Traveling 2-weeks with valid PR card but short 1-mo on RO buffer. Spouse and 2 children all RO compliant.

[sails_black]

Hi, we're a family of 4 (myself, my wife, and our two children), with the following situation:

• all of us have been residing in Canada for the last 18 months with valid PR cards that expire in 2021 (parents in July, children in September)
• my children and I will reach our PR cards' expiry dates having fully satisfied our RO by a margin of 2+ months
• my wife will reach her PR card's expiry date short 10 days (assuming she doesn't leave Canada before then)
• I'm employed full-time in Canada. Wife is a stay-at-home mom. Our children are enrolled in primary schools here.

We're debating whether we can travel 2 weeks outside Canada in 2021 before any of our PR cards expire. My children and I should theoretically have nothing to worry about as we have 2+ month RO buffer each, but as we come back, my wife's RO buffer would be short 24 days (the 10 days she's already short now + the 14 days from the trip).

Her PR card would still be valid, so she would theoretically be allowed in, but what are the chances that she would be given a hard time at the border or in the worst case be handed a removal order because she's short those days?

Thanks.

 

[bluffmaster88]

Hi, we're a family of 4 (myself, my wife, and our two children), with the following situation:

• all of us have been residing in Canada for the last 18 months with valid PR cards that expire in 2021 (parents in July, children in September)
• my children and I will reach our PR cards' expiry dates having fully satisfied our RO by a margin of 2+ months
• my wife will reach her PR card's expiry date short 10 days (assuming she doesn't leave Canada before then)
• I'm employed full-time in Canada. Wife is a stay-at-home mom. Our children are enrolled in primary schools here.

We're debating whether we can travel 2 weeks outside Canada in 2021 before any of our PR cards expire. My children and I should theoretically have nothing to worry about as we have 2+ month RO buffer each, but as we come back, my wife's RO buffer would be short 24 days (the 10 days she's already short now + the 14 days from the trip).

Her PR card would still be valid, so she would theoretically be allowed in, but what are the chances that she would be given a hard time at the border or in the worst case be handed a removal order because she's short those days?

Thanks.

They won't give removal order straight away for PR holders. CBSA will report you for not meeting RO and let you enter into Canada. You will be given chance to explain why you weren't able to meet RO. Then they will revoke PR if they aren't satisfied with your reasons.

In your case, the chances of having hard time at the border is less.

 

[canuck78]

Hi, we're a family of 4 (myself, my wife, and our two children), with the following situation:

• all of us have been residing in Canada for the last 18 months with valid PR cards that expire in 2021 (parents in July, children in September)
• my children and I will reach our PR cards' expiry dates having fully satisfied our RO by a margin of 2+ months
• my wife will reach her PR card's expiry date short 10 days (assuming she doesn't leave Canada before then)
• I'm employed full-time in Canada. Wife is a stay-at-home mom. Our children are enrolled in primary schools here.

We're debating whether we can travel 2 weeks outside Canada in 2021 before any of our PR cards expire. My children and I should theoretically have nothing to worry about as we have 2+ month RO buffer each, but as we come back, my wife's RO buffer would be short 24 days (the 10 days she's already short now + the 14 days from the trip).

Her PR card would still be valid, so she would theoretically be allowed in, but what are the chances that she would be given a hard time at the border or in the worst case be handed a removal order because she's short those days?

Thanks.

PR card expiry date is not what determines RO it is 5 year from the landing date so none of you seem to have any buffer time or seem to be compliant. Personally wouldn't take the risk of travel especially given covid.

 

[sails_black]

PR card expiry date is not what determines RO it is 5 year from the landing date so none of you seem to have any buffer time or seem to be compliant. Personally wouldn't take the risk of travel especially given covid.

Thank you for your response. Could you please clarify your comment about none of us being compliant? My understanding is that the RO is 730 days of physical presence during the 5 year period preceding the application for renewal (not following landing). Since we will be renewing in 2021, and each of us will be able to show that we'd been present for at least 730 days in the 5 year period preceding our application for renewal, I was assuming that we're "in the clear" as long as we remain in Canada until those 730 days have passed and we've renewed our PR cards, and that (in the case of my children and mine) we can safely travel outside Canada so long as it is not for longer than the buffer that we currently have and that we return before our cards expire.

