The Canadian Government needs to make immigrants feel more wanted...

[dalton]

I'm not sure if this is the right place however I wanted share some of my thoughts and experiences from day one to becoming a Canadian citizen. My journey is not exactly like most, I originally came to Canada on a working holiday visa for one year, I got work in an area I really enjoyed and decided I would like to stay on, for a while at least... I applied through the PNP program and was approved and after a couple of years became a PR. I was lucky to to make the day count before the law change and am now a Canadian citizen. All in all the process took approx. 5 and a half years since first applying for PR.

This has been a much smoother process than what I read from lots on hear, I never had the long wait before landing hear and I have been legally able to work for the majority of my time here but there have been challenges.

Some important basic questions are:

Does Canada need immigration?
Does Canada want immigration?

From my understanding on the Canadian immigration policy and the economy the answer to both is Yes.

I accept the market is skewed as more people want to move here than Canada needs to or wants to accept. This tips the balance in favour of the Canadian government (which is good for the country). This is similar to a the jobs market when unemployment is high, however the best companies still need to offer good packages to attract the best. Similarly Canada still needs to compete with other countries for the best people. By best people I mean what makes the best sense for Canada, I'm thinking young and educated. I fit that description pretty well, I moved here just after graduation, so am highly educated (not at Canada's expense) and will pay into CPP for a long time and I'm also a low health risk.

While my process was smooth relative to others there were still many times of uncertainty, long waits to get PR, a further long wait to get a PR card issued, lots of paperwork and photo submissions. Still now I am waiting on my passport to be issued.

During this time there have been many times incl. right now when I was advised not to travel, I currently have my birth country passport but no proof of Canadian citizenship so am being advised not to travel outside the country, similar happened when I went from a working visa to a PR and I had to wait for my card. To be perfectly honest I don't yet feel Canadian, I expect that will change once I receive my passport and again know I am free to travel. It would have been nice if it could have been coordinated with the citizenship ceremony or you received a temporary card.

While there is not much options but to wait for the person involved it can cause them major life disruption, missing major events or family losses and putting trip on hold or loosing money. While it is unlikely Canada will loose that person it does not reflect well for attracting others. When I spoke with CIC representatives I got the idea that this was a small price to pay and this was almost a test to prove myself to Canada.

The new laws recently introduced are a continuation of this attitude that people need to do more and perhaps suffer more to prove themselves to Canada. A friend of mine who missed the cut off date will have been here almost 8 years under the new rules before he can apply for his citizenship. I don't argue that there shouldn't be a set time that people need to have lived here before becoming a citizen, however 8 years seems a long time. After spending all of his working life here he has very much become part of Canadian society yet is not able to vote even on local municipal issues. Is it really going to produce better more involved citizens by making them wait longer before then can get involved in Canadian democracy?

I don't want this to seem like I am not grateful of the opportunities Canada has given me, I just wished there was a little more of a balanced relationship between CIC and me. I've had an easy run but still there have been many sleepless night of stressing over paperwork and lots of time spent waiting, waiting, waiting.

 

[Anti- racism]

Well said. I only can add that there is an "incompetence" element. Most of reasons can NOT justify the subjectivity and discrepancies of the process.

 

[keesio]

To be perfectly honest I don't yet feel Canadian, I expect that will change once I receive my passport and again know I am free to travel.

It takes time. To be honest I didn't feel Canadian until about 7-8 years after I moved here. It is also around that time I applied for PR because then is when I decided I felt Canadian and wanted to permanently settle here. For any person who moves to another country as an adult, it will take some time. Some never even fully adapt.

Is it really going to produce better more involved citizens by making them wait longer before then can get involved in Canadian democracy?

As I mentioned before, I didn't feel Canadian until many years after I moved here. The first few years I had marginal interest or knowledge of Canadian politics so it was probably good I didn't (couldn't) vote. I'd say it was 10 years in when I really had full interest. Now I am fully aware and was thrilled when I was first able to vote for the first time last year after 14+ years in Canada. Certainly the long wait flamed my desire and my very long time in Canada made me very familiar with all the parties, policies, histories and how everything worked. It takes time to acclimate. For example, I sponsored my wife to Canada and she landed in 2013. It boggles my mind that if she doesn't make too many future trips outside Canada, she can qualify for citizenship in another 2+ years. Even more boggling is that under the old rules, she could have potentially applied in another year or so. I say it boggles my mind because her mindset is completely that she is still in a "foreign" country and does not identify with being Canadian at all. Nor is she really aware (or overly interested) of the various parties, political leaders, history, etc. So to think that she is half-way there to becoming a candidate to be a citizen is pretty wild. This attitude obviously varies depending on the individual.

I'm not saying people need to wait many years to qualify to be a citizen... especially since I'm one of those believers in "no taxation without representation" (yes I grew up in the US). But just giving my experience on how it takes time to really get adapted to a new country.

