Sponsoring wife (Taiwan) - son recently born during application

[Phot3k]

Hi guys,

I've been trying to get a hold of the Hong Kong consular (where our application is being processed) and the CIC in Mississauga (but they're currently closed will try again in their morning) to ask the following questions.

A few questions that I'm trying to figure out:

1. I'm a naturalized Canadian citizen (2001) and married in 2015 my wife who is Taiwanese.
2. I am currently sponsoring her for permanent residency to Canada, the application process is already under way.
3. However we threw a monkey wrench I guess into the application as we got pregnant and had a son in Taipei just recently (May 25, 2016) while the CIC (the Hong Kong consular I guess) was processing her permanent residency.

After notifying the Hong Kong consular they've asked for some additional documents which appear to make sense:
1. Updated IMM0008 and IM5406.
2. Headshots of the newborn.
3. Newborn's birth certificate.
And a few more if he isn't a citizen (which I'm not sure of)
4. Health examination proof.
5. Passport scans
6. Additional fees

But here's where it gets a little confusing for me and I could use some clarification:

1. Can my son automatically apply as a citizen if his father (me) had him outside of Canada with a non-Canadian citizen (my wife?).
2. If the answer is yes, what are my next steps? The email the HK Consular was pretty vague and just told me to contact them if my son is a Canadian citizen (I asked them if he was and they didn't really answer me).
3. Do I automatically say he is a Canadian citizen on IMM0008?
4. Would he then receive a passport/citizenship card or some sort of travel documents from the HK Consular for entry into Canada when my wife receives her permanent residency?
5. As he was born in Taiwan, his birth certificate only allows for a Chinese name, should I be using this for all the documents (IMM0008/IMM5406)? Ie, Kun Rui instead of Ryan. Even though the hospital can provide an english birth certificate, it's a romanized version of his Chinese name. I'm assuming I would then have to legally change his name once he's in Canada to Ryan?
6. If he can't apply as a citizen, would I then go through the process of getting him a Taiwanese passport? And then on IMM0008 say he's a Taiwanese citizen (which he currently is as he was born in Taipei).

Thanks for any input/help/advice! Sorry for the wall of text but I figure providing as much info as possible would make it easier for anyone reading to understand.

 

[canadianwoman]

Your son is a Canadian citizen because you, his father, are a Canadian citizen, even though he was born outside of Canada. The CIC website has more information here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp

You have to apply for his citizenship certificate, and then for a Canadian passport. You can change his name once he is in Canada if you want.

 

[Phot3k]

Thanks for the reply!

I actually did use that website, glad to hear he can apply as a Canadian citizen which makes sense from a common sense point of view.

As his father/parent, I didn't become a citizen until 2001. I might be reading those two requirements incorrectly however. Therefore I assumed he was not eligible to apply directly for Canadian citizenship due to the first generation requirements.

However I just did a search again and according to another page on the CIC site, it answers it quite clearly, thank you once again!

I am Canadian. My children were born outside Canada. Are they Canadian?

My children were born on or after April 17, 2009

Your children will only be Canadian at birth if you:

were born in Canada, or
became a naturalized Canadian citizen before they were born. (If you were adopted, see the exception below.)
There are exceptions to these rules.

 

[cheng9999]

Thanks for the reply!

I actually did use that website, glad to hear he can apply as a Canadian citizen which makes sense from a common sense point of view.

As his father/parent, I didn't become a citizen until 2001. I might be reading those two requirements incorrectly however. Therefore I assumed he was not eligible to apply directly for Canadian citizenship due to the first generation requirements.

However I just did a search again and according to another page on the CIC site, it answers it quite clearly, thank you once again!

I don't know if things have changed now that a lot of the consular functions are done in HKVO rather than Taipei. Changed in the sense whether you do this in Taipei or send the package directly to HKVO. I applied for both my sons' citizenship at Taipei consulate a few years ago. Anyway, your son is Canadian citizen by current rules, but you would need to apply for the certificate and passport. This is not automatic in the sense that if you don't do it, no one will send him a citizenship card, and he will need citizenship card to get his passport (also the English copy of household registrar...see later).