 

[sails_black]

They won't give removal order straight away for PR holders. CBSA will report you for not meeting RO and let you enter into Canada. You will be given chance to explain why you weren't able to meet RO. Then they will revoke PR if they aren't satisfied with your reasons.

In your case, the chances of having hard time at the border is less.

Thank you for your response. I assume that by "CBSA will report you for not meeting RO" you mean the same thing as "having hard time at the border", correct?

 

[canuck78]

Thank you for your response. Could you please clarify your comment about none of us being compliant? My understanding is that the RO is 730 days of physical presence during the 5 year period preceding the application for renewal (not following landing). Since we will be renewing in 2021, and each of us will be able to show that we'd been present for at least 730 days in the 5 year period preceding our application for renewal, I was assuming that we're "in the clear" as long as we remain in Canada until those 730 days have passed and we've renewed our PR cards, and that (in the case of my children and mine) we can safely travel outside Canada so long as it is not for longer than the buffer that we currently have and that we return before our cards expire.

RO is 730 days in the 5 years since your landing date or 730 days in the past 5 years once you make it past the first 5 years since your landing date. If you are saying you only have 2 months buffer from your PR card expiry dates you are unlikely to be compliant or just compliant if you are looking at 730 days during the 5 years from your landing date. As long as you don't leave Canada or sponsor anyone a lack of compliance isn't an issue

 

[scylla]

Thank you for your response. Could you please clarify your comment about none of us being compliant? My understanding is that the RO is 730 days of physical presence during the 5 year period preceding the application for renewal (not following landing). Since we will be renewing in 2021, and each of us will be able to show that we'd been present for at least 730 days in the 5 year period preceding our application for renewal, I was assuming that we're "in the clear" as long as we remain in Canada until those 730 days have passed and we've renewed our PR cards, and that (in the case of my children and mine) we can safely travel outside Canada so long as it is not for longer than the buffer that we currently have and that we return before our cards expire.

It's not tied to your PR card expiry date. It's a rolling requirement (meaning you have to meet it at any given time). Yes, IRCC will use the five years preceding your application date. However from an ongoing obligation basis and in terms of "being in the clear", the calculation starts from the date you landed in Canada and became PRs (not your PR card expiry date).

 

[sails_black]

RO is 730 days in the 5 years since your landing date or 730 days in the past 5 years once you make it past the first 5 years since your landing date. If you are saying you only have 2 months buffer from your PR card expiry dates you are unlikely to be compliant or just compliant if you are looking at 730 days during the 5 years from your landing date. As long as you don't leave Canada or sponsor anyone a lack of compliance isn't an issue

Is the part about "landing date" new? Because this is what the canada.ca site says about the requirement:

"To keep your permanent resident status, you must have been in Canada for at least 730 days during the last five years. These 730 days don’t need to be continuous. Some of your time abroad may count towards the 730 days. See what time abroad counts towards your permanent resident status."

It doesn't say anything about 730 days in the first 5 years since landing date. It's always looking at the last 5 years as of the date of making the determination as to whether the obligation has been met or not.

 

[DEEPCUR]

Is the part about "landing date" new? Because this is what the canada.ca site says about the requirement:

"To keep your permanent resident status, you must have been in Canada for at least 730 days during the last five years. These 730 days don’t need to be continuous. Some of your time abroad may count towards the 730 days. See what time abroad counts towards your permanent resident status."

It doesn't say anything about 730 days in the first 5 years since landing date. It's always looking at the last 5 years as of the date of making the determination as to whether the obligation has been met or not.

It doesn't state about PR card expiry either..it works like this. First 5 years clock starts on the day you land/become PR and ends exactly after 5 years within which you need to have 730 days to be compliant. After 5th year completion, it'd be in given last 5 years.

 

[canuck78]

Is the part about "landing date" new? Because this is what the canada.ca site says about the requirement:

"To keep your permanent resident status, you must have been in Canada for at least 730 days during the last five years. These 730 days don’t need to be continuous. Some of your time abroad may count towards the 730 days. See what time abroad counts towards your permanent resident status."

