Sponsor's mother backed out of letter she gave. Advice on our situation, please?

[epmarshall]

Hi all,

I am a US citizen. My boyfriend and I recently became common law and are planning on applying for PR soon. I apologize in advance for the long story and drama surrounding this post, but here goes.

We have run into an issue and it requires some background info to explain. My boyfriend's mother wrote us a letter and got it notarized. Her letter was really essential to our application because 8 months of our common law time was spent living under her roof. We didn't have that great of a relationship with bf's mom while living there, so we moved out when we could and are now living in our own place. But back then she would monitor us and criticize everything we did and it got to the point where I was afraid of doing anything at all in her house. There's more to it, but she didn't like me at all. I don't know the reason, but I suspect it is because I am quiet and I admit I made things very awkward at times because of this. Either way, she apologized after we moved out, citing other reasons and issues that caused her to behave this way, and we were ready to move on from this and try to have a good relationship with her again.

But recently, because she doesn't like my bf's career choices (leaving work to try business for a while), she has rescinded her offer to help and says we can't use her letter. She blames me for his choice and started making up crazy stories that I was afraid to be at home alone and I made him quit his job, which is ridiculous because I tried to talk with him to make sure he was serious, but in the end he decided it was something we could afford and I support him. And he can afford to take a stab at it, he has ~45-48k or so in savings for us to live on in the meantime.

We have had issues with her in the past and she has even threatened me before on occasions, and was half doing so on the phone with my bf today as well. I have literally never raised my voice to her and always did try to be polite, so I just don't know what the issue is and why she is connecting these two events. So my boyfriend's had enough since she's constantly making things up about me, and just told her today that he wants nothing to do with her anymore.

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So basically now I have a few concerns that I would really appreciate some advice on.

-I am worried she will try and make up a story to CIC and complicate our application. I really don't know if she would go this far, I just don't know what to think about her at the moment.

-I know losing her letter will hurt our common law application greatly, so we are thinking of going the spousal route instead. We have been thinking about it for a while now anyway, even when relations were better, so I was wondering a few questions. For spousal sponsorship, you just need to prove the relationship is genuine, correct? And you don't have to prove that you were living together or anything?

And would we need letters? My mom has already sent us a notarized letter and is more than happy to support.

We have joint lease, joint bank account, phone bill, receipts, pictures, and more. We probably have enough to prove the relationship, but I was worried about the common law evidence and now I pretty much know it's insufficient and am just looking for someone to confirm that so we can revamp our plan.

Thanks so much for reading this long post. I would really appreciate any advice.

 

[profiler]

I don't think they actually contact the authors of notarised letters. I would think that if the person was of sound mind, gave the statement to a notary and paid the fee, and swore to it as true, they wouldn't need to look further. That said, when you swear to something, it's something you are claiming is true. So I would try to use it anyway if she gave it to you already.

Spousal does have a lighter (hah!) burden in terms of what you need to prove the relationship. But it isn't negligible either. However, they may ask about your relationship with his mother.

If you are in a common-law relationship, then you do need at least two notarised letters for your application package.

 

[canadianwoman]

Frankly, you could try applying common-law with her letter, but I would be wary. First, she might contact CIC and say you weren't living with her, or some other lie. Second, just a notarized letter to prove you were living together for 8 of the needed 12 months is not much proof.
If you have other proof you were living there for the 8 months, such as letters addressed to both of you at that address, utility bills at the same address, and so on, it would be less risky.
IMO, I think you should either marry, or wait until you have lived together for 12 months after leaving her house. If you are married, you don't have to prove you have lived together. Since you have, you should say so, and include the proof of cohabitation, but it is not going to result in the refusal of the application if there is not enough to prove 12 months. Letters and affidavits from family members and friends can also be used with a married application - they should then attest that your relationship is genuine.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

-I am worried she will try and make up a story to CIC and complicate our application. I really don't know if she would go this far, I just don't know what to think about her at the moment.

-I know losing her letter will hurt our common law application greatly, so we are thinking of going the spousal route instead. We have been thinking about it for a while now anyway, even when relations were better, so I was wondering a few questions. For spousal sponsorship, you just need to prove the relationship is genuine, correct? And you don't have to prove that you were living together or anything?

IRCC takes poison pen letters with a grain of salt, so don't be concerned about that. I recall you stating that you have some other proofs showing that you lived with her, yes? Do you have letters from the neighbors, friends and other family members confirming you lived there?

I would just submit the letter anyways. IRCC is not going to contact her. If you want to get married, then of course, get married.