 

[paw339]

One of the reasons I believe immigrants often don't feel wanted is because there are too many of us for the economy to absorb comfortably. If immigration levels were reduced by say 50% of current levels so there was no longer a surplus of new immigrants, but a slight shortage, then I bet we would feel more wanted.

 

[Bigudi]

Does Canada want immigration?

 

[keesio]

One of the reasons I believe immigrants often don't feel wanted is because there are too many of us for the economy to absorb comfortably. If immigration levels were reduced by say 50% of current levels so there was no longer a surplus of new immigrants, but a slight shortage, then I bet we would feel more wanted.

Yeah this is the key factor. If the economy is poor, immigrants are an easy scapegoat. Everywhere in the world. Greece is a good example. There is a blatant ultra-nationalist openly racist group called the Golden Dawn. They have a decent amount of support. In my experience, Greeks are generally very warm people but with their economy in shambles and unemployment sky-high, it was easy to accuse immigrants of "stealing" jobs and resources from the struggling Greek. No way that a xenophobic group like Golden Dawn would have any support outside of a few extremists if the Greek economy was doing well. But it is not and they have support even from your average Greek

 

[torontosm]

The new laws recently introduced are a continuation of this attitude that people need to do more and perhaps suffer more to prove themselves to Canada.

If having to live in Canada for an extra year to qualify for citizenship is viewed as "suffering", perhaps those immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place. I understand your friend's situation is a bit different but regardless, Canada changes its laws on a regular basis to protect its citizens and the introduction of the new citizenship laws had broad-based support across all parties. It was obviously something that was recognized as being in Canada's best interests by the legislators and the general public. Further, there was a one-year "transition" period, so it wasn't like the rules were changed overnight and people were left out to dry.

 

[paw339]

Bigudi

If I understand what you are trying to say with your photos correctly I think you miss understand the conservatives. They are extremely pro immigration (just look at the numbers) their aim is to drive down wages for the 90% by ensuring an excess supply of labour thereby boosting the corporations; their friends. Their rhetoric about jobs for Canadians first and controlled immigration is just that rhetoric, aimed as pacifying new and old Canadians whose living standards aren't rising or are even falling under the pressure of excess labour supply. If either the NDP or the Liberals announced major cuts to immigration levels they would sweep away the conservatives. The group that would benefit the most from a reduction in immigration levels would be new immigrants and new Canadians followed by what's left of the middle class.

 

[Bigudi]

Bigudi

If I understand what you are trying to say with your photos correctly I think you miss understand the conservatives. They are extremely pro immigration (just look at the numbers) their aim is to drive down wages for the 90% by ensuring an excess supply of labour thereby boosting the corporations; their friends. Their rhetoric about jobs for Canadians first and controlled immigration is just that rhetoric, aimed as pacifying new and old Canadians whose living standards aren't rising or are even falling under the pressure of excess labour supply. If either the NDP or the Liberals announced major cuts to immigration levels they would sweep away the conservatives. The group that would benefit the most from a reduction in immigration levels would be new immigrants and new Canadians followed by what's left of the middle class.

Yes, you understood well my "message" and I stand corrected. Actually what you just said makes perfect sense. At least from the economic point of view. I just think conservatives in general must breed an internal prejudice against immigrants and multiculturalism. But money, as you said yourself, always talks louder. You are right.

 

[TomTony]

Just one thing you should know, the new rule applies to all citizens, they don't care if you are already a citizen or applying for citizenship tomorrow, the only difference is in the new applicants have to wait 4 years, other sections of the law applies to all citizens

 

[on-hold]

I agree with almost everything in this original post -- for myself, I did my B.A. at the University of Toronto in my early 20s as an international student, and when I immigrated to Canada 20 years later (after many years of living outside the United States) it felt like coming home. I found the most awkward part of being here the sensation that I had disguised myself as a Canadian, since I don't have a strong American accent. I don't think that the 4-year requirement is an imposition, but I do disagree with the loss of time prior to becoming a PR. I think that students and temporary workers have to engage with Canadian society by the nature of their status here, and that should be recognized -- it's easy to imagine scenarios in which a PR actually has much less contact with Canada. But that's not your main point, and there's no need to argue about it in this thread.

The one area where I totally disagree is with the idea that young, educated people are prime immigrants. I don't think there is very much evidence for this at all. The higher you go up the education/expertise ladder, the more specific each country's requirements are, and the less able outsiders are to fit in. Canada is aware of this but the problems are not easily solved, and not every one of them should be, either. But by giving formal precedence to people who speak English and have an education, Canada privileges people who are emigrating for middle-class reasons; but when they arrive here, are likely to struggle to maintain middle-class status. When you sacrifice status in your home country and fail to find it in your new country, it makes one extremely dis-satisfied. Anecdotes aren't data . . . but I base this partly on my first year in Canada, which was not easy; and as an American, with a Canadian B.A., I had far fewer informal obstacles than most immigrants.

