TRV refused 2nd time. Now what?

[zcypher]

Hi friends,

I'm a Canadian citizen, trying to bring my girlfriend from the Philippines over for a visit (for just less than 3 weeks). She has now been refused twice, and as best I can tell she more than meets all the requirements.

• She has savings
• She has investments
• She has insurance (family members as beneficiaries)
• She has good employment, nearly 5 years full-time, employment certificate, vacation approval letter, tax statements
• She has a history of travel, two different countries, never over-stayed her visit
• Purpose of travel is probably the biggest legitimate challenge, we provided copious proof of relationship and were honest about the purpose of travel, so there's that

So here's the thing, the first refusal didn't even mention purpose of travel at all! All three reasons that were selected, IMO, were total BS. Employment status, travel history and financial status. How can they cite employment status and travel history at all, given the overwhelming documentation provided to that end? The fact that employment status wasn't mentioned in the second refusal letter at all makes it even more suspect. The second letter again cited travel history and financial status, but this time mentioned purpose of travel instead of employment status. She travels and never over stays. What more do they want? She has good income and more than enough money to afford the vacation, on top of already having paid for the plane ticket and so on. I get that purpose of travel being to visit the bf could be a legitimate roadblock for a VO reviewing the application, but they didn't even mention this at all in the first refusal, and looking at the application as a whole, I don't see why it should be a problem. Doesn't seem like due diligence is actually happening.

In the past, I brought my ex over without issues (who did not overstay), and she was unemployed and had no money at the time. To say this is frustrating would be an understatement. What can we do to satisfy the VO? At this point I'm not convinced the application is even being looked at properly. I'm not convinced that her saving more money, buying a property or anything like that will do anything to ensure she's approved if she applies again. When I had her consult an immigration lawyer, they had nothing of value to add.

Before just reapplying a third time, does anyone have any useful advice?

Thanks...

 

[scylla]

Where has she traveled? CIC only values travel to other countries requiring visas (e.g. US, UK, Europe). I assume her travel has been to countries where she doesn't require a visa to enter? If so, the travel history refusal reason makes sense. One way to strengthen her application would be to visit a country requiring a visa before reapplying.

Providing copious amount of evidence of your relationship unfortunately wasn't the best idea. What this did is demonstrate to CIC that she has ties to Canada (you) which then made them concerned she has plans to remain long term. This is most likely what the purpose of travel refusal reason means.

Unfortunately some countries have higher rates of visa abuse (i.e. overstaying or using the visa to move to Canada). So your girlfriend is paying the price of past visitors from her country who have abused their visa privileges.

Generally speaking, if there have been two refusals in quick succession, we advise against trying again until something significant changes in the applicant's profile. However if you want to reapply soon, I would recommend you order her GCMS notes to see the detailed reasons for the refusals. They will take 30 days to arrive but will give you more info on why she was refused.

Good luck.

 

[zcypher]

Sorry but I just can't understand the rationale behind that. I don't think there is any such thing as not needing a Visa to enter. When you travel to those countries, you're actually still getting a Visa, the only difference being that it's just stamped on arrival instead of obtained in advance. All of the same typical restrictions + obligation to leave by its expiry date are still there. Is this idea that visiting such countries is worth less for travel history actually information that has come from CIC? I'm having a really hard time finding solid useful info about this, since other people's experiences are not exactly reliable.

And for filipino citizens, they still undergo the same crazy scrutiny when leaving their own airport. So far, she has traveled to Singapore and Maldives. She was questioned extensively upon leaving Manila, and it's not uncommon for Filipino citizens to be rejected departure even with valid Visa/travel docs in hand. Since it's unlikely a third submission will be approved, she'll probably travel somewhere else again this year.

This all seems so unreasonable.... What are people supposed to do? Just keep reapplying at $100 a pop forever? it seems that eventually that would backfire anyway. What else can a person do to assure a VO that they will return home?

 

[Jalex23]

Sorry but I just can't understand the rationale behind that. I don't think there is any such thing as not needing a Visa to enter. When you travel to those countries, you're actually still getting a Visa, the only difference being that it's just stamped on arrival instead of obtained in advance.

You are confusing a status with a visa. A visa is a stamp on your passport, it is a solid piece of paper. A "stamp on arrival" is not a visa, this is an entry seal which grants the person a certain status. In this case the confusion arises from using "visitor visa" as a synonim for TRV and visitor status.

