To withdraw or not to withdraw

[bideshi]

Hi all,
I have a slightly complicated situation and was hoping to receive some suggestion from the people here.

I have been a resident for about 5+ years now. I have very close family in the US and have had US visa in the past so I regularly stay there and have also worked there for short periods during these past 5 years.

Past May (2015), I was under the impression that I satisfy the residency requirements, thus I applied. Not all of my US border crossings are stamped on my passport, so I looked up old emails, searched tickets and tried my best to get everything correct. But all in all, I was only about 3 days over the minimum number of days required. I was going away for the summer so I decided to apply right away and left. Come November, they invite me for a citizenship test (Montreal), I pass it. During the interview, the agent brought out a list of border entries, and turns out there were other border crossings I had done that I had forgotten to write in. She sends me home saying I'll get a letter.

In a week or so, I got a CIT 0520. I send them everything I have, but I didn't have the records of my US border entries. I sent a request to the US Customs/Border and was waiting for them, but they did not reply within time so I couldn't send that, but sent other stuff they wanted (tax, education, etc).

Now I finally heard back from the US Border and their record shows that some of the dates I wrote were wrong and I've been there longer than I initially thought, thus not satisfying the residency requirement for the period stated back in July. I also got a RQ around the same time, which asks for a bunch of stuff, some of which I don't have (mostly lease agreements - I have never had to sign a written lease, it's mostly always been a verbal agreement).

So, my question is, is it worth for me to send them whatever I have? Should I simply withdraw my application? Will they take into consideration the extra days, between the time of application and now, that I've spent inside Canada when considering my file? And IF I withdraw now and reapply again in a year or two, will they question me about the difference in dates I wrote earlier and I will write then (which will be the correct, verified dates)?

Thank everybody!

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

Hi all,
I have a slightly complicated situation and was hoping to receive some suggestion from the people here.

I have been a resident for about 5+ years now. I have very close family in the US and have had US visa in the past so I regularly stay there and have also worked there for short periods during these past 5 years.

Past May (2015), I was under the impression that I satisfy the residency requirements, thus I applied. Not all of my US border crossings are stamped on my passport, so I looked up old emails, searched tickets and tried my best to get everything correct. But all in all, I was only about 3 days over the minimum number of days required. I was going away for the summer so I decided to apply right away and left. Come November, they invite me for a citizenship test (Montreal), I pass it. During the interview, the agent brought out a list of border entries, and turns out there were other border crossings I had done that I had forgotten to write in. She sends me home saying I'll get a letter.

In a week or so, I got a CIT 0520. I send them everything I have, but I didn't have the records of my US border entries. I sent a request to the US Customs/Border and was waiting for them, but they did not reply within time so I couldn't send that, but sent other stuff they wanted (tax, education, etc).

Now I finally heard back from the US Border and their record shows that some of the dates I wrote were wrong and I've been there longer than I initially thought, thus not satisfying the residency requirement for the period stated back in July. I also got a RQ around the same time, which asks for a bunch of stuff, some of which I don't have (mostly lease agreements - I have never had to sign a written lease, it's mostly always been a verbal agreement).

So, my question is, is it worth for me to send them whatever I have? Should I simply withdraw my application? Will they take into consideration the extra days, between the time of application and now, that I've spent inside Canada when considering my file? And IF I withdraw now and reapply again in a year or two, will they question me about the difference in dates I wrote earlier and I will write then (which will be the correct, verified dates)?

Thank everybody!

Well, CIC is quite strict with minimum days required and excessive cross border travel. You might consider asking for additional time from CIC to collect all the details (thru registered mail) to keep record of your request.

Here are few things you can consider, in light of details obtained from US homeland security and preferably from CBSA too, re-calculate our actual physical days present in Canada.

If you comfortably meet the minimum the required physical days presence in Canada, re-submit the details with supporting. If not, the CIC would drag your case for 36+ months, assigns it to Citizenship Judge. Who in most cases are rejecting due to ineligibility.

Alternatively, if ONLY you are eligible under the new rules, got well over 1460 days you might withdraw and re-apply for quicker processing.

 

[chikloo]

Since you are short of 1095 days you will have a citizenship judge hearing. In the hearing if the shortage is negligible the judge may rule the decision in your favor. But this outcome is very unlikely. Also if the judge rules in favor CIC case officer can challenge it.

