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Trying to understand why the approval process has to take so long.

Merlyns_Tim

Star Member
Nov 14, 2012
104
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
This is something I've wondered about for a long time and I'm certain has also been on other peoples minds as months and sometimes years go by for husbands and wives living in other countries due to what seem like very excessive wait times. What is it about approving things that takes so much time?

In Canada us Sponsors have a relatively easy time. Our paperwork is short and quite uncomplicated. If we need something we make a quick phone call to the appropriate government office and it's in our mail box a couple of days later. We are trusted and in pretty much every case a simple photocopy of our original documents is good enough. I think in most cases us sponsors are approved very quickly, and then things are passed onto the spouses country where in many cases it can take from one year and up for a visa to finally be issued.

I can only speak for my own experience with a Filipina. I was blown away with how everything there has to be some sort of special authenticated government document, Marriage certificates, annulment or death certificates (no divorce in the Philippines) police certificates from all the places a person's lived, FBI clearances if your spouse has ever been in the US for more than 6 months, etc, etc, .... which to me begs the question, ... if these documents are government authenticated, and I'm sure the CIC officers must have a good eye for something authentic vs. something made up on a home computer, why is it not as easy as going down a check list and just checking off that everything is there and authentic, .. looking at the proofs of relationship, family etc, and stamping it approved (if all of the documents and paperwork ad up)?

To the average person like myself who marries outside Canada I think that's what we expect, because it just doesn't seem like it should be all that complicated.
I'll admit I've really gotten upset with having my wife kept from me for so long (15 months and counting so far since our documents were sent in) and I've even blown off steam at my local MP's office, Jason Kenney's office, and yes even Stephen Harper's office over how long a spousal process takes. Unfortunately one voice does very little as far as changing things.

A few bad apples have spoiled it for countless couples who should be living together soon after marriage.
The best and most exciting time in any couples relationship is after they're married and that's something this entire process strips from them, because you're straight out of the ecstasy of having a new wife or husband and straight into the stress of wondering if and when they'll actually be allowed to live with you.
 

canadianwoman

VIP Member
Nov 6, 2009
6,200
284
Category........
Visa Office......
Accra, Ghana
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
30-01-2008
Interview........
05-05-2009
One theory: the wait times are much longer for some visa offices than others. Usually this pairs up pretty well with countries where either the government doesn't want a lot of immigrants from, or where there is a lot of marriage fraud. So by having absurdly long wait times, they are hoping the fraudsters give up. Likewise with the appeals: if you've waited almost 2 years, just to get a refusal, then have to wait a year to get your appeal hearing, then have to wait months to a year to finish processing (if you won the appeal): this must discourage some people from continuing.
My fear that it also makes people who had genuine relationships at the beginning break up - the stress, and being apart so long damages what started out as a real relationship.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,941
22,180
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Merlyns_Tim said:
why is it not as easy as going down a check list and just checking off that everything is there and authentic, .. looking at the proofs of relationship, family etc, and stamping it approved (if all of the documents and paperwork ad up)?
Unfortunately the fraudsters fake that stuff too. Educational, government and other official documents can be forged / faked quite easily in many parts of the world. Ditto for the relationship evidence. So it takes far more than just going through a simple check list to verify a relationship is real.

In my opinion there's a simple explanation and you are right to blame a few bad apples for ruining it for the rest of us.

We see evidence of this in so many other aspects of life.

Why do all of us have to go through long and painful security lines at every single airport around the world? A few bad apples.

We can get as frustrated as we want at officials for these process. But until we have no bad apples - I don't see immigration getting easier or airport security lines disappearing.
 

Merlyns_Tim

Star Member
Nov 14, 2012
104
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
canadianwoman said:
One theory: the wait times are much longer for some visa offices than others. Usually this pairs up pretty well with countries where either the government doesn't want a lot of immigrants from, or where there is a lot of marriage fraud. So by having absurdly long wait times, they are hoping the fraudsters give up. Likewise with the appeals: if you've waited almost 2 years, just to get a refusal, then have to wait a year to get your appeal hearing, then have to wait months to a year to finish processing (if you won the appeal): this must discourage some people from continuing.
My fear that it also makes people who had genuine relationships at the beginning break up - the stress, and being apart so long damages what started out as a real relationship.
Well yes, and another thought is how many genuine couples get driven to bankruptcy while being forced to wait longer than they should need to?
 

Merlyns_Tim

Star Member
Nov 14, 2012
104
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
scylla said:
Unfortunately the fraudsters fake that stuff too. Educational, government and other official documents can be forged / faked quite easily in many parts of the world. Ditto for the relationship evidence. So it takes far more than just going through a simple check list to verify a relationship is real.

In my opinion there's a simple explanation and you are right to blame a few bad apples for ruining it for the rest of us.

We see evidence of this in so many other aspects of life.

Why do all of us have to go through long and painful security lines at every single airport around the world? A few bad apples.