People from "visa exempt countries" do not get a visa, they only get a status. A visa then is the right to be given a status.

And for filipino citizens, they still undergo the same crazy scrutiny when leaving their own airport. So far, she has traveled to Singapore and Maldives. She was questioned extensively upon leaving Manila, and it's not uncommon for Filipino citizens to be rejected departure even with valid Visa/travel docs in hand.

What filipino citizens undergo or not abroad is of no concern to Canada (for good and for bad).

This all seems so unreasonable.... What are people supposed to do? Just keep reapplying at $100 a pop forever? it seems that eventually that would backfire anyway. What else can a person do to assure a VO that they will return home?

People are supposed to have a solid application when visiting Canada.

Unfortunately she comes from a country where people cannot be trusted. That is the whole point of a visa. Canada assumes that filipino citizens will abuse their visa, so it is their duty to prove otherwise.

I add to what Scylla said. Unless you have a solid application, I wouldn't bother reapplying, it will only worsen the situation.

 

[zcypher]

Welp, that is confusing. So what you're saying is that because one's passport is stamped upon arrival, this is therefore not "a visa" (instead, it's "a seal"), so this simply "doesn't count" as a history of travel, regardless of the fact that the same sort of implications and restrictions and expectations to leave before its expiry would apply? All the people who were approved but only have that type of history of travel were just lucky and should have been refused?

It is bothersome that the reasons for refusal differed between the two applications. Her situation didn't change, so what can account for this discrepancy?

I've had her collect additional documents in an attempt to prove strong family ties, and proof that she's paying and is expected to continue paying where she lives (it's not property ownership, but at least it's something?), proof of putting her brother through school and sending money to her family, and rewrote the letters (invitation, cover letter, purpose of travel) to include much more detail than before. She already has proof of employment and its income + vacation leave approval letter. She just got a raise too, so the new certificate of employment shows this new income which is around 3x the national average. Maybe it would help to more strongly emphasize how her employment affords her a good quality of life there.

Traveling to another country that requires a visa is likely to entail exactly the same challenges, is it not? I am reading all about the same things happening to people applying as visitors in other countries such as the US. There isn't enough time to apply for the case file notes or book a trip elsewhere, but there is enough time to apply again. If that fails then there would be no choice but to cancel everything and apply for the notes to find out what's really going on with it. I can't trust their generic responses if they are different every time.

It's hard to guess if the new application would be strong enough. Sigh

 

[davidb57]

Welp, that is confusing. So what you're saying is that because one's passport is stamped upon arrival, this is therefore not "a visa" (instead, it's "a seal"), so this simply "doesn't count" as a history of travel, regardless of the fact that the same sort of implications and restrictions and expectations to leave before its expiry would apply? All the people who were approved but only have that type of history of travel were just lucky and should have been refused?

It is bothersome that the reasons for refusal differed between the two applications. Her situation didn't change, so what can account for this discrepancy?

I've had her collect additional documents in an attempt to prove strong family ties, and proof that she's paying and is expected to continue paying where she lives (it's not property ownership, but at least it's something?), proof of putting her brother through school and sending money to her family, and rewrote the letters (invitation, cover letter, purpose of travel) to include much more detail than before. She already has proof of employment and its income + vacation leave approval letter. She just got a raise too, so the new certificate of employment shows this new income which is around 3x the national average. Maybe it would help to more strongly emphasize how her employment affords her a good quality of life there.

Traveling to another country that requires a visa is likely to entail exactly the same challenges, is it not? I am reading all about the same things happening to people applying as visitors in other countries such as the US. There isn't enough time to apply for the case file notes or book a trip elsewhere, but there is enough time to apply again. If that fails then there would be no choice but to cancel everything and apply for the notes to find out what's really going on with it. I can't trust their generic responses if they are different every time.

It's hard to guess if the new application would be strong enough. Sigh

How long did they take to reject the application?
I have applied for a visa while my wife is sponsoring me (outland) and it's been 3 weeks since I applied. I will let you know if it gets approved.

 

[zcypher]

How long did they take to reject the application?
I have applied for a visa while my wife is sponsoring me (outland) and it's been 3 weeks since I applied. I will let you know if it gets approved.

From my own personal experiences they don't take too long. This is just with the embassy in manila though, so processing can differ from other locations and volume of requests at any given time obviously. In my case, each time application was submitted, estimated processing time was checked and usually showing 10-12 business days, and responses were received around that time. The very first time I went through this (exgf over a year ago), the application was updated requesting for her to submit her passport. It took a couple more days from that point, then she had her passport back + visa. In retrospect, it's miraculous that she had been approved, just dumb luck i guess. This time around I'm experiencing what I hear from everyone else.

