that was harsh, I need your support

[fdk511]

@Hussain Junejo, the stage of life where you are at, you shouldn't be brought down by discussion board topics. Your focus should be on your studies - provided you choose a field which has a scope of employment (like accounting), you will be able to land a job in Canada, if not Pakistan.

Out of the several recent graduates I know who completed either their undergrad or graduate degrees from Canada, only 3 have had to go back to Pakistan because they were either unable to find a job here in a reasonable amount of time, or got laid-off. The remaining 8 got jobs 2-3 months within graduation in their respective fields.

If you are in first year A'levels/AS levels, then you are looking at a minimum of 5-6 years of additional studies before you get your first degree. By that time, if you are in Canada, you would (or should) have developed some understanding of how the job market works here and might be able to become a contributing member of society. It might even be that the economy won't be in the state where it is today and you will not be facing the hurdles which many folks are facing today.

The FSW story, for many, has not been as clear cut as they would have liked. There are genuine issues in the program which set up a wide disconnect between the federal government and the private sector, and which has led to several people making it to the country only to find themselves un-or-underemployed. Their feedback must not be discarded - but if your family is able to afford education abroad for you, then you should avail the opportunity. Alternatively, you can do what several others have done in the past: get your undergrad in Pakistan, and then enroll in a MS program abroad - this way you cut down on costs, and also get a chance to study abroad.

 

[david1697]

The FSW story, for many, has not been as clear cut as they would have liked. There are genuine issues in the program which set up a wide disconnect between the federal government and the private sector, and which has led to several people making it to the country only to find themselves un-or-underemployed. Their feedback must not be discarded

Economy is in deep recession. Canada today, economy wise, is not much different from many third world countries, could even be worse in terms of job hunting (at least in India an Indian already has a "network" and knows whom to bribe to buy himself a job, in Canada he will have to hit many walls before he even figures what's going on).

Still, a beautiful country to visit or live (provided, you can pay your bills).

 

[rahul20978]

@ david1697: How many Indians do you know who needed to "bribe to buy [themselves] a job"? I understand that you are frustrated with your job search and the current economy and all the things that go with it.

You might have spent all your adult life in the US but that does not give you the right to look down upon any country unless you have specific examples for your claim.

I also understand that on the 'bribery index', India falls in the top 25 percentile, but this statement here was uncalled for. Moreover, the OP is from Pakistan and not from India, and last I checked, they are still 2 different countries.

PS: Networking is not bribing. It's knowing the right people at the right places so that you can send in your resume without having a 'system' search for keywords and disqualify you.

Yup, I take exception to that statement as well. We have several global and multinational corporates in India now, and employment is largely based on credentials and ability. In fact, going by the way David has been harping on about the employment scenario in Canada, I think it's probably more straightforward a process to get a job in India.

 

[david1697]

@ david1697: How many Indians do you know who needed to "bribe to buy [themselves] a job"? I understand that you are frustrated with your job search and the current economy and all the things that go with it.

You might have spent all your adult life in the US but that does not give you the right to look down upon any country unless you have specific examples for your claim.

I also understand that on the 'bribery index', India falls in the top 25 percentile, but this statement here was uncalled for. Moreover, the OP is from Pakistan and not from India, and last I checked, they are still 2 different countries.

PS: Networking is not bribing. It's knowing the right people at the right places so that you can send in your resume without having a 'system' search for keywords and disqualify you.

FSW_Applicant, I don't believe to call things what they are is reprehensible thing to do.
It has nothing to do with looking up or down, I say what I think of any country, including US and Canada (notice that I constantly discharge criticism regarding economic conditions in both). Some people take it personal and get offended because of emotional attachment or investment, but not seeing things as they are is a high cost to pay, just so our sentiments can be pleased. I believe it's better to be honest. Once you see problem there are more chances somehting will be done to cure it, or people will be aware and avoid it or do what they can to overcome it.

As to India, I know it's not Pakistan (though used to be one protectorate , first divided in two and then ,after second India-Pakistan war, divided into third part, called Bangladesh).

And I do know how the societies in Third World countries function. Bribing officials for everything, including to get away from crime or to buy a job is not an unheard of occurrence in those places. You can ask local people or you can Google for more details.
Why do you think labor is dirt cheap in those countries and so many firms go there, knowing they can violate all the rules and regulations but still be immune from repercussions, as long as they have good contacts in the right places?