In your current application the timeline to see a judge will also be significantly high. After seeing a judge he can take upto 60 days to make a decision and then CIC can challenge it. So this can drag on with you having to stress more.

So if you can withdraw that is a good option. Having said that I do not know if you qualify for applying via new rule. Also if you are ok to forgo the current processing fee and reapply fee of 630. So it is a tough call.
All the best

 

[links18]

It sounds like you would not qualify if you reapplied under the new rules? How many days were you short? Do you know for sure? Would you qualify under the new rules at any time in the future?

In any event, what do you have to lose by trying to see your case through? It is possible, if not likely, a citizenship officer or citizenship judge could overlook your shortfall and grant you citizenship anyway, if you can make an affirmative case under one of the other tests under the old law. At one point--and I do not know if it is still there--CIC actually instructed applicants who made "frequent trips" to the USA, but who did not know the precise dates of their trips, to estimate them. You might want to see if you can find that and cite it in a cover letter. There might be a question of procedural fairness in telling you to estimate and then holding you to the border records you didn't have at the time you filled out your application. I would say your chances of being approved aren't great, but if you want to try anyway, you might consider consulting with legal counsel, in which case you do stand to lose some money.

 

[nope]

Well, CIC is quite strict with minimum days required and excessive cross border travel. You might consider asking for additional time from CIC to collect all the details (thru registered mail) to keep record of your request.

Here are few things you can consider, in light of details obtained from US homeland security and preferably from CBSA too, re-calculate our actual physical days present in Canada.

If you comfortably meet the minimum the required physical days presence in Canada, re-submit the details with supporting. If not, the CIC would drag your case for 36+ months, assigns it to Citizenship Judge. Who in most cases are rejecting due to ineligibility.

Alternatively, if ONLY you are eligible under the new rules, got well over 1460 days you might withdraw and re-apply for quicker processing.

Are you in such a hurry to give bad advice that you don't even read the letters? The OP states clearly that they don't meet the required number of days.

 

[dnyfyn]

Better to withdraw

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

Are you in such a hurry to give bad advice that you don't even read the letters? The OP states clearly that they don't meet the required number of days.

What's WRONG with you ??? I put the options for the candidate to decide ONLY in case if he does not meet the required number of days, he has less chances.

What does it mean if you dont meet the required number of days. Do you still think, the CIC will approve such cases, almost in all such cases CIC rejected applications stating its dd not meet requirement Or are you recommending something to CIC on candidate's behalf ?

Based on my years of experience, all my suggestions are always in favor of candidates. Whereas you somehow opposes anything which is pro-candidate advise without any rhyme or reason. Do you understand the issue and its ramifications or just want to stick for nothing.

If I made incorrect advise, then what do you propose.....wait for 4 years, go to the CJ and get rejected, waste the time ????

 

[dpenabill]

Hi all,
I have a slightly complicated situation and was hoping to receive some suggestion from the people here.

While it is slightly complicated, your situation is actually a fairly common one.

Generally I concur with many of the previous responses (except Canadiandesi2006 who so consistently provides outright erroneous and irrelevant information, best to just totally ignore posts by that participant).

Additional observations:

So, my question is, is it worth for me to send them whatever I have? Should I simply withdraw my application? Will they take into consideration the extra days, between the time of application and now, that I've spent inside Canada when considering my file? And IF I withdraw now and reapply again in a year or two, will they question me about the difference in dates I wrote earlier and I will write then (which will be the correct, verified dates)?

What to do at this stage is a very personal decision, the better course being dependent on a wide range of interrelated factors.

Probably the two biggest factors are:

-- how much short of the 1095 days actual physical presence threshold are you based on best calculation

-- how many and how big the errors were in your original travel declaration; that is, to what extent did your original declaration of travel fail to report time outside Canada

While these two factors loom very large, there are many other factors which are also significant, not the least of which is the extent to which, in your response to the RQ, you objectively document where you were living in Canada, what work or other activities you were doing in Canada, additional ties to a life in Canada, and in general a paper trail evidencing a life being lived in Canada.

That is way, way too much information to attempt enumerating and assessing in a open forum like this.

My sense is that the real question you need to answer is whether or not it will be worth the effort and expense to obtain the assistance of a lawyer.