I wish you better luck than my own!

 

[Jalex23]

Welp, that is confusing. So what you're saying is that because one's passport is stamped upon arrival, this is therefore not "a visa" (instead, it's "a seal"), so this simply "doesn't count" as a history of travel,

No. I never said that.

It is bothersome that the reasons for refusal differed between the two applications. Her situation didn't change, so what can account for this discrepancy?

Different agents evaluate the applications.

I've had her collect additional documents in an attempt to prove strong family ties, and proof that she's paying and is expected to continue paying where she lives (it's not property ownership, but at least it's something?), proof of putting her brother through school and sending money to her family, and rewrote the letters (invitation, cover letter, purpose of travel) to include much more detail than before. She already has proof of employment and its income + vacation leave approval letter. She just got a raise too, so the new certificate of employment shows this new income which is around 3x the national average. Maybe it would help to more strongly emphasize how her employment affords her a good quality of life there.

Good luck.

Traveling to another country that requires a visa is likely to entail exactly the same challenges, is it not? I am reading all about the same things happening to people applying as visitors in other countries such as the US. There isn't enough time to apply for the case file notes or book a trip elsewhere, but there is enough time to apply again. If that fails then there would be no choice but to cancel everything and apply for the notes to find out what's really going on with it. I can't trust their generic responses if they are different every time.

Yes, she would face similar challenges, that is the whole point, that if she convinces one country then the others can be less severe.

She doesn't need to travel to countries that require a visa. Many people get TRVs without previous travelling. It al resides on your specifics and how strong is your application.

 

[bellaluna]

Before just reapplying a third time, does anyone have any useful advice?

Thanks...

Checking Occam's razor in the assumption she is applying online, is she uploading the documents correctly? I believe there was a case in the past where an applicant would attempt to upload multiple files in one slot, but the online site only accepts the most recent file, so not all documents end up getting sent.

 

[zcypher]

Thank you for the continued support, it means a lot to us. Thank you for helping me better understand the travel history requirement.

Yes, the application is being made online, and yes the documents are being correctly uploaded. A service such as www.ilovepdf.com/merge_pdf is being used to combine the documents into one file once they're ready, it is then rechecked for completeness, accuracy, quality and meeting the filesize requirement for upload.

 

[zcypher]

Question for those who may know from their experience, in the "Proof of Relationship" section, for a scenario like mine where I am inviting my girlfriend to visit me, is it appropriate to include proof of relationship to her family members / "family ties" items within this category? Or would that be frowned upon / looked as "improperly preparing your application"?

Trying to understand if the category is exclusively for proving her relationship to me, since our relationship isn't working our favor for the purposes of a TRV.

 

[bellaluna]

^^ Gotcha. If that's the case, I'm honestly also puzzled why she's been rejected if her profile is as you say it is.

Question for those who may know from their experience, in the "Proof of Relationship" section, for a scenario like mine where I am inviting my girlfriend to visit me, is it appropriate to include proof of relationship to her family members / "family ties" items within this category? Or would that be frowned upon / looked as "improperly preparing your application"?

Trying to understand if the category is exclusively for proving her relationship to me, since our relationship isn't working our favor for the purposes of a TRV.

Are you referring to her relationship to her family in the Philippines? Or does she have family in Canada?

I second scylla's suggestion to order the case notes (if you haven't yet), so you find out what exactly it is in her application that made the officer suspicious.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/atip/requests-atip.asp

 

[zcypher]

Thanks bellaluna. My initial hope was that I could sufficiently bolster the application in time, before needing to cancel everything. There was enough time for another application to be processed, but not enough time to order and wait for GCMS and reapply. But now it's reaching the point where she will probably end up having to cancel her leaves in order to be able to rebook them later, before we would get a response from the application. So it's all moot now, I will order the GCMS notes and hope that there is just something stupid and easily corrected, otherwise I'll be taking all the advice to build a stronger application for next time.

To answer your question - she does not have any family in Canada, I am referring to her relationship with her family in the Philippines. My question is whether documenting proof of family ties to her family in the Philippines is appropriate in the "Proof of Relationship" section, because I was under the impression that section is specific to documenting proof of her relationship to me. So I'm wondering if I was mistaken about that.