We can get as frustrated as we want at officials for these process. But until we have no bad apples - I don't see immigration getting easier or airport security lines disappearing.
Maybe something as simple as asking couples to share their social site accounts with the officers could clear up the genuine from the red flag types easier. If they look at Facebook for instance and see how the interaction is and has been, as well as how you interact with one another's families, it could be pretty obvious how you all feel about the entire relationship.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,941
22,180
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
I hear what you're staying - however not all couples use social media sites. My husband and I had been together for five years (living together for four of those years) by the time I sponsored him. But you wouldn't have been able to tell from our Facebook pages because we don't chose to share that kind of personal information with our 500+ friends (needless to say not all of them are close friend). We also never exchange messages using Facebook or any other social media site. And for the record, we are both IT professionals who own several computers each.

We had a lot of other proof. Possibly the biggest piece of evidence was that in those five years together - we took 27 trips together involving flights (and had electronic itineraries for each one showing both of our names on the same ticket).

Long story short - there is no one single measure / check / piece of evidence that can be applied to all couples to concretely determine if a relationship is legitimate. This is why the review isn't as simple as a check-list.
 

Merlyns_Tim

Star Member
Nov 14, 2012
104
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
scylla said:
I hear what you're staying - however not all couples use social media sites. My husband and I had been together for five years (living together for four of those years) by the time I sponsored him. But you wouldn't have been able to tell from our Facebook pages because we don't chose to share that kind of personal information with our 500+ friends (needless to say not all of them are close friend). We also never exchange messages using Facebook or any other social media site. And for the record, we are both IT professionals who own several computers each.

We had a lot of other proof. Possibly the biggest piece of evidence was that in those five years together - we took 27 trips together involving flights (and had electronic itineraries for each one showing both of our names on the same ticket).

Long story short - there is no one single measure / check / piece of evidence that can be applied to all couples to concretely determine if a relationship is legitimate. This is why the review isn't as simple as a check-list.
Point taken scylla, - with us however we have so many pictures on fb of the time I spent there, and me with my various nephews, nieces, sister in laws, brother in laws, new friends etc, plus my wife and I have shared a lot of cute stuff with one another's families. It could just act as another piece of concrete evidence for real couples, since I feel if someone's not genuine in most cases they aren't going to want to introduce you around to the people who mean most to them. :)
 

Creampop

Hero Member
Jun 15, 2012
876
16
124
Waterloo ON
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo closed > Ottawa > Finalized in LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
April 23rd, 2012
Doc's Request.
RPRF-September 14th, 2012
File Transfer...
7/23/12 > Ottawa 10/9/12 > LA
Med's Done....
April 10th, 2012
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
October 9th, 2012
VISA ISSUED...
CoPR issued Oct. 29, 2012 DM November 6th, 2012
LANDED..........
November 23rd, 2012
Merlyns_Tim said:
Maybe something as simple as asking couples to share their social site accounts with the officers could clear up the genuine from the red flag types easier. If they look at Facebook for instance and see how the interaction is and has been, as well as how you interact with one another's families, it could be pretty obvious how you all feel about the entire relationship.
And this works for everyone how? My husband does not use facebook or any other social media so what I should just hand them my computer and let them go thru what ever they want? not that I have anything to hide but thats invasion of my privacy, I understand how you feel being separated from your spouse tho my time was not as long as yours everyone here can understand it.

In 2010 there were 280,636 PR's issued in Canada (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2011/2011-02-13.asp) thats 5,397 applications a week that were approved that don't count the rejections. Each of those people not only sent an application packet but all the evidence to back up their application and from posts here there are people who send 10 lb boxes come on thats alot of crap to go thru I like that they do their background checks I like that they make sure the relationship is bonafide and you should to it's less of you tax money going to fix something that should have been caught in the beginning.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,941
22,180
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Merlyns_Tim said:
Point taken scylla, - with us however we have so many pictures on fb of the time I spent there, and me with my various nephews, nieces, sister in laws, brother in laws, new friends etc, plus my wife and I have shared a lot of cute stuff with one another's families. It could just act as another piece of concrete evidence for real couples, since I feel if someone's not genuine in most cases they aren't going to want to introduce you around to the people who mean most to them. :)
Absolutely true most of the time.

Sadly (and tragically) - not true all of the time as we sometimes see on this forum.

CIC is certainly on the look out for relationships that aren't genuine on either side. However they are also on the look out for relationships where the problems is only on one side (read: the Canadian thinks the relationship real but the non-Canadian is scamming them). I'm guessing the former is easier to spot than the latter.

And yes - scammer's families will sometimes get in on the act as well.

So once again, I think we're sadly down to a few rotten apples ruining it for the rest of us...
 

amikety

VIP Member
Dec 4, 2011
4,905
143
Calgary
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
15-01-2013
AOR Received.
2-2-2013
Med's Done....
12-10-2012
Passport Req..
9-07-2013
VISA ISSUED...
7-08-2013
LANDED..........
7-08-2013
Merlyns_Tim said:
Well yes, and another thought is how many genuine couples get driven to bankruptcy while being forced to wait longer than they should need to?
One thing to remember is this is a choice you made. Hopefully you educated yourself before going down this path.

