Solving a document translation mystery

[Pawshi]

Dear Seniors, Raj, Stanlee, Legal Flacon, Del Piero, Deepcur et al.,

I would like you guys to deliberate on this paragraph written by IRCC/CIC. The link is -

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/perm/express/intake-complete.asp

The heading is Translation of documents

If a supporting document is in a language other than English or French, the applicant must provide IRCC with a copy of the original document as well as a version translated by a certified translator.

If a supporting document is in a language other than English or French, the applicant must provide IRCC with:

• the English or French translation; and
• an affidavit from the person who completed the translations; and
• a certified photocopy of the original document.

The questions are - why there are two statements?
The first statement says - copy of original and version translated by a certified translator. Who is certified translator? It is answered on the glossary web page. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/glossary.asp#certified_translator

Certified translator
A member in good standing of a provincial or territorial organization of translators and interpreters in Canada.

So first statement is related to if the document is translated using a certified translator in Canada. Then copy of original document and translated version are needed.

However, if the translation is not done in Canada....then...the second statement...where an individual needs to give

• the English or French translation; and
• an affidavit from the person who completed the translations; and
• a certified photocopy of the original document.

Please let me know your thoughts/views....

Thank you!

 

[picklee]

Dear Seniors, Raj, Stanlee, Legal Flacon, Del Piero, Deepcur et al.,

I would like you guys to deliberate on this paragraph written by IRCC/CIC. The link is -

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/perm/express/intake-complete.asp

The heading is Translation of documents

If a supporting document is in a language other than English or French, the applicant must provide IRCC with a copy of the original document as well as a version translated by a certified translator.

If a supporting document is in a language other than English or French, the applicant must provide IRCC with:

• 
  
  
  • the English or French translation; and
  • an affidavit from the person who completed the translations; and
  • a certified photocopy of the original document.

The questions are - why there are two statements?
The first statement says - copy of original and version translated by a certified translator. Who is certified translator? It is answered on the glossary web page. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/glossary.asp#certified_translator

Certified translator
A member in good standing of a provincial or territorial organization of translators and interpreters in Canada.

So first statement is related to if the document is translated using a certified translator in Canada. Then copy of original document and translated version are needed.

However, if the translation is not done in Canada....then...the second statement...where an individual needs to give

• the English or French translation; and
• an affidavit from the person who completed the translations; and
• a certified photocopy of the original document.

Please let me know your thoughts/views....

Thank you!

Not sure the fine distinction here. Both statements are the same, in that if the document is not in French or English, then you need to provide those three items.

 

[Pawshi]

Not sure the fine distinction here. Both statements are the same, in that if the document is not in French or English, then you need to provide those three items.

Yes, But do we need to provide the copy of the original document as in first statement? In that case, it becomes four documents -

• the English or French translation; and
• an affidavit from the person who completed the translations; and
• a certified photocopy of the original document.
• a copy of the original document

Why didn't they write the same?

You are absolutely right that there is a very fine distinction, but can that lead to application rejection. I am concerned because, i am into this case. Where I provided the first three documents at the time of application submission. Since, the requirement is not clear, I have provided the copy of the original document through CSE. In a dilemma if they would consider my case or not?

 

[picklee]

Yes, But do we need to provide the copy of the original document as in first statement? In that case, it becomes four documents -

• the English or French translation; and
• an affidavit from the person who completed the translations; and
• a certified photocopy of the original document.
• a copy of the original document

Why didn't they write the same?

You are absolutely right that there is a very fine distinction, but can that lead to application rejection. I am concerned because, i am into this case. Where I provided the first three documents at the time of application submission. Since, the requirement is not clear, I have provided the copy of the original document through CSE. In a dilemma if they would consider my case or not?

The third bullet point is a copy of the original document:

• a certified photocopy of the original document.

There are only 3 total documents: certified copy of the original; the translation; and the affidavit of the translator.

 

[Pawshi]

The third bullet point is a copy of the original document:



There are only 3 total documents: certified copy of the original; the translation; and the affidavit of the translator.