I have read about cases where applications were refused for reasons like the applicant's name was not shown on the bank statement, stuff like that should be easy to correct. I checked hers and her name is there, as is the name of the institution, it's a proper bank statement - but, it's not located at the top of the page (her name), so, if one would to just glance and not carefully read it, it could easily be missed. I'm sure that's probably not the case though.

There is definitely a lot that we can improve either way, such as rewording the letters to include only facts that are backed up with the documented evidence, and in more of a point form so it's easier for the VO not to lose track of our important facts in long paragraphs/sentences. The first application only contained 3 months bank statements which I realize was a mistake, we'll include 6 months this time. I've gotten approval from my company to work abroad this fall, so I will use their statement in support of a reason why she would not overstay in Canada (because I won't be here). Bryanna helped me a lot with all this, including other ways to demonstrate strong family ties that had never occurred to either of us.

I guess since the big challenge is that she is a "young single Filipina" that is "trying to visit bf in Canada", I will try to most strongly emphasize all the evidence of reasons she would not overstay and must go back, hopefully it will be enough to outweigh that she does not have the "ideal" travel history, and hopefully the reduced stay (2 weeks instead of 3) will also help. This forum has been an amazing resource, I just wish I had been smart enough to do this part first before applying!

 

[zcypher]

Also she provided only one year of income tax return initially, I didn't realize that it might matter, but now have the past 3 years returns prepared for next time.

Here is the rundown of her money situation, so you can tell me if I have been too optimistic.

• She has equivalent of about CAD $3000 in the form of checking/savings accounts and a bank draft in her name available for the trip.
• She has around CAD $500 (yes, it's modest, but it's something) investment account with deposits made automatically every pay period.
• The investment account is also an insurance policy, with her siblings and parents designated as beneficiaries.
• Plane tickets and travel insurance are already paid for; I am told this was a no-no, but at least cancellation insurance was included.
• I'm hosting her - picking her up at the airport, driving her everywhere, staying at my place, feeding her, etc. Her "available funds" are only required for unexpected circumstances and shopping/discretionary spending.
• Duration of trip being requested is only 2 weeks this time.

Her income is just shy of PHP 400k/year which is roughly 3x the national average, it is call center work which some people here may look down on, but over there it's actually quite a good job, she's been there for 4 and a half years, recently got trained for new skills (+pay bump). When you do the straight up currency conversion, that doesn't look so rosy (just over CAD $10k/year), but the cost of living adjusted reality is that she has a similar ratio of income to expenses as a person doing reasonably well over here, and she can afford to send money to her parents every month, put her brother through university, support herself, travel frequently and still save money. In fact, food and travel is so cheap over there that she can pretty much afford to travel more than me! She is basically the bread-winner of her family, her life there is good and not one of abject poverty and struggle.

Having said that, a Manila-Edmonton trip is still much cheaper for me than it is for her, so of course I would have felt horrible trying to make her pay for everything herself when I'm the one that wanted her to visit here in the first place. We laugh about it, but we actually had arguments about that (letting me pay for anything), she's always paid her own way and absolutely hates accepting help. I realize that this is just anecdotal and not helpful for the VO.

It's probably not relevant, but we work for different departments of the same employer, which is how we met. The employer knows of our relationship, has cooperated completely with supplying all the necessary documents for the visa application, fully expects her return which is documented in their approval letter, the approval letter and the certificate of employment are of course printed on official company letterhead and signed + scanned in. Unsurprisingly, no one contacted the employer to validate her employment status or income. But what is surprising is the fact that they mentioned employment status as one of the things that was wrong! But I suppose it's all just generic as has been pointed out.

 

[bellaluna]

^ Ah, to be blunt, I think her being a call centre employee didn't work in her favour at all. Those are among the occupations I notice are frequently flagged as "employment status" as a reason of refusal. That, and nursing, for Filipinos.
The "proof of relationship" section is really only for proving the relationship to the Canadian host, so your assumption is correct. It's not for her family in the Philippines.
Now that you provided more details, her case was somewhat of a long shot, especially with her finances. The ITRs do not help as much as liquid assets, unfortunately. Even if you do pay for her expenses, she essentially has to show that she can afford the trip on her own, and with the $3000 she presented, that's not the case.

She's already been refused twice, and so now I'm not sure applying a third time so soon is a good idea, until something in her situation changes, like a pay raise or promotion, or she simply has to save up a bit more, which I can imagine is tough because you say she's the breadwinner in her family.