cempjwi said:
Not everyone reads the manuals. The CIC website also says:
I have found errors in the CIC website - if what it said were correct, they would have refused my second application, in fact. In this specific case, the CIC website is actually factually incorrect - but this is a point that's been beaten to death on this specific site.
From the first post in this thread:
If your spouse is staying in Canada as a visitor or on some other visa, you can pick whether you want to apply outland or inland. Outland is generally faster and has appeal rights but a downside to outland is that if an interview is required, your spouse will have to travel to the visa office in the country where it's being processed. Inland has the downside that it's generally not advised that your spouse travels while you are waiting for your processing because it is a requirement of inland that they reside in Canada and if they are denied entry at the border for some reason, your application is gone. If an interview is required for inland, you may also have to wait a long time for it. The inland application would be sent to Vegreville and if all goes well, you would get a first stage approval, usually in 6 to 8 months. The current processing times can be seen here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/canada/process-in.asp#perm_res Then the file is forwarded to your local CIC office where you live and they will contact you for a landing appointment. Getting the PR with inland usually takes 12-18 months. If an interview is required for inland, Vegreville will not give first stage approval but instead will forward the application to the local CIC office without it and you will have to wait for them to have time for your interview. In some cases that can take a year or two. If you do get the first stage approval, your spouse will usually be eligible for health care and an open work permit. It is actually a good idea when applying inland to send an application form for a visit visa extension as well as the open work permit to be given at first stage approval all in one package so it's tied together.
This specific issue is one in which I've actually disagreed with this advice in the past, but it is definitely situational. If someone is inside Canada and out-of-status, I'd never suggest they apply outland, even if they are allowed to do so, due to the public policy (see IP 8) that allows someone "out of status" to apply via the "spouse in Canada class". CBSA won't pursue a removal order against them absent other issues (normally criminality).
Many people make a big deal about the fact that one has a "right of appeal" with an Outland application that one does not have with an Inland application. However, for people appealing to the IAD in Toronto, the time for an appeal hearing is something like 2.5 YEARS, though an ADR can sometimes resolve things within 12-18 months. If one applies Inland, the only option to a refused application is to apply to Federal Court for leave and judicial review, but at least it doesn't take 2.5 years to get a hearing.
I guess the application packages must mean something when they are referred to as in or outside Canada when the applicant live in or outside Canada, or do i have it completely wrong? Of course, that is 'technically'. Nothing says you cannot move about after your application is lodged. I even have agreed with that fact when I have responded to previous posts.
As I often point out, trying to rely upon CIC for geographical location advice isn't very good - CPP-O is considered a "visa office outside Canada". While Ottawa may be detached from reality at times I suspect we can agree it is inside Canada.
In fact, if you read the processing manuals and regulations they clearly state that you must be habitually residing with your sponsor in Canada - they are very clear on this requirement. On the other side of this (outland) nothing in the processing manual, the IRPA or IRPR says anything about the residence of the foreign national applicant.
Thus, my approach with the CIC website is to trust it until I have some reason to question the veracity of what it says - then I go read the law and regulations, because they are definitive, and the operating manuals, because they represent CIC's interpretation of same.
Here's another example: the CIC website says you should apply for a new temporary status document (work, study or visit) 30 days in advance. But IRPR is clear on this point - you just have to apply before expiration of your existing status document.
In my case, my first application was refused due to medical inadmissibility ("excessive demand"). The same page you quote also says:
A foreign national cannot become a permanent resident in Canada if he or she is inadmissible for reasons other than lack of legal immigration status in Canada.
A temporary resident permit (TRP) holder is inadmissible unless the circumstances that lead to the issuance of the TRP are resolved.
The person being sponsored must resolve the circumstances that resulted in the inadmissibility before submitting an application for permanent residence.
It was not possible for me to "resolve the circumstances that resulted in the inadmissibility". Even if I'd been granted JR (an outcome that I had concluded was more likely than not based upon case law as well as how the issue was ultimately resolved with CIC - they pushed my second application through) it would not have resolved the inadmissibility. I was told by multiple people (including two different and unrelated lawyers) that this was definitely not true in my case. My conclusion was that the only way to obtain a definitive answer was to submit the application to CIC and find out what they determined was the case.
Initially, I had expected to file for inland sponsorship (in all fairness, I suspect it would have led to almost exactly the same amount of time to process the application given my unique circumstances) but ultimately chose to go outland because I HAD researched it. Estimated processing time (in February 2012) for an inland application was 19 months (11 months for sponsor approval, 8 months for applicant approval) and for outland it was 6 weeks (sponsor approval) + 12 months (Buffalo processing time). It was discouraging to watch sponsor approval time rise to over 3 months and to see them close Buffalo and move all those files to Ottawa at the same time inland time plummeted to 6 months (sponsor approval) + 8 months (applicant). I actually saw at least one March 2012 applicant (same time I applied) landed around the same time that I did (October 2012).
Now, having said that, I am in no way trying to be antagositic towards you or your advice - I think you do an outstanding job and you are full of valuable knowledge, like many others on here. I didn't mean your particular immigration story was an easy one; I meant exactly what I said, not everyone has a fairy tale immigration story; mine hasn't and because I 'listened' to advice (even from so called expert lawyers that didn't weight in all options but personal and professional experience, my story continues to be sour and for that my spouse suffers too). When I write a response I write it from the point of view of that everyone should be cautious on how they proceed - a small mistake, and your life may suffer a set back that is sometimes irreversible. Research is key and a well thought out decision is the outmost important for everyone looking for answers here. So I prefer to say to them that they have 1 and 2, than just say, you are better off with 1 than 2, or vice versa (because obviously, I do not know everything about them). If my answers are perceived and/or misconstrued as an agenda of some sort because it they are not what most people would like to hear, then they are not even ready to ask the questions.
I do agree that people need to be cautious. I've had mediocre experiences as well. My original attorney basically washed his hands of me when I found out about the medical issue (from the immigration physical). My second attorney specialized in these cases but I'd already learned a healthy dose of distrust. I've spent way too much time learning about a rather esoteric area in IRPA and by the time I was ready to put together the spousal application I was far more comfortable doing it - I pulled it together in a matter of two months. The testament to the fact it was properly completed is that it was approved in record time. The "record time" had as much to do with the pending JR application hearing, but if there had been any issue in the application they wouldn't have approved it, pressure from Justice Canada or not. In fact my application was reviewed twice. The first time the officer decided everything looked fine, but said it required further review because of the prior refusal. Just a few days later (that's the sign of external pressure) a senior officer picked it up, concluded the same thing and then also determined the prior refusal wasn't applicable in the second application and that but for that one irrelevant issue I'd have been granted PR before.
I'm sorry to hear you had bad advice. I'll have to go back and see if I can find posts about your story.