As others have noted, you can do what you can to respond and ride the process through, doing what you can to acknowledge errors made and to correct the record, and to build a case that a CJ should conclude you were resident-in-Canada even though for some of the time you were traveling abroad, that is, an effort to convince the decision-maker (this seems like a case very likely to end up before a Citizenship Judge, unless the shortfall was small and the errors were very few and none for any long trip) a qualitative residency standard, such as the Koo criteria, should be used to assess whether you met the requirement to be resident in Canada for three years.

Note: a person who resides in Brampton, Ontario, for example, does not cease to be a resident of Brampton, or a resident of Ontario, just because he goes to Vancouver for two weeks . . . or to Cuba for two weeks. In particular, under the old law CJs can apply a residency test which is indeed based on maintaining residency in Canada, not just based on days physically present. But we have little or no idea to what extent CJs are willing to do this these days -- some, for sure, that is we know some are, but there are also many indications this is the exception. We just do not really know to what extent such exceptions are being made.

So, anyway, there is no disability for riding the process through, although it is important to acknowledge all errors made and do your best to make the record complete and accurate to the very, very best of your knowledge. (Should have made a more diligent effort to do so when you applied, but that is water long gone under the bridge.)

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

d

While it is slightly complicated, your situation is actually a fairly common one.

Generally I concur with many of the previous responses (except Canadiandesi2006 who so consistently provides outright erroneous and irrelevant information, best to just totally ignore posts by that participant).

Additional observations:


What to do at this stage is a very personal decision, the better course being dependent on a wide range of interrelated factors.

Probably the two biggest factors are:

-- how much short of the 1095 days actual physical presence threshold are you based on best calculation

-- how many and how big the errors were in your original travel declaration; that is, to what extent did your original declaration of travel fail to report time outside Canada

While these two factors loom very large, there are many other factors which are also significant, not the least of which is the extent to which, in your response to the RQ, you objectively document where you were living in Canada, what work or other activities you were doing in Canada, additional ties to a life in Canada, and in general a paper trail evidencing a life being lived in Canada.

That is way, way too much information to attempt enumerating and assessing in a open forum like this.

My sense is that the real question you need to answer is whether or not it will be worth the effort and expense to obtain the assistance of a lawyer.

As others have noted, you can do what you can to respond and ride the process through, doing what you can to acknowledge errors made and to correct the record, and to build a case that a CJ should conclude you were resident-in-Canada even though for some of the time you were traveling abroad, that is, an effort to convince the decision-maker (this seems like a case very likely to end up before a Citizenship Judge, unless the shortfall was small and the errors were very few and none for any long trip) a qualitative residency standard, such as the Koo criteria, should be used to assess whether you met the requirement to be resident in Canada for three years.

Note: a person who resides in Brampton, Ontario, for example, does not cease to be a resident of Brampton, or a resident of Ontario, just because he goes to Vancouver for two weeks . . . or to Cuba for two weeks. In particular, under the old law CJs can apply a residency test which is indeed based on maintaining residency in Canada, not just based on days physically present. But we have little or no idea to what extent CJs are willing to do this these days -- some, for sure, that is we know some are, but there are also many indications this is the exception. We just do not really know to what extent such exceptions are being made.

So, anyway, there is no disability for riding the process through, although it is important to acknowledge all errors made and do your best to make the record complete and accurate to the very, very best of your knowledge. (Should have made a more diligent effort to do so when you applied, but that is water long gone under the bridge.)

I completely agree with you, going by record of past cases in similar situation it does not look too promising. However its individuals decision which option to choose in light of shared experiences on this forum.

 

[bideshi]

Hi all,

Thanks a lot of all the suggestions. The majority seems to be in favor of a withdrawal, which is what I'm leaning towards. Some suggest letting the case running its course, but if it runs upwards of 2 years, I'm sure I'll be absolutely eligible by that point (with verifiable dates this time around), and would rather have a clean application than have to plead with the judge. However, if I do end up appearing in front of a CJ, will they take into consideration the amount of time I've spent in Canada after the application (time between the application and the hearing)?

For a little more background, I'm short by about 50 days. Also, I'm a young un-married (would it look/be better if I was engaged?) male, recently graduated from a Canadian University, with the rest of my family living in the US, which probably does not show a lot of life ties to Canada. However, it is my wish to live long in Canada, so I would like to see this through.