We can be frustrated at the wait times and angry with the fraudsters that make sponsorship more difficult for all of us, but you are responsible for your choice.

Instead of looking at this so negatively, we should be happy Canada allows us to sponsor our spouse at all.
 

Merlyns_Tim

Star Member
Nov 14, 2012
104
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Creampop said:
And this works for everyone how? My husband does not use facebook or any other social media so what I should just hand them my computer and let them go thru what ever they want? not that I have anything to hide but thats invasion of my privacy, I understand how you feel being separated from your spouse tho my time was not as long as yours everyone here can understand it.

In 2010 there were 280,636 PR's issued in Canada (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2011/2011-02-13.asp) thats 5,397 applications a week that were approved that don't count the rejections. Each of those people not only sent an application packet but all the evidence to back up their application and from posts here there are people who send 10 lb boxes come on thats alot of crap to go thru I like that they do their background checks I like that they make sure the relationship is bonafide and you should to it's less of you tax money going to fix something that should have been caught in the beginning.
Don't get me wrong Creampop I don't want scammers or frauds here any more than anyone else does. As you said they cost us all money, but seems sometimes the innocent are hurt while things are scrutinized so heavily.
My wife just pointed out in one of the Manila forums the other day how a sponsor had passed away while waiting, and how devastated his wife was. I don't know the details but do know stress can be a killer. In 14 more days I'll be 61 and I can tell you right now my health as well as my wives have been severely affected by by all the stress and countless hours a day on the computer trying to encourage, and in some case calm the other down over the lack of positive movement.
I guess the fact that she should have had her visa long ago and has been sitting in an empty house with just a bed and her laptop, because I asked her to please be ready to leave stresses me more than anything.
We were told back in mid Sept. we had a great file with no issues, (Local MP's office checked for us) but because her medical had expired she had to redo that. She had it redone on Oct 01 and it went to the embassy on Oct. 15, ... so who would have thought she'd still be sitting in an empty home still waiting with Christmas almost on top of us?
 

Creampop

Hero Member
Jun 15, 2012
876
16
124
Waterloo ON
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo closed > Ottawa > Finalized in LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
April 23rd, 2012
Doc's Request.
RPRF-September 14th, 2012
File Transfer...
7/23/12 > Ottawa 10/9/12 > LA
Med's Done....
April 10th, 2012
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
October 9th, 2012
VISA ISSUED...
CoPR issued Oct. 29, 2012 DM November 6th, 2012
LANDED..........
November 23rd, 2012
what VO are you going thru? do they already have her passport? you never know it could just show up one day... if they asked for a new medical you can assume that everything else was good and they just wanted the updated medical to make sure she don't have anything infectious. I know it has been a long haul but you can see the light at the end of the tunnel...
 

Kiwi12

Star Member
Nov 21, 2012
129
5
Ontario
Category........
Visa Office......
Vegreville
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
05032012
AOR Received.
29-06-2012
File Transfer...
16102012
Interview........
Waived AIP:February 13, 2013
LANDED..........
December 20, 2013
I actually agree with all the points in this forum but I also agree that we do need to realize what we are getting ourselves into and need to look at all the possibilities of what may come as a result of this including file transfers, long waiting periods, denials and financial and emotional hardships. I am unhappy about the way things have been going for us but definitely have a backup plan in place if the wait becomes too long.
 

Merlyns_Tim

Star Member
Nov 14, 2012
104
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
amikety said:
One thing to remember is this is a choice you made. Hopefully you educated yourself before going down this path.

We can be frustrated at the wait times and angry with the fraudsters that make sponsorship more difficult for all of us, but you are responsible for your choice.

Instead of looking at this so negatively, we should be happy Canada allows us to sponsor our spouse at all.
I definitely wasn't educated enough when it came to the wait times. In fact I was very naive as far as how long the entire thing would take. We both were, .... but regardless knowing what we do now we'd still both do it all over again. I had options in Canada as well, and any one of them would have been so much easier, ... but I wouldn't trade off my wife for any one of those other options.
 

Merlyns_Tim

Star Member
Nov 14, 2012
104
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Creampop said:
what VO are you going thru? do they already have her passport? you never know it could just show up one day... if they asked for a new medical you can assume that everything else was good and they just wanted the updated medical to make sure she don't have anything infectious. I know it has been a long haul but you can see the light at the end of the tunnel...
She's going though Manila, and both her and her son sent in their passports and pictures right at the beginning with the rest of our documents. We do feel we're not far off but there's so much stress right now in not knowing what to do about Christmas.
Regardless of if she's here or not I cant leave her sit in a empty place alone on such a special day.
The light at the end of the tunnel is still a bit clouded but at least we feel it's withing view. ;)