Status removed from ECAS

[ellia]

Well, we don't know if that's because of the refugees or due to other reasons, like generating a backlog of EE applications, or something. If you look at the general statistics (the link is in a sticky topic on the top of this forum section), you can see that the trend is definitely for processing time to grow, but it started growing in June, with occasional dips here and there.

Again - don't want to start a debate, just thought I'd point out some things that I know about.

fkl - exactly what I mean.

 

[Canadaistheway]

I don't want to get into this debate, just want to point out several things to try and calm things down a bit.
First of all, we don't know the details of how CIC's budget is formed and spent. You've made your assumption and asked others to prove you wrong, but none of us has a way to check that, so it's neither here nor there.
ECAS is down, so actually, we can't know if our applications are moving or not I've read about cases of people getting PPR without ever getting their ECAS acess. While it might sound overly optimistic, I choose to stick to this opinion until I hit 6 months.
MyCIC works, the previous couple days were the first time it was down, as far as I know. (I don't know if there is (or can technically be) any relation, but it's interesting to note that it happened around the time media reported the details of last year's cyber-attack on CRA that led to revision and patching of all government online services).
And lastly, CIC did comment on the issue: in their official Twitter, they said that the refugees will not affect the processing of other streams (including other refugees).

Well, at least we can paint the approximate picture. CIC budget for FY2015 for foreign skilled workers is about CAD 52mil in the first year and about 22 mil thereafter. They plan to bring in around 50,000 applicants. If we assume another 50,000 dependents (which is on the lower end of estimates compared to historical figures) its 100,000 applicants and dependents together. Given the CAD550 processing fee that I paid, they gross at least CAD55 mil, which more than covers their budget. If true, this would turn them a good surplus in the coming years given their CAD20-something budget. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/publications/rpp/2015-2016/index.asp#a2.1.1.1

As for the ECAS, I think the burden of proof lays with CIC. If they were completely transparent, they would immediately release stats on how many applications have been processed and how many still being processed (pretty much like they did for refugees). That and the fact that it would be virtually impossible not to fix such an important issue for so long as well and the fact that refugees report having ECAS (check their forum). I think before criticizing my claims you should check your facts first.

 

[fkl]

It's not about criticism. Permanent residence or citizenship is not a right, it is a privilege.

There is no neutral body forming rules between the parties (us clients vs CIC).

It is CIC laying out the rules and we can either accept and play by those or we can refuse and not go through this process.

There might be far more in justice with people whose cases got refused due to error in part of CIC - missing ECA and what not.

We couldn't have forced CIC to even start this express entry system which says 6 months. We might have been in backlogs of years to process submitting multiple Police certificates and medicals to refresh those for CIC when they please.

One really needs to look at how immigration has been going on in the past and compare it to the recent process.

We are way way lucky to still be processed through the EE system, we have an online way of tracking, have been promised six months.

And compared to even the people in EE - who submitted in the first six months, those who submitted in 2nd half of the year (Sept - Oct) have made much faster progress to at least the first few stages i.e. ecas, bg in process and meds passed.

So i would focus more on appreciative of this part rather than being critical of CIC about some thing i dont know enough about. And i agreed to play BY THEIR RULES with no actual law dictating the details of terms of interaction.

Good luck every one.

 

[Canadaistheway]

It's not about criticism. Permanent residence or citizenship is not a right, it is a privilege.

There is no neutral body forming rules between the parties (us clients vs CIC).

It is CIC laying out the rules and we can either accept and play by those or we can refuse and not go through this process.

There might be far more in justice with people whose cases got refused due to error in part of CIC - missing ECA and what not.

We couldn't have forced CIC to even start this express entry system which says 6 months. We might have been in backlogs of years to process submitting multiple Police certificates and medicals to refresh those for CIC when they please.

One really needs to look at how immigration has been going on in the past and compare it to the recent process.

We are way way lucky to still be processed through the EE system, we have an online way of tracking, have been promised six months.

And compared to even the people in EE in the first six months the late part (Sept - Oct) have made much faster progress to at least the first few stages i.e. ecas, bg in process and meds passed.

So i would focus more on appreciative of this part rather than being critical of CIC about some thing i dont know enough about. And i agreed to play BY THEIR RULES with no actual law dictating the details of terms of interaction.

Good luck every one.

Of course it's a privilege. But this is not a rights and privileges issue. This is keeping your promises and transparency issue.

Consider yourself lucky all you want, but the fact of the matter is I would never apply under the old system with years of processing. I have been targeting Canada for years and never considering to apply exactly because of stated processing times. It is the Express Entry system that provided the credible and fair immigration system that I had never seen before. That is the values that I bought into and decided to put my time and resources into pursuing this. Now that I am all in you are telling me to stand still until CIC apparently uses our money to further their political endeavors. Thank you but no thank you.

