Toward Understanding Bill C-6 to Amend Citizenship Act; new 3/5 rule plus

[admontreal]

By that logic, we are all of African descent, since the remains of the earliest humans were found there. But how many times have you said that to refer to your origins?

Being from that part of the world, I can assure you that nationalism runs high and no one says they are of Persian descent unless they are actually from Iran.

We shouldn't go to the extremes (Africa ). Per my understanding her family is from Herat, which is close to the Iran Border. In the border cities usually families have strong ties with the other side, so this shouldn't be a surprise whether she was born in Afghanistan or Iran.
What I was referring to in terms of Persian descent is her exact ethnicity, as 47% of the Afghan people are Pashto (more from the other side of the country) while the rest being Tadjik, Hazara, Turkmen, etc. (which have strong ties with Iran and other neighboring countries).

But if you say that you're from that part of the world, you definitely know more than I do !

 

[marcher]

We shouldn't go to the extremes (Africa ). Per my understanding her family is from Herat, which is close to the Iran Border. In the border cities usually families have strong ties with the other side, so this shouldn't be a surprise whether she was born in Afghanistan or Iran.
What I was referring to in terms of Persian descent is her exact ethnicity, as 47% of the Afghan people are Pashto (more from the other side of the country) while the rest being Tadjik, Hazara, Turkmen, etc. (which have strong ties with Iran and other neighboring countries).

But if you say that you're from that part of the world, you definitely know more than I do !

Ethnicity has nothing to do with nationality. You can be Canadian Persian the same way you can be Afghan Persian or Iranian Persian. The essence is her application details were not true; and the law is clear about wrong information in these cases; regardless of whether it was intentional or not. Sadly, the law will not apply to her because she is a Minister. It will be interesting how they pull this one, because opposition are keeping their eyes wide open.

 

[admontreal]

Ethnicity has nothing to do with nationality. You can be Canadian Persian the same way you can be Afghan Persian or Iranian Persian. The essence is her application details were not true; and the law is clear about wrong information in these cases; regardless of whether it was intentional or not. Sadly, the law will not apply to her because she is a Minister. It will be interesting how they pull this one, because opposition are keeping their eyes wide open.

She never lied about her initial nationality, she is Afghan and was an Afghan national when she was accepted as a refugee. What is the essence of her application then ?

 

[torontosm]

She never lied about her initial nationality, she is Afghan and was an Afghan national when she was accepted as a refugee. What is the essence of her application then ?

She lied about her place of birth. Others that have done the same have been stripped of their citizenship by the Trudeau government, but apparently JT has different rules for his supporters. So much for his tired "A Canadian is a Canadian" propaganda.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/maryam-monsef-could-be-stripped-of-her-citizenship-without-a-hearing-now-that-she-has-revealed-she-was-born-in-iran

 

[marcher]

She lied about her place of birth. Others that have done the same have been stripped of their citizenship by the Trudeau government, but apparently JT has different rules for his supporters. So much for his tired "A Canadian is a Canadian" propaganda.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/maryam-monsef-could-be-stripped-of-her-citizenship-without-a-hearing-now-that-she-has-revealed-she-was-born-in-iran

Update: A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian; unless he/she is a Liberal Minister

 

[dpenabill]

She lied about her place of birth. Others that have done the same have been stripped of their citizenship by the Trudeau government, but apparently JT has different rules for his supporters. So much for his tired "A Canadian is a Canadian" propaganda.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/maryam-monsef-could-be-stripped-of-her-citizenship-without-a-hearing-now-that-she-has-revealed-she-was-born-in-iran

Not true that Maryam Monsef lied.

Moreover, the headline in the Post article is grossly misleading and there really is no practical prospect of her citizenship being stripped.

Many times discrepancies in applications, and this is especially true for refugees, are not due to lying or making a material misrepresentation. Otherwise, every person applying for citizenship who made any mistake in their application would be subject to having their citizenship revoked (the Federal Court cases are rife with examples of CIC reworking residency calculations after discrepancies are identified, and if the applicant nonetheless met the requirements, citizenship was granted).

Does not work that way because that is not how things work in reality. We all make mistakes.

In the referenced case here, in particular, the individual was a child and the paperwork was completed and signed by others; thus, this individual made no representations personally and thus could not have "lied."

There is another topic here where much of this was discussed in detail, with references and links to other sources of more reliable information about the case and illuminating that the Post headline was, at best, gross hyperbole.

 

[itsmyid]

Not true that Maryam Monsef lied.

Moreover, the headline in the Post article is grossly misleading and there really is no practical prospect of her citizenship being stripped.

Many times discrepancies in applications, and this is especially true for refugees, are not due to lying or making a material misrepresentation. Otherwise, every person applying for citizenship who made any mistake in their application would be subject to having their citizenship revoked (the Federal Court cases are rife with examples of CIC reworking residency calculations after discrepancies are identified, and if the applicant nonetheless met the requirements, citizenship was granted).

Does not work that way because that is not how things work in reality. We all make mistakes.

In the referenced case here, in particular, the individual was a child and the paperwork was completed and signed by others; thus, this individual made no representations personally and thus could not have "lied."