 

[CDNPR2014]

IRCC takes poison pen letters with a grain of salt, so don't be concerned about that.

i know someone personally that had an interview triggered because of a poison pen letter or complaint from a family member, so it could cause some delay. it doesn't necessarily trigger a rejection.

if you plan on getting married, then i'd recommend going that route. you won't need to worry about her letter at that point because you don't need to prove cohabitation with a married application. letters are good for support, but not required for married couples. so the one from your mother would hold just as much weight (if any). you don't need to do a big fancy wedding. it is perfectly fine to have something with a small group. many of us have done that and have had no issue. you will want to make sure some family or important people are there.

Otherwise, if marriage is not an option, i'd send it in with the letter, assuming it's already said and done. take the chance and call her bluff. include as much information about your cohabitation as you can and you'll be fine.

 

[keesio]

I know losing her letter will hurt our common law application greatly, so we are thinking of going the spousal route instead. We have been thinking about it for a while now anyway, even when relations were better, so I was wondering a few questions. For spousal sponsorship, you just need to prove the relationship is genuine, correct? And you don't have to prove that you were living together or anything?

When you mention "Spouse", I assume you mean getting married. Yes, getting married would remove a lot of headaches for you. You do need to prove that relationship is genuine, but US/Canadian couples have a relatively low threshold to meet. And judging from your history together, I'd say that you have little to worry about.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

i know someone personally that had an interview triggered because of a poison pen letter or complaint from a family member, so it could cause some delay. it doesn't necessarily trigger a rejection.

If they were called for an interview just because of a letter, it meant that they really didn't have a very strong app to begin with.

This is a Canadian-American couple that has been together for a few years, so a poison pen letter from the mother likely wouldn't do anything, except maybe a request for more cohabitation proof if she claims they didn't live with her.

 

[CDNPR2014]

If they were called for an interview just because of a letter, it meant that they really didn't have a very strong app to begin with..

actually i don't think that's what happened. i'm sure the extra proof they took to the interview helped them, but they were specifically told that was the reason. i know i don't have the whole story and i don't think it's always as black and white. it's certainly going to depend on a lot of factors we can't possibly know about. i agree, switching to a married couple application will probably be "easier" for the OP.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

actually i don't think that's what happened. i'm sure the extra proof they took to the interview helped them, but they were specifically told that was the reason. i know i don't have the whole story and i don't think it's always as black and white.

I understand that the letter was the reason they were called for an interview. That means that the VO didn't think that their app was strong enough to overcome whatever was said in the letter. Had their app been strong enough, the VO would have dismissed the letter for what it was.

 

[CDNPR2014]

I understand that the letter was the reason they were called for an interview. That means that the VO didn't think that their app was strong enough to overcome whatever was said in the letter. Had their app been strong enough, the VO would have dismissed the letter for what it was.

fair enough.

 

[epmarshall]

Hi again, everyone! Sorry it took me a bit to reply. I appreciate all the comments. I was half waiting to see if the situation would change regarding bf's mom, but it hasn't, so we'll definitely just have to go from there. A few mentioned our common law proofs, so I compiled a list of the basic common law evidence we have in case it helps. I don't think it's that much and feel that spousal sponsorship/marriage is probably the safer route.

Also, please remember there are 2 addresses from our common law time.

Evidence:
-Mail/holiday cards from most of the 12 months, but not every single one (including government stuff)
-Travelodge receipt showing both our names from a Niagara Falls trip in Feb. this year
-Notarized letter from bf's mom stating we lived at her house for x months
-Notarized letter from my mom
-Current lease with both names from May 1, 2016 and on
-I've been added to his phone bill account, so my name shows up on there.
-We have a joint bank account (since Feb 2016) under his main account, but haven't used it very much, just for some things.
-CRA common law status printscreen showing change of bf's marital status
-Stat Declaration of common law (we don't have this yet, but we can get it soon enough)

Even if we use his mom's letter, I would feel worried about my evidence quality. So to me the spousal option seems to take this from kind of a worrisome common law app to a pretty okay spousal app (correct me if I'm wrong).

Any more opinions are welcome especially now that I've written out the evidence.

I don't think they actually contact the authors of notarised letters. I would think that if the person was of sound mind, gave the statement to a notary and paid the fee, and swore to it as true, they wouldn't need to look further. That said, when you swear to something, it's something you are claiming is true. So I would try to use it anyway if she gave it to you already.

Thanks for the reply, Profiler. We are thinking about just using the letter in our application, I mean she did notarize it and all, so if she says it's untrue then it's not really going to fly.

But could doing so without her permission cause us any issues?

Frankly, you could try applying common-law with her letter, but I would be wary. First, she might contact CIC and say you weren't living with her, or some other lie. Second, just a notarized letter to prove you were living together for 8 of the needed 12 months is not much proof.

Yes, I know. I have posted the other proofs above, so you can see if you still think it's lacking. And thank you for the advice you gave, I appreciate it canadianwoman.

