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Staying outside with maintaining 731 days

wiking1018

Newbie
Apr 21, 2017
9
0
Hi,

I came to Canada June 10th 2012 and from my calculation I stayed 1085 days out of 1095 days abroad due to my college education. So till 10th June 2017, I have 10 days balance so can I go abroad for 9 days without any problem? I already booked ticket and upon calculating everything till June 10th 2017, I can see that I stayed in Canada for 731 days. I think its not big serious problem

Note: already applied for PR card renewal and its under secondary review but it doesn't matter as current PR card expired.

Please help!
 

Buletruck

VIP Member
May 18, 2015
6,878
2,711
I'm a little confused....you plan to travel without your PR card
Note: already applied for PR card renewal and its under secondary review but it doesn't matter as current PR card expired.
and it's already under secondary review?

With a calculated 731 days in Canada, that would be cutting it extremely close for RO. I wouldn't risk it personally, but it's up to you. If you don't have a PR card when you travel you will need to apply for a PRTD to come back, which might add more delays/investigation to your secondary review.
 

wiking1018

Newbie
Apr 21, 2017
9
0
oops its typing mistake.... my pr card expires only on june 10th,2017. and I already applied for new PR card 2 month ago and its under secondary review since I stayed most of time outside... I already booked ticket so I am going for 9 days anyway....
 

wiking1018

Newbie
Apr 21, 2017
9
0
So if I go like this is it cause more delays in PR renewal (Not using PRTD)?

Is it make more scene with officer when I return to canada?
 

Buletruck

VIP Member
May 18, 2015
6,878
2,711
If you don't have a valid PR card by the time you leave on your trip and don't apply for a PRTD, you won't be coming back to have a scene with CBSA. They won't let you on the plane without either a valid PR card or a PRTD.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
wiking1018 said:
Hi,

I came to Canada June 10th 2012 and from my calculation I stayed 1085 days out of 1095 days abroad due to my college education. So till 10th June 2017, I have 10 days balance so can I go abroad for 9 days without any problem? I already booked ticket and upon calculating everything till June 10th 2017, I can see that I stayed in Canada for 731 days. I think its not big serious problem

Note: already applied for PR card renewal and its under secondary review but it doesn't matter as current PR card expired.

Please help!

wiking1018 said:
oops its typing mistake.... my pr card expires only on june 10th,2017. and I already applied for new PR card 2 month ago and its under secondary review since I stayed most of time outside... I already booked ticket so I am going for 9 days anyway....
You might NOT actually have "10 days balance." The date your PR card expires has NOTHING to do with calculating compliance with the PR RO.

It is highly unlikely you arrived and landed, becoming a PR, on June 10, 2012 AND your PR card expires on June 10, 2017. Your PR card expires five years, to the day, from the date the card was issued, not from the date you landed.

In other words, if your PR card expires June 10, 2017, it is almost certain you landed in April or May 2012 (or even earlier). Compliance with the PR RO, based on 731 days presence within the first five years, will be based on the date you actually landed.

There are probably a dozen or more topics in this forum where I make observations about the risks of cutting-it-close, and it warrants noting that anything less than 800 days in Canada is cutting-it-close, and even less than 900 days might be cutting-it-close depending on other circumstances.

All CBSA or IRCC has to do is doubt two days of your claims about presence, and unless you can then provide proof of all the days you claim to have been in Canada, that can be deemed to be a breach of the PR Residency Obligation and this determination will likely be upheld as valid in law.

You probably should NOT rely on an inference about being in Canada between dates of arrival and dates of exit; you may need to affirmatively prove actual presence in-between those dates.

That said, there are many other aspects in your situation which will likely have a lot of influence in how things go. These range from whether your family is settled and living in Canada to the extent to which you are now settled and living in Canada, or not.

It appears you intend to travel regardless. Be aware there are risks, and perhaps big risks. There is a very real risk you could lose PR status. That is, that you might be issued a Removal Order at the border, and then you would still be allowed to enter Canada, and could appeal that, but the risk is you lose PR status. Again, the extent of this risk depends on many factors other than just the number of days. Of course, if officers are persuaded that you were in Canada 731 days in the relevant time period, you will be fine. And if you are now settled and staying in Canada even if they conclude you fell short of that by a few days, you should still be fine, but not for sure. But again, a lot depends on things like how strong and continuing you have current ties to a life in Canada.

With your PRC application in Secondary Review you are probably flagged to be further examined if you arrive at a PoE from abroad. Be prepared to explain your situation in detail, including an explanation for why you have been abroad as much as you have, and to affirmatively document all days you have been present in Canada. Have paperwork in your hands (best to include something that shows you were still in Canada just nine or ten days earlier, to show you were in Canada and just left for a nine day trip abroad; but also have whatever documents you can to show when you have been in Canada).

Frankly, traveling abroad in your situation appears to be reckless if you want to preserve your PR status, but that is of course a matter of personal judgment and priorities. That is for you to decide.
 

wiking1018

Newbie
Apr 21, 2017
9
0
First of all, I am saying sorry for not giving clear information.

I understand I took a big risky task but I can provide details about my calculation so I can see its right or wrong.