If that's a done deal, then your wife's application should be simple. She is still the principle applicant with no dependents under the PR application. Of course she would have dependent (your son) when she fills out family information. But it is not as your son has not applied and completed the process yet. Looks like VO is already asking you to redo those forms. It also appears that the VO is also asking for the information of your son as he is not yet a citizen in the sense that CIC has all the supporting documents, supporting documents which would be available if you already gone through with the application for your son. By the way, make sure you (or your wife she is the household head) gets the English household register which would now include your son on it. In addition to his birth certificate (even if it's in English and certified by the Taiwanese court), you will need the household register...the logic is that the birth cert is not gov't issued even if it's certified by the court to be an authentic document. The household registrar will have his name, and both parents identity. Just so that you won't be missing a document and get sent back for it.

Here's what we did for English names. Both our our kids have additional English name (John, Peter, etc.) in addition to romanized Chinese name into English characters on the English copy of birth cert (the one issued by the hospital). When I applied for Canadian citizenship card, I only filled in the English name without the Chinese romanized name. I wanted their Canadian documents to be nice and simple.

The English copy of household register, basically you just tell them what to put down in English, so you can add "Ryan" to it. This way, your son will have Ryan on the citizenship certificate, and subsequently his passport. You won't want to go through the trouble later on to change his name again.

Back to your wife's application. What you should do is get your son's application ASAP. You will get a receipt for the application. Then you fill our your son's citizenship as Canadian. For supporting document, you include photocopy of the receipt showing application is in process, plus a written letter to explain.

If you put him down as non-Canadian, first it is actually not true because he is Canadian. Then is he accompanying or non-accompanying, he needs medical, etc. Maybe HKVO has seen a lot of these cases, and can sort this out, maybe not. I would not confuse things further.

 

[Phot3k]

Thanks for the comprehensive information.

I was also hoping for a lot of the processing to be done in Taipei (as I was positive there was some sort of consular services here in Taiwan for Canadians) but it looks like they've consolidated everything to Hong Kong.

Oddly, when I informed the CIC of my son's impending birth they mentioned this bit:

f you are intending on submitting an application for Canadian passport or citizenship for your new born baby to be, you should contact the Consular Section (provides services to Canadian citizens) of the Consulate General of Canada in Hong Kong directly. Please consult the Contact the Consular Sectionwebpage for details.

Seems like they want me to engage the HKVO directly instead of just applying for citizenship for my son. I'm going to try in the morning to see what that's all about. Otherwise, as you said I would like to start the citizenship application process (now that I know he's eligible) immediately.

Also good to know about not listing him as a dependant on the general application form (IMM0008), I included him there and on the additional family information form (IMM5406) that the HKVO wanted updated copies of. I'll also confirm with the HKVO that's the case (if I can get a hold of a person).

Good idea about getting an english copy of the household register. I believe we have that updated already with his name and parents name so we'll head out and get an english copy.

That's good to hear the hospital was willing to provide an English birth certificate with english names on it; if they can I can see using his english name on the application forms no problem.

 

[cheng9999]

Thanks for the comprehensive information.

I was also hoping for a lot of the processing to be done in Taipei (as I was positive there was some sort of consular services here in Taiwan for Canadians) but it looks like they've consolidated everything to Hong Kong.

Oddly, when I informed the CIC of my son's impending birth they mentioned this bit:


Seems like they want me to engage the HKVO directly instead of just applying for citizenship for my son. I'm going to try in the morning to see what that's all about. Otherwise, as you said I would like to start the citizenship application process (now that I know he's eligible) immediately.

Also good to know about not listing him as a dependant on the general application form (IMM0008), I included him there and on the additional family information form (IMM5406) that the HKVO wanted updated copies of. I'll also confirm with the HKVO that's the case (if I can get a hold of a person).

Good idea about getting an english copy of the household register. I believe we have that updated already with his name and parents name so we'll head out and get an english copy.

That's good to hear the hospital was willing to provide an English birth certificate with english names on it; if they can I can see using his english name on the application forms no problem.

I wasn't sure if everything was consolidated into HKVO, including newborn citizenship. Anyway, you should download the package, fill in all the forms, gather all the documents (your own passport, citizenship cert, your wife's passport, your marriage cert, household register, birth cert of your son, etc.) and submit...many of these you already did for your wife's application, so you should have most of them handy.

When this was done in Taipei, it must be done in person. I am not sure how it works now with it moved to HK. My guess is that you send them in, and hope you do not get called in. For example, for passport application (which I did last year in HKVO, it was much easier if all of us showed up...I am not sure what the VO would do if my wife or the kids did not show their faces.