I hope I am grossly wrong about this and coming months will tell if CIC was properly processing apps, in which case I will apologize and consider myself priviliged. Until then, I will wait for some more and if no news pursue other options. There are numerous countries (think about Australia/New Zealand/Singapore/Hong Kong/Switzerland/Germany/Sweden or even USA) willing to actually process your application with the money you pay and at least give some feedback if not welcome skilled workers.

 

[ellia]

Oh come on, I am not "critisizing" your claims, I said twice that I don't want to make it another debate. I just posted my thoughts and (limited) knowledge on the topic, without claiming that's how things actually are, and am just trying to stay positive.
What facts do you want me to check? I didn't give any, apart from the one bit about CIC actually addressing the topic (when you said they didn't). Here's the link: https://twitter.com/CitImmCanada/status/672077981410574336
In fact, you didn't give any facts on the topic, either - just circumstantial facts on the CIC budget and your interpretation of them.

It's not about criticism. Permanent residence or citizenship is not a right, it is a privilege.
There is no neutral body forming rules between the parties (us clients vs CIC).
It is CIC laying out the rules and we can either accept and play by those or we can refuse and not go through this process.

+1. (In fact, we're all clicking "I accept" every time we log into the MyCIC )
Also, remember that the new system is not even a year old. Maybe my expectations are way too low, but it's great that there weren't any major tech problems up til now.

 

[Canadaistheway]

Oh come on, I am not "critisizing" your claims, I said twice that I don't want to make it another debate. I just posted my thoughts and (limited) knowledge on the topic, without claiming that's how things actually are, and am just trying to stay positive.
What facts do you want me to check? I didn't give any, apart from the one bit about CIC actually addressing the topic (when you said they didn't). Here's the link: https://twitter.com/CitImmCanada/status/672077981410574336
In fact, you didn't give any facts on the topic, either - just circumstantial facts on the CIC budget and your interpretation of them.
+1. (In fact, we're all clicking "I accept" every time we log into the MyCIC )
Also, remember that the new system is not even a year old. Maybe my expectations are way too low, but it's great that there weren't any major tech problems up til now.

I am just asking to check the validity of the twitter statement.
Otherwise, it could just be some agent posting their own contradictory opinion just like different agents make different statements when calling CIC.

As for me:

Annual budget for 2015 being CAD52mil = fact
Processing fee = CAD550 = fact
Targeted FSW 50,000 applications and at least as many dependents = fact
100,000 apps X CAD550 = CAD55mil = inference from facts
No ECAS access for most of economic migrants on the forum = fact
No ECAS complaints from refugee forums and recent updates = fact
Almost no FSW PPRs being issued and significantly lower than until October = fact
Transparent processing stats about refugee apps = fact

Economic migrant resources being diverted to process refugee apps = inference from the above context unless proven otherwise

Sounds more convincing than the reasonable grounds/balance of probabilities approach CIC utilizes to process our apps

 

[hamoonExpressEntry]

@Canadaistheway
What's the matter with you focusing on refugees? Are you unhappy that people in need are being helped with the country you chose to live in? Shouldn't you be happy and proud? Instead it has been a couple of posts wherein you are making up these ludicrous conspiracy theories. If you do it about powerful lobbyist and politicians I would not mind. But these are helpless people you are fixating on.

Canadaistheway claims CIC is using our money to process refugee applications. Could he/she tell us then with what money CIC is going to process our applications? Cause they have to process them sometime, right? The processing time is 6 month which is quite awesome, and they did a pretty good job so far in keeping their promise. CIC also allows case specific inquiry if the processing time surpasses the 6 months limit. So what kind of transparency is it that you are looking for? If you cannot be appreciative of Canada then quite frankly my recommendation to you is to seek another country's PR. Please stop claiming CIC is using our application fee for their own political agenda without any proof.

 

[jemdill]

@Canadaistheway
What's the matter with you focusing on refugees? Are you unhappy that people in need are being helped with the country you chose to live in? Shouldn't you be happy and proud? Instead it has been a couple of posts wherein you are making up these ludicrous conspiracy theories. If you do it about powerful lobbyist and politicians I would not mind. But these are helpless people you are fixating on.

Canadaistheway claims CIC is using our money to process refugee applications. Could he/she tell us then with what money CIC is going to process our applications? Cause they have to process them sometime, right? The processing time is 6 month which is quite awesome, and they did a pretty good job so far in keeping their promise. CIC also allows case specific inquiry if the processing time surpasses the 6 months limit. So what kind of transparency is it that you are looking for? If you cannot be appreciative of Canada then quite frankly my recommendation to you is to seek another country's PR. Please stop claiming CIC is using our application fee for their own political agenda without any proof.