I landed Canada on 10th June 2012, after that I left to India on June 30th 2012 since I was pursuing my college education in India. Also I think my parents received my PR card on July I don't remember.

According to my PR card it says I'm PR since 10th June 2012 also its expiry date is 31th July 17 which I don't understand why expiration date looks like 1 month ahead so I am calculating my 5 year from 10th June 2012.


I used Canada physical presence calculator to find out how many days left.

so my absence in Canada are:

30 June 2012 - 4 December 2013

1 Jan 2014 - 17 June 2015

18th November 2015 -18th December 15

20 Dec 2016 - 25 Dec 2016

Which says I was outside for 1085 days out of 1095 days...

@dpenabill, can you check these please whether I'm right or not?
 

Leon

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Jun 13, 2008
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wiking1018 said:
First of all, I am saying sorry for not giving clear information.

I understand I took a big risky task but I can provide details about my calculation so I can see its right or wrong.

I landed Canada on 10th June 2012, after that I left to India on June 30th 2012 since I was pursuing my college education in India. Also I think my parents received my PR card on July I don't remember.

According to my PR card it says I'm PR since 10th June 2012 also its expiry date is 31th July 17 which I don't understand why expiration date looks like 1 month ahead so I am calculating my 5 year from 10th June 2012.


I used Canada physical presence calculator to find out how many days left.

so my absence in Canada are:

30 June 2012 - 4 December 2013

1 Jan 2014 - 17 June 2015

18th November 2015 -18th December 15

20 Dec 2016 - 25 Dec 2016

Which says I was outside for 1085 days out of 1095 days...

@dpenabill, can you check these please whether I'm right or not?
You are right but you are still cutting it close. If only one of your dates are wrong, you lose a day and end up short if you go on your planned trip. In your shoes, I would skip it. Besides, you are not allowed 1095 days outside, only 1094 because if you look at the form, they ask you for specific explanation if you have 1095 days outside or more.

Once you are a PR for a full 5 years, you only have to worry about the past 5 years at any time so at that point, you can travel after June 30th because you would not be losing any days spent in Canada 5 years earlier by doing that, you would just be replacing the absence 5 years earlier with another absence.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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I concur in the observations offered by Leon, with the caveat that I tend to steer clear of trying to make or verify precise calculations. You can do that, make the calculations for yourself, and make your own decisions based on that, based on your confidence in the accuracy and completeness of the dates and calculation.

The important number of days in making the calculation are relatively simple:
-- no more than 1094 days of absence between the date of landing and the fifth year anniversary of that day, and
-- after the fifth year anniversary, at least 730 days presence in the five years immediately preceding whatever day it is (as in the PR must always have been present 730+ days within the preceding five years).

And, of course, the calculation needs to be based on the all the precise dates the PR exited Canada and entered Canada.

That said, when you are cutting-it-close, and particularly when you are cutting it so close as you already have and will be even more so by traveling abroad while you PRC application is in Secondary Review, other facts and circumstances are important.

There is no magic, automatic guarantee that CBSA or IRCC will agree with your accounting of trips outside Canada. The burden of proving presence in Canada sufficient to comply with the PR Residency Obligation is on the PR.

Thus, it would be a mistake to approach your decision-making based entirely on a precise calculation cutting it this close. Again, other factors loom large and can make a huge difference.

As I noted, you are probably already flagged for a Secondary examination regarding compliance with the PR Residency Obligation if you arrive at a PoE. If you are prepared for that, and confident of your calculation, and you are now settled and living in Canada (which it appears you are, based on pattern of absences), and of course you remain calm and polite and responsive during the examination, the odds are probably good it will go fine.

But there are risks. Risks ranging from a miscalculation in your dates (more than a few PRs have mistakenly relied on an entry stamp into another country to report their date of exit from Canada, when it fact the flight left Canada the day before or even two days before . . . this being just one example of a common error) to encountering a less-than-friendly CBSA officer who doubts your credibility, among other risks such as events resulting in a delayed return to Canada (from flights cancelled to car accidents; stuff happens).

Reminder: decision-making when confronted with risks is not just about the probabilities, it is also about the seriousness of the consequences. You are cutting-it-close enough that PR status is potentially at stake. That's what you are gambling with.

I could readily guess, from what you have shared, you have good odds of this going OK. But again, there are risks. And the choice is yours, only yours.

You know the facts. You know your history, your ties to Canada, how well you can document when you have been in Canada. You know your priorities. You should have a fair idea how well you can respond to questions in a setting like Secondary at a PoE, how well you respond under a little pressure or when being questioned. And now this forum has also alerted you to risks beyond the mechanics of counting days and relying on that calculation. What you elect to do is your call, your decision.
 

keesio

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I have 10 days balance so can I go abroad for 9 days without any problem?
[/quote]

Take a closer look at some threads on this forum. It is littered with cases of people who applied with very little "buffer" over the required 730 days and then later found out that they miscalculated or some other issue, got RQ'ed, and bemoan why they didn't just apply with a few extra days of buffers.

You are cutting it close.
 

wiking1018

Newbie
Apr 21, 2017
9
0
I came back after my trip and the clearance process was smooth as CBSA officer didnt say anything about residency obligation .... Anyway thanks for giving detailed information and caring...

Thank you