Toronto vs Vancouver for Tech product managers

[SamuraiJack]

Hello,

Lets start with a shoutout to all the mods and contributors on this forum - for the past 9 months this forum has been extremely helpful, not just from the treasure trove of articles, Q&A, but also when I posted questions and needed urgent and accurate info.

I finally reached the last leg of my journey - got my PR (well I did the landing but will be waiting for the next ~month to get the card by mail).

My question is around choosing between Vancouver and Toronto. My employer has given me the option to choose. I've been going over the pros and cons and it seems close. and thus I look to all of you experienced folks on things I may not have considered. Here's the summary:

My Background
I will be moving first by myself and will soon be joined by my wife. Since we're moving from Los Angeles, the cost of living doesn't seem too different from LA for both places. I have heard from others about Vancouver's cost of living being high, but when I used online sources and calculators, its seems similar (CA$3800 for Vancouver vs CA$4077 for Toronto). So either my sources are incorrect or times have changed.

Thought process so far
At first I preferred Vancouver since its the least cold part of Canada (I'm originally from a warm tropical part of India) but Toronto seems to have every other advantage - it seems to have way more opportunities for my role and industry (Product Management, tech, startups) and will be closer to my team that is located in the US East Coast. My wife is in tech (data analytics) so when she moves, I feel her job hunt will be easier in Toronto

Questions

1. Are my assumptions above correct?
2. What other things did you consider before moving to either of these two places?
3. Are the state/federal taxes cheaper in any of the two places?
4. Are job opportunities for product managers in tech any better in one city over the other?

If it matters, my objectives are:

• Of course to maximize my earning and minimize cost of living while holding on to a comfortable lifestyle as a couple
• To save enough to maybe start downpayment for a house in Canada say 3-5 years from now
• To have my options open in case I want to leave my current employer
• To avoid cold weather as much as possible (but friends and family tell me this is not a big deal, that within a few months I'll get used to even snowy Toronto)

 

[Qwertypod]

I've lived in both, and the cost of living isn't too different between the two cities. I believe that you and your wife will have an easier time finding work in Toronto for tech/startups. Vancouver has a milder climate, but is wildly different in terms of lifestyle. Toronto has a more active nightlife and people in general go out more. It's generally easier to make friends in Toronto because not a lot of people in Vancouver venture outside when it's raining. Vancouver is a lot more laid back and is more family friendly, has a lot more green spaces and you have more options for nature adventures. All that being said, it rains a LOT in Vancouver. I spent a year here now and I thought I'd be able to get over the rain, but it gets depressing fast. It is way warmer than the east coast, but the rain really gets to you. I don't believe that income tax is much different between the two provinces. At the end of the day, it's all about your own lifestyle and what you prefer.

 

[navinball]

I moved from LA too after 8 yrs. Miss hollywood and the weather. When the whole GC mess gets cleared I'm planning on going back. Toronto area is great though. Lots of Jobs in IT. many companies setting up base here with the situation in states.

 

[SamuraiJack]

I've lived in both, and the cost of living isn't too different between the two cities. I believe that you and your wife will have an easier time finding work in Toronto for tech/startups. Vancouver has a milder climate, but is wildly different in terms of lifestyle. Toronto has a more active nightlife and people in general go out more. It's generally easier to make friends in Toronto because not a lot of people in Vancouver venture outside when it's raining. Vancouver is a lot more laid back and is more family friendly, has a lot more green spaces and you have more options for nature adventures. All that being said, it rains a LOT in Vancouver. I spent a year here now and I thought I'd be able to get over the rain, but it gets depressing fast. It is way warmer than the east coast, but the rain really gets to you. I don't believe that income tax is much different between the two provinces. At the end of the day, it's all about your own lifestyle and what you prefer.

Thanks for sharing. What specifically caught my attention was your comment on the rain. I think I would feel the same way about it. Since you've lived in both places, would you prefer the snow over the rain? Is it a lesser evil (pain) type of situation? Please share more about the rain. I've heard the stereo type that it rains very much like Seattle. But what does that mean- Are there months in the year (say summer) where it completely stops? And the months it does rain, is it a 24x7 thing?

 

[Bs65]

Plenty of weather statistics around, for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Vancouver

https://weatherspark.com/y/476/Average-Weather-in-Vancouver-Canada-Year-Round

https://www.weather-ca.com/en/canada/toronto-climate

 

[steaky]

Thanks for sharing. What specifically caught my attention was your comment on the rain. I think I would feel the same way about it. Since you've lived in both places, would you prefer the snow over the rain? Is it a lesser evil (pain) type of situation? Please share more about the rain. I've heard the stereo type that it rains very much like Seattle. But what does that mean- Are there months in the year (say summer) where it completely stops? And the months it does rain, is it a 24x7 thing?

During the wet winter months, it rains (wet snow in higher elevations) close to 24/7 but there are some breaks. Often people walk their dogs during the breaks. I personally prefer rain over snow. I also lived in both cities.

 

[mappleleaf444803]

Hello,

Lets start with a shoutout to all the mods and contributors on this forum - for the past 9 months this forum has been extremely helpful, not just from the treasure trove of articles, Q&A, but also when I posted questions and needed urgent and accurate info.

I finally reached the last leg of my journey - got my PR (well I did the landing but will be waiting for the next ~month to get the card by mail).