And while I have nothing against hiring managers at private firms in Canada having a freedom to hire whomever they want , including those they know through their direct contacts, I see something sinister and outrageously corrupt if "networking" is the ONLY way to get around "system" and be considered for any job.
Again, this to me appears to me the corruption of minds in a society, very similar to what brought down Third World countries for ages.

 

[david1697]

I didn't have an intention to shift this debate under the thread towards any of our country of origin, because by all means our common concern as Canadian Permanent Residents (or aspiring immigrants) is the current economic condition and impasse in the Canadian job market, not elsewhere.

But since poster above asked me to show at least one case of how one could buy a job through bribery in India, I've spent few seconds Googling and found just one such testament (among many others):

"........In any central govt recruitment 10-15-% of seats filled through bribe.but for that you need direct approach, it is not like that you walk in and offer the money and you get the job( i am not showing you how to get job through bribe).

While i was asked some lakhs of money when i appeares for gujarat state petronet corporation campus placement. I was sure of my capability and i refuse. The batchmate who offered the money get the job and i didn't? Luckey me.!!!

Should i be anonymous? Better i would, or i will be charged with defamation case like kejriwal."


You can see full text under this link here: http://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-to-get-a-good-government-job-in-India-bribing-to-clear-the-interview-is-inevitable


Again, my goal here was not to "bring down" India, Pakistan or any country out there.

My point was exactly what I stated "at least in [fill in with any Third World country where such conditions exist] a [Native of that country] already has a "network" and knows whom to [do something corrupt] to get himself a job, in Canada he will have to hit many walls before he even figures what's going on".

 

[david1697]

Yup, I take exception to that statement as well. We have several global and multinational corporates in India now, and employment is largely based on credentials and ability. In fact, going by the way David has been harping on about the employment scenario in Canada, I think it's probably more straightforward a process to get a job in India.

Indeed, it seems like in India you can bribe and get a job, but you can also get a job without bribing, just by meeting the specs,
In Canada you will not get a job without "network" (it's not exactly bribing, but just another way of doing things the corrupt way, when abused and overused). Where then an Indian (or any immigrant in similar circumstances) has a better chances of landing a job?

It just goes to confirm my point that with current job market, Indian is better off looking for a job in India than in Canada.

Why people always see personal insult, instead of thinking how bad things must have gotten that one is better off looking for a job as a native in a Third World country than as immigrant in one of the Worlds' most developed country....

 

[david1697]

Appreciate you spending time and researching to provide one instance to generalise your point. However, my original question was "How many Indians do you know who needed to "bribe to buy [themselves] a job"?" ;D

FSW_Applicant, do you think I would post the name of and reveal identity of a person (or persons) who told me about corruption in Indian job market?
If so, you have very poor opinion of me, which I don't blame you for since you don't know me in person.

Regarding the link I posted, as I mentioned, I have spent few seconds to search for it (and if you read , the quoted opinion is not the only one under the thread which claims you can bribe your way into a gov job in India. Indeed, the title of the thread is a telling sign, because it asks if you can at all get the gov job in India without bribing someone, with people replying "yes, you can get a job without a bribe",and then explaining how to get a gov job without bribing, not with "Oh you liar and slanderer, there is no such a thing as bribe for jobs in India" ;D)
I am sure if I spend half an hour (just googling) I can find a many more links like that ;D

On a serious note, the fact is people don't leave the Third World countries out of great satisfaction with their life over there (be it in India, Pakistan or any other so called "Developing" world country). And there is nothing wrong with stating things as they are, no one should take offense at it. And if you are Indian (for instance) and truly take it as an insult that in India people can buy a gov job, you should take it at those people in India who create and accept those conditions, not those who criticize it (by criticizing one does opposite of endorsing it. Would you rather have people endorse it?).

But even more importantly, I do not want to shift this debate astray from what its' main focus is: which is our (the immigrants) common concern with the economy and current job market in Canada, not elsewhere.