Again, thanks everyone for the very supportive replies. Truly appreciated the warm tones.

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

Hi all,

Thanks a lot of all the suggestions. The majority seems to be in favor of a withdrawal, which is what I'm leaning towards. Some suggest letting the case running its course, but if it runs upwards of 2 years, I'm sure I'll be absolutely eligible by that point (with verifiable dates this time around), and would rather have a clean application than have to plead with the judge. However, if I do end up appearing in front of a CJ, will they take into consideration the amount of time I've spent in Canada after the application (time between the application and the hearing)?

For a little more background, I'm short by about 50 days. Also, I'm a young un-married (would it look/be better if I was engaged?) male, recently graduated from a Canadian University, with the rest of my family living in the US, which probably does not show a lot of life ties to Canada. However, it is my wish to live long in Canada, so I would like to see this through.

Again, thanks everyone for the very supportive replies. Truly appreciated the warm tones.

Sadly, I had been in exactly similar situation as yours. My attorney made terrible calculation error, submitted my application with 59 days short. Down on the road after 2 years, I learnt this and attorney told, dont worry its not a big deal. After that I never went out of country for next 3 years.

I was confident, even encouraged by forum readers and assured by my attorney that when I present my case to judge, he would consider this and plus strong ties to the country, as my family and kids already granted the Citizenship.

However, after torturous 4 years of wait, when I met the judge. He told, you are ineligible, pointless even to go through tons of paper work about my strong ties to country. Further he told, even if he approve, CIC would object and it will just prolong further.

He suggested, better withdraw and re-apply. I was shocked, why this secret was NOT revealed by CIC 3 years back. What's the point in unnecessarily wasting everyone time, Federal resources and have the Citizenship Judge share this secret with me after 4 years.

Citizenship judge sounded more helpless than candidates, looks like they are very hesitant to go against CIC's decision, lest they are perceived as against the CIC. As their jobs are not independent, they are political appointees at the mercy of CIC's leadership.

Ultimately it your call, you know better your situation and decide what's best for you.

 

[links18]

Yes, CJ--or even a citizenship officer--could take time since application into consideration or time before it since landing if they want to. Will they? Who knows? You would have to make a case why they should. Would CIC agree with the CJ if a CJ decides to give you the benefit of the doubt? Again, nobody can say. IMHO, it sounds like you made a good faith effort to report your absences as accurately as you could based on the information available to you at the time you made the application. Nobody told you it was a requirement to get your US border records before applying. But I am not an adjudicatory officer and others may have a different opinion or expectation of what it is reasonable to expect a citizenship applicant to do.

 

[Fortheloveofcanada]

@canadiandesi2006
I know i am in the middle of a totaly different subject but i really need ur opinion..
I applied for citizenship last june- had my test n interview 18th of november (ottawa office) they sent me a request for fingerprints on january 20th i made my fingerprints on feb 1st (to b sent dierctly to cic).. N i am still in procesd.. When can i expect my oath???
I also want to travel by the end of march for our family reunion and my pr recently expired.. I feel confused
.. Shall i renew my pr or am i close if u could pls pls help

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

@canadiandesi2006
I know i am in the middle of a totaly different subject but i really need ur opinion..
I applied for citizenship last june- had my test n interview 18th of november (ottawa office) they sent me a request for fingerprints on january 20th i made my fingerprints on feb 1st (to b sent dierctly to cic).. N i am still in procesd.. When can i expect my oath???
I also want to travel by the end of march for our family reunion and my pr recently expired.. I feel confused
.. Shall i renew my pr or am i close if u could pls pls help

From the past comments, it looks like its take 3-4 weeks to process the FP. However, its too close for your travel date, even if you get Oath invitation is could be around that time. If you decide to travel before getting Oath, officially inform CIC your travel dates and return date to avoid missing the Oath Ceremony. (Preferably send a letter by courier).

CIC has on its site, the average PR renewal is 170 days. One of my friend was in same situation. Shockingly CIC suggested him to apply for visa in his country to return to Canada but they does not have a system to issue a temporary PR.

Consider sending a registered letter with PR copy to CIC stating that since renewal of PR taking so long, what they can suggest. Attach a copy of their reply and apply for visa from your country. *** I found its weird but then, its CIC.

 

[Fortheloveofcanada]

Thanks a lot for ur help i really appreciate it..