My question is around choosing between Vancouver and Toronto. My employer has given me the option to choose. I've been going over the pros and cons and it seems close. and thus I look to all of you experienced folks on things I may not have considered. Here's the summary:

My Background
I will be moving first by myself and will soon be joined by my wife. Since we're moving from Los Angeles, the cost of living doesn't seem too different from LA for both places. I have heard from others about Vancouver's cost of living being high, but when I used online sources and calculators, its seems similar (CA$3800 for Vancouver vs CA$4077 for Toronto). So either my sources are incorrect or times have changed.

Thought process so far
At first I preferred Vancouver since its the least cold part of Canada (I'm originally from a warm tropical part of India) but Toronto seems to have every other advantage - it seems to have way more opportunities for my role and industry (Product Management, tech, startups) and will be closer to my team that is located in the US East Coast. My wife is in tech (data analytics) so when she moves, I feel her job hunt will be easier in Toronto

Questions

1. Are my assumptions above correct?
2. What other things did you consider before moving to either of these two places?
3. Are the state/federal taxes cheaper in any of the two places?
4. Are job opportunities for product managers in tech any better in one city over the other?

If it matters, my objectives are:

• Of course to maximize my earning and minimize cost of living while holding on to a comfortable lifestyle as a couple
• To save enough to maybe start downpayment for a house in Canada say 3-5 years from now
• To have my options open in case I want to leave my current employer
• To avoid cold weather as much as possible (but friends and family tell me this is not a big deal, that within a few months I'll get used to even snowy Toronto)

@SamuraiJack - I am based out of Los Angles as well. I'm here since last 9 years now. Just received PR and looking to move to Canada. I am also in the same field as you. Looking for TPM roles. How are you going about the job search there?

 

[SamuraiJack]

@SamuraiJack - I am based out of Los Angles as well. I'm here since last 9 years now. Just received PR and looking to move to Canada. I am also in the same field as you. Looking for TPM roles. How are you going about the job search there?

Just worked up a plan to convince my current employer to let me continue working. I know that's not what you're looking for. But here's my experience if it helps:

I did a cursory search into the job hunt process and realized it would be quite an uphill task with all the things going against me - I was outside the country when I was applying for the PR, didn't have any Canadian experience and most of the listings I found online were for companies or jobs I didn't find appealing. I did apply but soon enough realized the only places I was getting calls from were ones that I had a high match with stuff I had worked on in my past. So went back to the drawing board.

I doubled down on finding internal opportunities within my current company and also decided to do an honest conversation with my boss about working from Canada. I pitched to them that I wouldn't mind flying down every 2 months to ensure I had face time with everyone, assured them my work quality would not be affected in any way. Current boss (and his bosses) all liked the idea. I want to say many people don't even consider this option before launching into their job hunts. Of course there's people who's companies don't even have a presence in Canada and have various challenges that don't allow this option, but so far from all the people I've met, everyone simply discounts this idea of working out a deal with their current employer without giving it fair thought. I do believe some part of this was just good luck for me, but I want to draw attention to the other parts that took effort to make this option work.

 

[Qwertypod]

Thanks for sharing. What specifically caught my attention was your comment on the rain. I think I would feel the same way about it. Since you've lived in both places, would you prefer the snow over the rain? Is it a lesser evil (pain) type of situation? Please share more about the rain. I've heard the stereo type that it rains very much like Seattle. But what does that mean- Are there months in the year (say summer) where it completely stops? And the months it does rain, is it a 24x7 thing?

Well, we currently just got out of a straight month of rain, which broke a record for Vancouver. The rain is definitely not constant and you could have days that are predicted to be rainy but only have an hour or two of actual rain. I still prefer the rain to the snow, but that's not to say that Vancouver never gets snow either. This winter we got a few inches of snow, and lo and behold, public transit struggled. Summertime is definitely not as rainy as winter, you will get a good amount of sunshine and warmth - just remember that this will still be milder than an east coast 35°C scorcher. We are currently also in the process of moving back to the east coast for work, but I've already told my husband that I'd like to come back to Vancouver, even if it rains here a lot more. Take from that what you will I'm just a little more annoyed with - 30°C than I am with rain. Rain also wins over having to deal with slush and salt on the east coast.

 

[mappleleaf444803]

Just worked up a plan to convince my current employer to let me continue working. I know that's not what you're looking for. But here's my experience if it helps:

I did a cursory search into the job hunt process and realized it would be quite an uphill task with all the things going against me - I was outside the country when I was applying for the PR, didn't have any Canadian experience and most of the listings I found online were for companies or jobs I didn't find appealing. I did apply but soon enough realized the only places I was getting calls from were ones that I had a high match with stuff I had worked on in my past. So went back to the drawing board.

I doubled down on finding internal opportunities within my current company and also decided to do an honest conversation with my boss about working from Canada. I pitched to them that I wouldn't mind flying down every 2 months to ensure I had face time with everyone, assured them my work quality would not be affected in any way. Current boss (and his bosses) all liked the idea. I want to say many people don't even consider this option before launching into their job hunts. Of course there's people who's companies don't even have a presence in Canada and have various challenges that don't allow this option, but so far from all the people I've met, everyone simply discounts this idea of working out a deal with their current employer without giving it fair thought. I do believe some part of this was just good luck for me, but I want to draw attention to the other parts that took effort to make this option work.

@SamuraiJack Thanks this information was very helpful. I have been trying that as well. My employer is in Canada. I have already started discussing on that front. However, I wanted to approach it from both the ends. You are exactly right about the interview calls we get. They are based on the exact resume match. I have already reached out to few recruiters but no luck yet. Let's see. Good Luck with your move.