There is another topic here where much of this was discussed in detail, with references and links to other sources of more reliable information about the case and illuminating that the Post headline was, at best, gross hyperbole.

I believe she didn't lie and she had no control over this matter when she was a child, but after all these years into her adulthood and she just found out recently? That's a big stretch ... unless she lives in a soap opera where the mother keeps a big secret for years just to reveal it for the season finale

 

[torontosm]

Not true that Maryam Monsef lied.

Moreover, the headline in the Post article is grossly misleading and there really is no practical prospect of her citizenship being stripped.

Many times discrepancies in applications, and this is especially true for refugees, are not due to lying or making a material misrepresentation. Otherwise, every person applying for citizenship who made any mistake in their application would be subject to having their citizenship revoked (the Federal Court cases are rife with examples of CIC reworking residency calculations after discrepancies are identified, and if the applicant nonetheless met the requirements, citizenship was granted).

Does not work that way because that is not how things work in reality. We all make mistakes.

In the referenced case here, in particular, the individual was a child and the paperwork was completed and signed by others; thus, this individual made no representations personally and thus could not have "lied."

There is another topic here where much of this was discussed in detail, with references and links to other sources of more reliable information about the case and illuminating that the Post headline was, at best, gross hyperbole.

So, according to you, it's not Monsef's fault becuase she didn't sign the forms as she was a minor? What about this case where a man who arrived to Canada at the age of 9 months was stripped because his father failed to disclose a criminal conviction? Where was Trudeau's (and your) sympathy in this case?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/citizenship-revocation-trudeau-harper-1.3795733

Again, it seems like rules apply differently to JT's cronies than they do to the rest of us.

 

[admontreal]

She lied about her place of birth. Others that have done the same have been stripped of their citizenship by the Trudeau government, but apparently JT has different rules for his supporters. So much for his tired "A Canadian is a Canadian" propaganda.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/maryam-monsef-could-be-stripped-of-her-citizenship-without-a-hearing-now-that-she-has-revealed-she-was-born-in-iran

We have no proof that she lied. And honestly I don't see where the place of birth is 'the essence of a refugee application', especially in a case where there's no Jus Soli involved.

 

[admontreal]

So, according to you, it's not Monsef's fault becuase she didn't sign the forms as she was a minor? What about this case where a man who arrived to Canada at the age of 9 months was stripped because his father failed to disclose a criminal conviction? Where was Trudeau (and your) sympathy in this case?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/citizenship-revocation-trudeau-harper-1.3795733

Again, it seems like rules apply differently to JT's cronies than they do to the rest of us.

I agree that there's an obvious difference of treatment and that's wrong. But instead of extending the non-sense revocations to Maryam Monsef we should repare the mistakes that have been made towards anonymous people (a.k.a. Not Liberal Ministers) that had similar cases.

 

[torontosm]

I agree that there's an obvious difference of treatment and that's wrong. But instead of extending the non-sense revocations to Maryam Monsef we should repare the mistakes that have been made towards anonymous people (a.k.a. Not Liberal Ministers) that had similar cases.

I appreciate your sentiment of fairness, but the Liberals continue to strip 60 people of citizenship a month, many of whom presumably for doing the exact same thing that Monsef did. Justice should be equal and the law should apply in the same manner for all Canadians. After all, isn't this what Trudeau campaigned on?

 

[torontosm]

We have no proof that she lied. And honestly I don't see where the place of birth is 'the essence of a refugee application', especially in a case where there's no Jus Soli involved.

The proof is that she was born in a different country than she claimed! How much clearer can it get? Either she lied or her mother did...regardless, there is precedent under Canadian law that it doesn't matter who was responsible. She should be stripped of her citizenship and booted out like the Liberals have done to everyone else who did the exact same thing.

 

[marcher]

I appreciate your sentiment of fairness, but the Liberals continue to strip 60 people of citizenship a month, many of whom presumably for doing the exact same thing that Monsef did. Justice should be equal and the law should apply in the same manner for all Canadians. After all, isn't this what Trudeau campaigned on?

We all, including me, assume that the Liberals are stripping people off citizenships, but I was wondering if we are being unfair. It is occurring during Liberal rule, and they have not done anything to stop it. But is it actually Liberals who are carrying out the whole process, or is it IRCC implementing the laws that have been passed by the previous government?

 

[admontreal]

I appreciate your sentiment of fairness, but the Liberals continue to strip 60 people of citizenship a month, many of whom presumably for doing the exact same thing that Monsef did. Justice should be equal and the law should apply in the same manner for all Canadians. After all, isn't this what Trudeau campaigned on?

That's what I say, fairness should apply to the 60 people a month. Applying this madness to Monsef is fair only in apparence, not fondamentally. Applying a fair and retroactive process to everybody would be the best thing to do.

 

[admontreal]

We all, including me, assume that the Liberals are stripping people off citizenships, but I was wondering if we are being unfair. It is occurring during Liberal rule, and they have not done anything to stop it. But is it actually Liberals who are carrying out the whole process, or is it IRCC implementing the laws that have been passed by the previous government?

It's the latter. Stopping that would let read fraudsters off the hook (which is impossible), carrying it over would make you look unfair and inhuman. Now they are trying to establish a more Charter-compliant process as soon as possible.