At least the hospital for both our sons (same one) had no problems with English birth cert at all, as it was not part of the system. They said that they can put whatever you want, but it cannot be changed once they put it in. On the other hand, I could not get them to put in the Chinese name on the Chinese version for my 2nd boy. I wanted this primary document (even if it's not gov't issued) to have the name on it instead of "first born" and "second born". My oldest had no problems, but the 2nd one had a problem. The Chinese birth cert would not generate with his name on it, as the hospital changed their computer system. In the end, after struggling with them for almost 1 full day, I asked them to write it by hand, and then for the receptionist to put her stamp on it. Some places may not understand what household register is, and I wanted to make sure the birth certificate has complete information on it.

Good luck getting someone from HKVO on the phone to answer any questions regarding immigration...you just cannot navigate to such a menu option to talk to a real person. If you use email or case specific inquiry, you MAY get a response after 3-4 weeks. It's very obvious right now what you need to do, so you should just go ahead and do it.
* apply for your son
* update the forms requested by HKVO
* put in an explanation/clarification letter to explain in case they get confused

In your case, say your wife got COPR and you are all ready to make the move, but your son's application is not completed yet. I am not sure if your son can go with his Taiwan passport as it's visa exempt. In the old days, the Taipei VO told us explicitly that the kids should not travel to Canada on their Taiwan passports, and must wait until the citizenship applications are completed. To expedite, we were told to apply for passport along with the citizenship as a special request (back then, those 2 things are normally done separately...I understand that nowadays, both are processed at the same time if you also need passport). As I said though, this was the old days when Taipei VO was doing this work.

 

[Phot3k]

I'm intrigued that the HKVO office wants me to contact them directly, and as you said (as I've tried contacting them before) it's incredibly difficult getting anybody on the phone to speak to in person about my application. If everything lines up nicely I suppose (assuming here) that they want me to apply for my son's citizenship and passport in one go with them as well to streamline the sponsorship of my wife.

If I go strictly through the CIC website, it does appear I should be applying for my son's citizenship via the Canadian consular in Taiwan. What I guess I'll do is like you said, gather all the materials (I'm actually visiting the hospital tomorrow for a checkup on my son so I'll be getting his birth certificate at the same time), and call both first the HKVO, then consular in Taipei.

I'm hoping like you said, to make things go quicker, I can handle things in person in Taipei in one shot as everyone is physically here while HKVO processes my wife's permanent residency sponsorship.

 

[canadianwoman]

He still has to be listed on the Additional Family Information form, IMM 5406.

 

[Phot3k]

Thank you for the reminder!

Yes, I will be including the newborn on the IMM5406 (additional family information) to resend to HK immigration as part of my spouse's application which now needs to include some additional info now that we have a child.

Also after calling both the HK Consular and Taipei Consular; it's clearer to me as to why the HK Immigration email contacted me about getting in touch with them about applying for citizenship and it's a rather simple explanation. They're unaware of where I currently am, so in all likelihood they would also have suggested that I apply for citizenship/passport in Taipei as cheng9999 mentioned.

I will be collecting the materials (still waiting on his birth certificate but it looks like I can get both his english and romanized chinese all on the same document after dropping by the hospital today) and then physically applying at the Taipei consular before I have to leave for Canada.

Also, the operator I spoke to when I called HK consular confirmed there is no one who would be able to speak to me regarding HK immigration with any number so. They aren't setup in that manner....

 

[cheng9999]

Thank you for the reminder!

Yes, I will be including the newborn on the IMM5406 (additional family information) to resend to HK immigration as part of my spouse's application which now needs to include some additional info now that we have a child.

Also after calling both the HK Consular and Taipei Consular; it's clearer to me as to why the HK Immigration email contacted me about getting in touch with them about applying for citizenship and it's a rather simple explanation. They're unaware of where I currently am, so in all likelihood they would also have suggested that I apply for citizenship/passport in Taipei as cheng9999 mentioned.

I will be collecting the materials (still waiting on his birth certificate but it looks like I can get both his english and romanized chinese all on the same document after dropping by the hospital today) and then physically applying at the Taipei consular before I have to leave for Canada.

Also, the operator I spoke to when I called HK consular confirmed there is no one who would be able to speak to me regarding HK immigration with any number so. They aren't setup in that manner....

Good to know that Taipei VO still handles newborn citizenship cases. Other folks from Taiwan would find this information useful should they be in a similar situation.

And it looks like HKVO has been quite responsible and diligent in trying to get hold of you...there are still good professional people trying to do a good job.