With best regards and wishes

 

[jazibkg]

I have no idea why people take it so personally and come on the defensive when their country is criticized. Had you said the same thing about Pakistan david, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you. We have multinational corporations in these countries which hire based on credentials, but there are still lots of governmental and semi-governmental organizations, where for fact nepotism prevails, both in India and Pakistan (and for the record, in places like the United States too).

Also, don't even get me started on the 'gift' culture in some companies in Canada. I know at least 1 very big company where this culture thrives. Gifts aren't taxable in Canada and do not have to be reported to the Canadian Revenue Agency. Go figure

 

[jazibkg]

But what if we are educated from canada? We don't have to be a Driver, Burger flipper right?

At your young age, there is nothing wrong with burger flipping and trying yourself a few odd jobs whilst studying in Canada. It gives you experience, exposure, humbles your personality and makes you realise the harsher realities of life.

 

[realtexdex]

How did this change into a bash India thread?

 

[david1697]

Yes, I do not know you in person, and am honestly glad, I don't. I don't understand how the question "how many" translates to "name a few". I never asked you to disclose names.
It also seems as though you have a tencency to read the first sentence and then opine on it, so I highly doubt that you will even get this portion. All I suggested was not to create a bias against one country in your statement when in fact there are many in the same category, most of them developing nations.
I could go on and try to make you understand that it is not a country that creates these issues, it's the mere fact that they are developing, and that it is a survival strategy to select the easy option; but I have a feeling that you will come back with some more incoherent rambling.
Good luck with your job search and hope you find something suitable to your expertise in Canada.
PS: If you do want to spend the next 30 minutes searching for more links, I'd suggest that you broaden your search to other countries as well (e.g. http://www.fbi.gov/sandiego/press-releases/2014/seven-plead-guilty-in-widening-bribery-and-kickback-case)

FSW Applicant, contrary to your assumptions I am an avid reader , in fact reading is my hobby. How else I would know particulars of Indian subcontinent (such as Pakistan having being part of what earlier was India and of Bangladesh being part of Pakistan before second Indian-Pakistan war and etc.) ;D

So, rest assured, I carefully read your replies to me.

Now, what is clear to me reading your reply above is that your response is fueled by emotion , as if someone has assaulted your personal honor and you are obligated to verbally duel and denounce assailant ;D

I suggest you try to put your emotions aside, may be return to this thread and read what I wrote later, when you are in a better mood, and attempt to analyze my statements with reason, not with emotion.Then it shall be clear to you what my point was, and that you took it all wrong and in the astray direction. Your feelings are inflamed now, and I have no desire to further aggravate it.

So, let us peacefully end this unproductive back and forth and focus instead what concerns us the most, the sad state of job marked in Canada and how to overcome our very real challenges in it.

 

[fdk511]

Networking is one of many things available to applicants who are in the market for new opportunities. In a tough market, especially in current climate, standing out is a challenge.

I would caution though that broad generalities are very difficult to back up without firm data. Since our move to Canada, I have moved across three organizations without requiring any networking. This has been in spite of being a visible minority, with significant experience outside North America.

Another former colleague recently moved from Saudi Arabia to Red Deer to join a petrochemical organization. He applied on the company's website, got a call from their corporate recruiter, and through phone/skype interviews landed a job.

A former classmate spent 14 months in Toronto looking for jobs which required logistics/supply-chain experience before landing an opportunity in Calgary - again didn't require any networking.

On the flip side, my next door neighbor has found each job in construction safety through referrals, word-of-mouth etc.

In either cases, I would be hard pressed to generalize the proper way one would find a job in Canada.

Everyone has their own experiences to share, including second/third-hand accounts - these should be used to provide perspectives, not as absolutes.

 

[david1697]

I believe if you have some rare and specialized skill you can easily land job anywhere. In US , when we had an official recession (supposedly our economy had recovered since), anyone having certain skills (engineers, etc) could easily land $90K jobs. In fact, many openings weren't filled because there were no candidates at all. I remember , the worst days of economic crisis when people were laid off by thousands, some articles would appear where corporate HR's complained that they can't find anyone to fill so many vacancies they had.

So, if you are a petrochemical engineer in Pakistan who specializes on certain aspects of it, and you apply for a certain job in Canada where exactly your skills and education are needed, chances are you are the only one applying for that job (or only one qualified to fill the position).
If that's the case, then of course you will get hired.