IRCC takes poison pen letters with a grain of salt, so don't be concerned about that. I recall you stating that you have some other proofs showing that you lived with her, yes? Do you have letters from the neighbors, friends and other family members confirming you lived there?

I would just submit the letter anyways. IRCC is not going to contact her. If you want to get married, then of course, get married.

Hi Canuck. But if we just submit the letter, will we have to explain the situation and current drama regarding bf's mom? I don't want to say more than necessary about things that could cause the officer reviewing our case to focus in on the negative things too much.

And would I need to explain that situation to CIC or just try and not bring up the current drama at all? I know I have to be honest with it, I'm just wondering if this is one of those situations where you say only what you need to, like at the border. If I do include the letter and she tells them that she didn't want us sending it, won't it get us into trouble?

Anyway, I'll stop writing a novel and just see if I get any other advice. Thanks again for all the help, everyone! It definitely helps to have this forum in a situation like this.

 

[epmarshall]

actually i don't think that's what happened. i'm sure the extra proof they took to the interview helped them, but they were specifically told that was the reason. i know i don't have the whole story and i don't think it's always as black and white. it's certainly going to depend on a lot of factors we can't possibly know about. i agree, switching to a married couple application will probably be "easier" for the OP.

Thanks, CDNPR2014. That is the way we're leaning, so I appreciate the advice and thanks for sharing the story you mentioned.

When you mention "Spouse", I assume you mean getting married. Yes, getting married would remove a lot of headaches for you. You do need to prove that relationship is genuine, but US/Canadian couples have a relatively low threshold to meet. And judging from your history together, I'd say that you have little to worry about.

Okay, glad to hear it. Thanks for the advice, keesio!

 

[dana2]

Of course, lying on a solemn declaration IS a cause to get prosecuted. The penalty I think is up to two years in jail - you may want to, kindly, remind your mother-in-law of this fact.

 

[profiler]

Thanks for the reply, Profiler. We are thinking about just using the letter in our application, I mean she did notarize it and all, so if she says it's untrue then it's not really going to fly.

But could doing so without her permission cause us any issues?

I would say no. She did give it to you notarised.

When you affirm something to be true to a notary or a commissioner of oaths, they make you duly aware that you are affirming the statement(s) made are true to the best of your knowledge. That's equivalent to giving testimony in a court. Can she take the testimony away too? The answer is no. And if she did try to change her statement later, that may cause other issues for her... perjury comes to mind.

This is a quick except from Wikipedia (I know -- but it was the first source I could get!):
A sworn declaration (also called a sworn statement or a statement under penalty of perjury) is a document that recites facts pertinent to a legal proceeding. It is very similar to an affidavit, but unlike an affidavit, it is not witnessed and sealed by an official such as a notary public. Instead, the person making the declaration signs a separate endorsement paragraph at the end of the document, stating that the declaration is made under penalty of perjury.

If she gave you the letter, then use it. If she wants to try to change it, then she might be looking at jail time (unlikely, but still a deterrent)...

For your other proofs, I think they seem ok. With a healthy smattering of pictures, I bet you have enough as it stands. Of course that's just my opinion...

 

[canadianwoman]

Evidence:
-Mail/holiday cards from most of the 12 months, but not every single one (including government stuff)
-Travelodge receipt showing both our names from a Niagara Falls trip in Feb. this year
-Notarized letter from bf's mom stating we lived at her house for x months
-Notarized letter from my mom
-Current lease with both names from May 1, 2016 and on
-I've been added to his phone bill account, so my name shows up on there.
-We have a joint bank account (since Feb 2016) under his main account, but haven't used it very much, just for some things.
-CRA common law status printscreen showing change of bf's marital status
-Stat Declaration of common law (we don't have this yet, but we can get it soon enough)

You can use the letter, since she had it notarized. It is unlikely the visa officer would contact her. If she contacts them, then they would look into it, but as the letter is notarized, and you have other proof, it might be enough.

Without the letter you do not have enough evidence for common-law, in my opinion. You have to prove that you lived together for 12 continuous months, and that the relationship is genuine. The hotel receipt helps to show genuineness. The joint account and the phone bill do not cover 12 months. The notarized letter from your mom, and the Statutory Declaration of Common-Law Union are good, but will not be enough by themselves to prove common-law. If you have government mail from each month before you have a shared lease, then that might be enough. If not, it is good extra proof, but not enough.
Honestly, I would just get married. All the evidence you have is good for showing your relationship is genuine, and in the application you should state that you have been living together since the time you moved into his mother's house, but if you are married this then becomes extra proof, not something that is essential.
However, if you decide to go with common-law, and use the mother's letter, you do not have to explain the situation with her. Submitting the notarized letter along with the other evidence of common-law would be fine: she did not lie in the notarized letter, and you do not have to tell the visa officer that your relationship with her has soured (unless asked specifically, of course).