If you are not living in Taipei where there are more photographers to choose from, the biggest problem has been getting "good" photos done. CIC is quite picky on the quality. On our 2nd son's case, I had to redo the photos as the photographer we usually go to was not open. The VO said that the photos are of too low a resolution. It's not just wasting the money, but also time. Luckily, we can mail it instead of showing up in person again.

 

[Phot3k]

Yes, fortunately both locations when I spoke to them over the phone (HK and Taipei) were quite helpful when I was asking.

The Consular in Taipei recommended I drop by in person to apply for my son's citizenship. Now it's mostly waiting for his English birth certificate that I just applied for today so I hope it arrives soon.

Good point about the photographs, I'll be careful with resolution and that they follow the guidelines.

One more decision remains is where to apply for my son's passport as I'm returning to Canada in a few weeks while my wife stays with him in Taipei. I'm thinking I have the option of allowing my wife to apply for him (once we get his citizenship card) in Taipei at the Consular, but I would have to prepare a photo to act as his guarantor and sign the forms as both parents need to participate. It doesn't really work if I apply for him in Taipei as we don't have any other family members here who are Canadian citizens who can act as his guarantor and the applicant can't act as one.

Alternatively, I'm thinking it might be possible to apply for him while I'm back in Canada, as I do have relatives here than can act as a guarantor. I would then bring the passport with me when I travel again to Taipei to bring him back to Canada along with my wife. I was hoping to ask the Consular a bit about this when I'm over there applying for his citizenship.

As we don't plan on travelling until my son is at least 6 months old, the consular was confident they could first process the citizenship and then passport in Taipei.

 

[cheng9999]

Yes, fortunately both locations when I spoke to them over the phone (HK and Taipei) were quite helpful when I was asking.

The Consular in Taipei recommended I drop by in person to apply for my son's citizenship. Now it's mostly waiting for his English birth certificate that I just applied for today so I hope it arrives soon.

Good point about the photographs, I'll be careful with resolution and that they follow the guidelines.

One more decision remains is where to apply for my son's passport as I'm returning to Canada in a few weeks while my wife stays with him in Taipei. I'm thinking I have the option of allowing my wife to apply for him (once we get his citizenship card) in Taipei at the Consular, but I would have to prepare a photo to act as his guarantor and sign the forms as both parents need to participate. It doesn't really work if I apply for him in Taipei as we don't have any other family members here who are Canadian citizens who can act as his guarantor and the applicant can't act as one.

Alternatively, I'm thinking it might be possible to apply for him while I'm back in Canada, as I do have relatives here than can act as a guarantor. I would then bring the passport with me when I travel again to Taipei to bring him back to Canada along with my wife. I was hoping to ask the Consular a bit about this when I'm over there applying for his citizenship.

As we don't plan on travelling until my son is at least 6 months old, the consular was confident they could first process the citizenship and then passport in Taipei.

Suggest that you ask if you can apply in Canada, because:
1) both parents have to sign, and since your wife will not be physically there, passport office will need to contact her personally. If both parents show up at the passport office, then there's no need for the visa office to call the other spouse
2) not sure if the passport office has to see your son in person (I have always brought my sons with me to the passport office)...you should confirm if this is a requirement. Somehow, I always thought that the passport office has to see the actual passport holder once, either when applying or when picking up the passport, but I am not sure if this applies to a minor.

So if the application is in Taiwan, your wife can be the applicant parent and you can be the guarantor as you said. I was told that this is possible when I applied for the passport in HK office (not Taipei office, as we happened to be in HK). I was surprised, and asked "is this possible?", the applying parent must be the Canadian parent? I was told that this way, we don't need another guarantor. As you said, if you sign the photos, sign the forms, and fill in your contact details in Canada, then it should work.

If you or your wife knows someone in Taiwan who is Canadian citizen (just a friend is fine, not necessarily a relative) whom you've known for more than 2 years, he/she can act as guarantor as well.

 

[Phot3k]

One new question;

When applying for my newborn son's citizenship; the difficulty I'm finding is what I can use for two pieces of identification. As he's a newborn there isn't much I have yet. Especially if one requires his photo to be present.

What kind of ID did you use when applying for your children?

I'm hoping to use his Taiwanese passport (when we get it) as it will have his photograph, and his English household registration which are more papers than just IDs/cards so Im not sure if that can be used.

My newborn has a health card but it's in Chinese and has no photo (yet). He obviously won't have a driver's license and in Taiwan they don't give citizenship cards to people until they're 14?