It doesn't say anything about 730 days in the first 5 years since landing date. It's always looking at the last 5 years as of the date of making the determination as to whether the obligation has been met or not.

Very sure it's based on the landing date. In fact if you apply for your PR card right after landing the expiry date is usually 5 years plus 2-3 months so you have time to meet the 730 days within 5 years and hopefully renew your PR card.

 

[kathysrazor]

It is always 2 years out of 5. The landing date thing is simply that they give you the benefit of the doubt, so you are fine as long as you could still meet it.
In other words, if you leave for a year and return after landing, they assume you will be present the next 4 and you are fine.
After 5 years, they don’t have to assume any more, and just look back five years.

At any point, ever, if they look back 5 years (plus assumption for PRs of less than 5 years) and you don’t have two, you can lose PR. They have to check, though, and make a determination for that to happen. When you apply for PR card or PRTD, they must check. When you cross the border, they may start the process for a hearing and then they will check.

 

[kathysrazor]

Your card is merely presumptive proof of status, nothing more. Mine expired, and I never renewed it. There was no need for me pre-COVID lockdowns. Your actual obligation has nothing to do with your card, other than they are required to determine your status to renew them.

 

[armoured]

Is the part about "landing date" new? Because this is what the canada.ca site says about the requirement:

"To keep your permanent resident status, you must have been in Canada for at least 730 days during the last five years. These 730 days don’t need to be continuous. Some of your time abroad may count towards the 730 days. See what time abroad counts towards your permanent resident status."

It doesn't say anything about 730 days in the first 5 years since landing date. It's always looking at the last 5 years as of the date of making the determination as to whether the obligation has been met or not.

Here's what the law says:

• a) a permanent resident complies with the residency obligation with respect to a five-year period if, on each of a total of at least 730 days in that five-year period, they are
  • (i) physically present in Canada, [...]
• (b) it is sufficient for a permanent resident to demonstrate at examination
  • (i) if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident;
  • (ii) if they have been a permanent resident for five years or more, that they have met the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately before the examination;

Note that where the law says "a" five-year period, this means any five year period. That would include five years from the date of landing. (A day after the five year landing anniversary, they will calculate from the day after the lending, and so on)

The part (b) (ii) for those who have been residents for less than five years means that at examination (eg entering Canada) they will effectively 'give credit for' the remaining days in that first five year period - the assumption will be given that the PR can (will) remain in Canada for the remainder of the period.

It may be easier to calculate the following way: being in Canada 730 days with respect to any five year period means that anyone out of Canada more than 1095 days in any five year period is out of compliance. (Simple calc, five years * 365 minus 730). This is a bit easier in that no need to calculate days of presence in Canada plus the days remaining to the five year anniversary of first landing - also for some may be easier to track days out of Canada. [Note I've not accounted for leap years etc so one-two days off - if that close best to calculate exactly]

 

[sails_black]

Here's what the law says:

• a) a permanent resident complies with the residency obligation with respect to a five-year period if, on each of a total of at least 730 days in that five-year period, they are
  • (i) physically present in Canada, [...]
• (b) it is sufficient for a permanent resident to demonstrate at examination
  • (i) if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident;
  • (ii) if they have been a permanent resident for five years or more, that they have met the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately before the examination;

Note that where the law says "a" five-year period, this means any five year period. That would include five years from the date of landing. (A day after the five year landing anniversary, they will calculate from the day after the lending, and so on)

The part (b) (ii) for those who have been residents for less than five years means that at examination (eg entering Canada) they will effectively 'give credit for' the remaining days in that first five year period - the assumption will be given that the PR can (will) remain in Canada for the remainder of the period.

It may be easier to calculate the following way: being in Canada 730 days with respect to any five year period means that anyone out of Canada more than 1095 days in any five year period is out of compliance. (Simple calc, five years * 365 minus 730). This is a bit easier in that no need to calculate days of presence in Canada plus the days remaining to the five year anniversary of first landing - also for some may be easier to track days out of Canada. [Note I've not accounted for leap years etc so one-two days off - if that close best to calculate exactly]

Thank you, this was very helpful. Seeing the actual language makes it much clearer!