Well said

 

[ellia]

Well, I know that's not an argument, but I can't help but think that there always will be things that I don't know about how CIC works and/or spends their money, so it'll always be not enough data to make any reasonable assumptions. And since we don't have enough data, the probability of us just accidentally getting such good agreement in our math as the one you presented seems low for me.
As for the transparency that the refugees enjoy - it's a very political situation, I think, since it was the promise of the newly-elected government, not to mention the resonance the topic has in the world. So I see this transparency as an exception, not a rule. I don't think other, non-Syrian refugees have it too, do they?

As for the numbers: why do you only count FSW? Other economic immigrants paid the same CAD550 fee. As per the document you gave the link to, total economic immigrants target is 172k, plus 63k of dependants (that's the lower estimation). That makes it about 130mil So where does the excess go? I guess it *could* mean the economic immigrans have been paying for the refugees, and maybe some other things, all this time

Also, correct me if I'm misunderstanding it, but there under the budget figures it says that the 15-16 years budget is that high because of the fee refunds they're doing after terminating old applications. So we're paying for that, too.

And finally - I really don't know much about how government works, but CIC is not a business. I mean, I don't think they keep the fees they collect. I believe they send them to the country's budget, and from there get a smaller share as per their planned expenses. The rest might go to funding the free language courses and other newcomers services that Canada offers, for example, or who knows what else.

 

[Canadaistheway]

@Canadaistheway
What's the matter with you focusing on refugees? Are you unhappy that people in need are being helped with the country you chose to live in? Shouldn't you be happy and proud? Instead it has been a couple of posts wherein you are making up these ludicrous conspiracy theories. If you do it about powerful lobbyist and politicians I would not mind. But these are helpless people you are fixating on.

Canadaistheway claims CIC is using our money to process refugee applications. Could he/she tell us then with what money CIC is going to process our applications? Cause they have to process them sometime, right? The processing time is 6 month which is quite awesome, and they did a pretty good job so far in keeping their promise. CIC also allows case specific inquiry if the processing time surpasses the 6 months limit. So what kind of transparency is it that you are looking for? If you cannot be appreciative of Canada then quite frankly my recommendation to you is to seek another country's PR. Please stop claiming CIC is using our application fee for their own political agenda without any proof.

I apologize if that touches your feelings. I know this is a sensitive issue and I mentioned that I am all for helping other people as much as I am able to/can afford. Where did I say they should stop accepting refugees?

All I am asking for is accountability and transparency. Why does an agency's policy failures become being appreciative of Canada issue? I think it is the generalizations like that that make our voices unheard. Frankly, I am appreciative of Canada just because of that: that I can raise my concerns as much as I like, seek accountability and get it. Hope I could make my point without offending anyone.

 

[fkl]

Of course it's a privilege. But this is not a rights and privileges issue. This is keeping your promises and transparency issue.

Consider yourself lucky all you want, but the fact of the matter is I would never apply under the old system with years of processing. I have been targeting Canada for years and never considering to apply exactly because of stated processing times. It is the Express Entry system that provided the credible and fair immigration system that I had never seen before. That is the values that I bought into and decided to put my time and resources into pursuing this. Now that I am all in you are telling me to stand still until CIC apparently uses our money to further their political endeavors. Thank you but no thank you.

I hope I am grossly wrong about this and coming months will tell if CIC was properly processing apps, in which case I will apologize and consider myself priviliged. Until then, I will wait for some more and if no news pursue other options. There are numerous countries (think about Australia/New Zealand/Singapore/Hong Kong/Switzerland/Germany/Sweden or even USA) willing to actually process your application with the money you pay and at least give some feedback if not welcome skilled workers.

A) It was never a promise. The exact statement from CIC was "we will aim to process most applications in six months or less". I don't see promise any where.

B) Regarding your statement about not interested in this system until EE, IT TOTALLY DEPENDS upon one's individual situation.

I was not sitting outside of Canada to apply for PR. I had never even considered living here. But i was offered a job in my precise profession with work permits for myself and family so i moved here - worked for more than a year and paid taxes. So getting PR here is more important and not a choice for me considering right now i risk going out of status with a particular time line. However, when i came in, i knew all this process and system - so there is nothing i should be crying about.

And yes given the circumstances, i consider myself lucky to have a 6 month process since i won't want to leave a well settled life with family and move back again.

If i look at it that way and going by your logic - i might consider myself DESERVING PR more. But there is no such notion, hence i am just contented with what CIC says is their INTENT.

The only reason to quote my circumstances above was to differentiate that applying to Canada based upon years long process or not could vary depending upon every ones individual stakes.

It was not at all attractive to me coming here and start every thing from scratch and look for jobs, meanwhile waste a lot of savings possibly. But the situation changes altogether if you have a good established job and career. So yes i consider myself lucky. To each his own.