I remember the days in US where almost ANY field had so many vacancies that it didn't matter what you wanted to do, it seemed like jobs were everywhere.

When economy is strong everyone is a proverbial "petrochemical engineer". When economy struggles, that's when all the schemes, corruption and childish behaviors enter the game, unless you really are a p-c engineer or something else still highly sought after in the market.

I believe, the current state of economy in Canada is far from strong.

And, as a matter of fact, I don't think FSW family such as ours has a chance to land a job in Canada. Not after hundreds of resumes sent online and not a single company bothering to contact and invite to an interview.

 

[fdk511]

@David1697, I agree with your sentiment in general about expertise/specialized skills, but in my circle of friends/professional acquaintances, there are only a few who I would categorize as having rare/specialized skills. Not all of my acquaintances are in the engineering field. Among my friends are financial analysts, system admins and project engineers who are doing what anyone else would be doing in these fields. A few of them took the time-tested approach of getting their Canadian PR while in the US, and moved here once they faced job or immigration constraints in the US.

In 2006 when I finished my Masters in Chemical Engineering from the US, I struggled for almost 6 months to find a job before deciding to head back home. Throughout this time, the constant refrain I heard from potential employers was along the lines of either "we don't sponsor H-1Bs for chemical engineers" or "well, we would have sponsored you if you had a PhD". I did not take my individual experience to extrapolate that there are NO jobs in the US (though it felt like it). I just figured I was not in the right place at the right time, and decided it was not worth my time, effort (and of course money) to continue to stay in the US.

You, and others, have shared the frustrations with job-hunt across several threads on this forum. Unlike others who have been forced to experience this while being in the country and maybe doing survival jobs, you are relatively luckier that you are gainfully employed in your preferred field in a country where you are not facing deadlines driven by immigration processes to make your status permanent. While the frustration you feel is definitely genuine, it should not be used to generalize about the economy in Canada, which I agree is facing considerable strain at the moment - just like a lot of other countries around the world which have natural resource driven economies.

On a side-note, what is a "petrol-chemical" engineer?

 

[david1697]

@ David1697, I agree with your sentiment in general about expertise/specialized skills, but in my circle of friends/professional acquaintances, there are only a few who I would categorize as having rare/specialized skills. Not all of my acquaintances are in the engineering field. Among my friends are financial analysts, system admins and project engineers who are doing what anyone else would be doing in these fields. A few of them took the time-tested approach of getting their Canadian PR while in the US, and moved here once they faced job or immigration constraints in the US.

In 2006 when I finished my Masters in Chemical Engineering from the US, I struggled for almost 6 months to find a job before deciding to head back home. Throughout this time, the constant refrain I heard from potential employers was along the lines of either "we don't sponsor H-1Bs for chemical engineers" or "well, we would have sponsored you if you had a PhD". I did not take my individual experience to extrapolate that there are NO jobs in the US (though it felt like it). I just figured I was not in the right place at the right time, and decided it was not worth my time, effort (and of course money) to continue to stay in the US.

You, and others, have shared the frustrations with job-hunt across several threads on this forum. Unlike others who have been forced to experience this while being in the country and maybe doing survival jobs, you are relatively luckier that you are gainfully employed in your preferred field in a country where you are not facing deadlines driven by immigration processes to make your status permanent. While the frustration you feel is definitely genuine, it should not be used to generalize about the economy in Canada, which I agree is facing considerable strain at the moment - just like a lot of other countries around the world which have natural resource driven economies.

On a side-note, what is a "petrol-chemical" engineer?

I am not sure what "petrol-chemical" is , I was writing "petro-chemical" (meaning "petrochemical"), and had it changed to "petrol-chemical" by the grammar-check software on this website.

As to current state of economy, I don't think it's an indication of a healthy economy when ONLY ONE OUT OF 200+ applicants can get a job (which is very common job applicants vs vacancy ratio), this is literally a SICK economy, no matter how you try to put it. And that's what the economy of Canada is like now. It's sick. Let's not try to sugarcoat it.
Soon you will have to have a PHD to be hired as a receptionist in a large corporation (you already can't get that position without "networking", but BS still will do). That's not normal. That's an indication of screwed up economy.

I know how screwed up things are, because I remember how they were when economy was healthy.