In the past, emigrants were farmers, laborers, and peasants -- they came from a hard life, and were prepared to struggle here. I think that by not having a route for this profile to emigrate -- young, skilled but not educated, little English -- Canada misses out on people who would be valuable Canadians; willing workers, who will deeply value the opportunity given to them.

Middle-class, highly-educated immigration is risky, because there is a bit of an implicit bargain -- 'come be middle-class here'. I'm not saying that such people are promised a good life; but it would be silly of Canada to choose people like that to come and drive taxis, or run kiosks. I think that there are a lot of jobs in Canada for workers, that a person like myself isn't interested in -- and that today, it might be as easy for a skilled laborer to succeed as an over-educated American.

I'm just saying that I fit the profile you described (maybe not as young). I'm not convinced that I'm more valuable to Canada than the skilled workers I knew in Thailand, who would have been very, very grateful to a country like Canada that let them in to work and establish themselves. I think that Canada's immigration model disregards the value of an immigrant's mindset when stepping off the plane.

 

[keesio]

In the past, emigrants were farmers, laborers, and peasants -- they came from a hard life, and were prepared to struggle here.

Note that those times was when there was indeed a real labour shortage and the government was looking for people to build industry and to settle the lands. In many cases, land was given away for free to help settle it. Nowadays, other than a few areas (like Alberta during the oil boom), there is not really a labour shortage. New immigrants with only those skills are viewed as potentially stealing a poor local Canadian's job and helping drive labour wages low. Look at all the hoopla over the TFW program where blue collar Canadians felt jobs were going to foreigners will to work more for less. It's why it's hard to get an LMO for those kinds of jobs.

 

[on-hold]

Note that those times was when there was indeed a real labour shortage and the government was looking for people to build industry and to settle the lands. In many cases, land was given away for free to help settle it. Nowadays, other than a few areas (like Alberta during the oil boom), there is not really a labour shortage. New immigrants with only those skills are viewed as potentially stealing a poor local Canadian's job and helping drive labour wages low. Look at all the hoopla over the TFW program where blue collar Canadians felt jobs were going to foreigners will to work more for less. It's why it's hard to get an LMO for those kinds of jobs.

Nothing you say here is wrong -- but at the same time, the problems Canada had with the TFW program were entirely predictable. Every single country that imports a caste of workers who have no rights to become permanent, and can be paid less than regular workers, develops those problems. It's a mystery why anyone thought it would be a good idea, seeing as Canada is largely immune (because of geography) to developing them naturally. I don't think that the TFW is an argument against limited, rational, unskilled immigration. For whatever reason, intra-provincial migration doesn't see to fill that need -- my personal feeling is that in Canada the 'path dependence' people get on based on their provincial home is stronger than in the United States.

As a small aside, it always bugs me that all the outrage is about the TFW program (which benefits poor laborers) and no one gives a damn about the Canadian Experience (or whatever it's called) program that lets footloose kids come work at Whistler.

There should be a way to update permanent immigration for unskilled labour in a service economy. Maybe have a version of Provincial Nominees, except let it be small, remote municipalities doing the nominating. Plus you might find that there actually is land in Canada that can still be settled . . .

 

[dalton]

Thanks for the discussion. In my OP I should have put the word suffer in inverted commas as it really can't be considered suffering.

Its interesting that everyone has a different experience. Within a year of living here I felt I had a good understanding of the political field although I didnt have the background knowedge. I think it comes down to just how interested you are in politics etc. During the last federal election I worked with a number of Canadians in their early 30s who had never voted and had no idea. I was trying to persuade the to vote and explaining the differences between federal and provincial government.

The debate over what type of emigrat is best for Canada is interesting. I suspect the correct answer is actually a mix. However I think their are lots of young, well eduacted people who are not yet middle class in their own country or else the quality of life of middle class is much lower. The US isn't a good example of this. This is a group that do have options on where they may want to go and IF Canada wants to attract them it needs to make sure it is competitive.

 

[keesio]

For whatever reason, intra-provincial migration doesn't see to fill that need -- my personal feeling is that in Canada the 'path dependence' people get on based on their provincial home is stronger than in the United States.

This is true. Americans tend to be more willing to move to other states than Canadians to other provinces

There should be a way to update permanent immigration for unskilled labour in a service economy. Maybe have a version of Provincial Nominees, except let it be small, remote municipalities doing the nominating. Plus you might find that there actually is land in Canada that can still be settled . . .

This will not work well unless you make a 2nd class of PRs with a condition that restricts their mobility rights and forces them to live in the province/municipality that sponsors them for a certain length of time. An example is just look at all the posts on this forum (PNP and PR forums) where there many questions from people who get PR via (M)PNP and then ask how long they need to stay in the province before they can leave to where they really want to go (usually Ontario). As you can see, the PNP program is exploited big time (by both applicants and sometimes the province too).