 

[fkl]

+1. (In fact, we're all clicking "I accept" every time we log into the MyCIC )
Also, remember that the new system is not even a year old. Maybe my expectations are way too low, but it's great that there weren't any major tech problems up til now.

Acked. That's the whole point. CIC never promises any thing.

 

[fkl]

I am just asking to check the validity of the twitter statement.
Otherwise, it could just be some agent posting their own contradictory opinion just like different agents make different statements when calling CIC.

As for me:

Annual budget for 2015 being CAD52mil = fact
Processing fee = CAD550 = fact
Targeted FSW 50,000 applications and at least as many dependents = fact
100,000 apps X CAD550 = CAD55mil = inference from facts
No ECAS access for most of economic migrants on the forum = fact
No ECAS complaints from refugee forums and recent updates = fact
Almost no FSW PPRs being issued and significantly lower than until October = fact
Transparent processing stats about refugee apps = fact

Economic migrant resources being diverted to process refugee apps = inference from the above context unless proven otherwise

Sounds more convincing than the reasonable grounds/balance of probabilities approach CIC utilizes to process our apps

There is a good deal of backlog for Prior years applications, i.e. those submitted before EE in all other streams. Those are also being processed along and i am not sure at their pace. But all approved cases would be counted towards annual goals of 2015 as well.

So the above numbers miss those figures totally which we have no idea about. May be those backlogs suddenly improved without our knowledge.

 

[Canadaistheway]

Well, I know that's not an argument, but I can't help but think that there always will be things that I don't know about how CIC works and/or spends their money, so it'll always be not enough data to make any reasonable assumptions. And since we don't have enough data, the probability of us just accidentally getting such good agreement in our math as the one you presented seems low for me.
As for the transparency that the refugees enjoy - it's a very political situation, I think, since it was the promise of the newly-elected government, not to mention the resonance the topic has in the world. So I see this transparency as an exception, not a rule. I don't think other, non-Syrian refugees have it too, do they?

As for the numbers: why do you only count FSW? Other economic immigrants paid the same CAD550 fee. As per the document you gave the link to, total economic immigrants target is 172k, plus 63k of dependants (that's the lower estimation). That makes it about 130mil So where does the excess go? I guess it *could* mean the economic immigrans have been paying for the refugees, and maybe some other things, all this time

Also, correct me if I'm misunderstanding it, but there under the budget figures it says that the 15-16 years budget is that high because of the fee refunds they're doing after terminating old applications. So we're paying for that, too.

And finally - I really don't know much about how government works, but CIC is not a business. I mean, I don't think they keep the fees they collect. I believe they send them to the country's budget, and from there get a smaller share as per their planned expenses. The rest might go to funding the free language courses and other newcomers services that Canada offers, for example, or who knows what else.

Good analysis.

I just picked FSW as an example (and also because that's my category as well ). The CAD52mil I mentioned was the budget for FSW program alone. So, no, in total CIC does not have a surplus (you can see if you scroll down). It is just the FSW program that is going to cover itself. Others are most likely not as self-sustaining.

As for the settlement funds/language courses/etc. my understanding was that these were being funded by PR fees (the ones asked by RPRFs)

 

[Canadaistheway]

A) It was never a promise. The exact statement from CIC was "we will aim to process most applications in six months or less". I don't see promise any where.

B) Regarding your statement about not interested in this system until EE, IT TOTALLY DEPENDS upon one's individual situation.

I was not sitting outside of Canada to apply for PR. I had never even considered living here. But i was offered a job in my precise profession with work permits for myself and family so i moved here. Worked for more than a year and paid taxes. So getting PR here is more important and not a choice for me considering right now i risk going out of status with a particular time line. However, when i came in, i know all this process and system - so there is nothing i should be crying about.

And yes given the circumstances, i consider lucky to have a 6 month process since i won't want to leave a well settled life with family and move back again.

If i look at it that way and going by your logic - i might consider myself DESERVING PR more. But there is no such notion, hence i am just contented with what CIC says is their INTENT.

The only reason to quote my circumstances above was to differentiate that applying to Canada based upon years long process or not could vary depending upon every ones individual stakes.

It was not at all attractive to me coming here start every thing from scratch and look for jobs, waste a lot of savings possibly meanwhile. But the situation changes altogether if you have a good established job and career. So yes i consider myself lucky. To each his own.

By promise I meant more like brand/lifestyle/values promise. Not word for word promise. What you say is like the tricky ads we see on tv, like the ones where they offer a solution but the fine print underneath makes it completely unworthy. Also, the key word is INTENT. I don't see so much intent in what they are doing any more from the very limited communication we get from them. E.g. my CSE from almost two months ago went ignored.

I totally respect your situation though and consider your positivity on this very inspiring. At least you knew what to expect and I wish you the best.