Could you please read this thread and the possible reason for the rejection?

http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/urgent-need-my-case-has-been-cancelled-due-to-absurd-reasons.491841/page-11#post-6086056

 

[picklee]

Yes I was just reading that. This post gives a good reason for submitting 4 documents:

http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/urgent-need-my-case-has-been-cancelled-due-to-absurd-reasons.491841/page-9#post-607738

However, submitting both your copy of the original and the certified copy of the original would be redundant. The VO can simply look at the certified copy to know what document is being translated and verify the authenticity of the document at the same time.

Why would the VO need to compare your submitted copy with the certified copy?
Am I missing something here?

 

[21Goose]

A certified translator is licensed by CTTIC. http://www.cttic.org/certification.asp

CIC can look up the translator here -> http://www.cttic.org/chercher.asp

So, if you are submitting a document translated by a certified translator, CIC knows that they can easily verify that the translator exists and didn't fake anything. It's possible that certified translators are required to keep a copy of any document they translate in case they need to verify that later (I'm speculating about this, maybe someone who's used a certified translator can confirm).

CIC knows that Certified Translators are held to a high standard, are accountable for any errors, and could lose their license in case of any shenanigans.

If, however, you're getting it translated outside Canada, there's not much CIC can do to verify the quality of the translator. Let's say you went to a translator in a very small country which doesn't have a licensing board for translators. In this case, CIC asks for the copy that you upload, as well as a copy that the translator signs as a way to make sure you're not pulling a fast one. The affidavit helps as well - the translator is putting his name on record, saying he faithfully translated a document. If it turns out he didn't, CIC can (and probably does) reject any future translations by that person/agency.

That's my reading, anyway. Also, if I was submitting translated documents that were translated by someone outside Canada, I would totally upload the 4 documents I mentioned. I mean, what's the harm if you submit one redundant document - your application will not be rejected for that. On the other hand, if you upload three and they need four.. they're going to reject your application, as has happened to many people.

So, in summary, why take a chance when it's so very simple to upload 4 documents?

 

[21Goose]

Yes I was just reading that. This post gives a good reason for submitting 4 documents:

http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/urgent-need-my-case-has-been-cancelled-due-to-absurd-reasons.491841/page-9#post-607738

However, submitting both your copy of the original and the certified copy of the original would be redundant. The VO can simply look at the certified copy to know what document is being translated and verify the authenticity of the document at the same time.

Why would the VO need to compare your submitted copy with the certified copy?
Am I missing something here?

I gave an example in my post on that thread. How does CIC know what document you showed the translator?

 

[picklee]

I gave an example in my post on that thread. How does CIC know what document you showed the translator?

It was your post that I was referring to. IRCC knows the document you showed the translator because you are enclosing the certified copy by the translator. I don't see why you also need to submit another copy of the document.

I also agree with you that there is no harm in submiting the 4 docs. Just curious about the thought process.

 

[DEEPCUR]

Hi, I have no experience with document translation, but I can certainly say that original document scans are must in any case.

You have done the right thing by sending cse. Cse s are taking around 6 weeks to reach your file. And it takes a minimum of 60 to 65 days for someone to start looking in to your file from eapr date. If your timelines work with this boundary, you should be good.

 

[Pawshi]

A certified translator is licensed by CTTIC. http://www.cttic.org/certification.asp

CIC can look up the translator here -> http://www.cttic.org/chercher.asp

So, if you are submitting a document translated by a certified translator, CIC knows that they can easily verify that the translator exists and didn't fake anything. It's possible that certified translators are required to keep a copy of any document they translate in case they need to verify that later (I'm speculating about this, maybe someone who's used a certified translator can confirm).

CIC knows that Certified Translators are held to a high standard, are accountable for any errors, and could lose their license in case of any shenanigans.

If, however, you're getting it translated outside Canada, there's not much CIC can do to verify the quality of the translator. Let's say you went to a translator in a very small country which doesn't have a licensing board for translators. In this case, CIC asks for the copy that you upload, as well as a copy that the translator signs as a way to make sure you're not pulling a fast one. The affidavit helps as well - the translator is putting his name on record, saying he faithfully translated a document. If it turns out he didn't, CIC can (and probably does) reject any future translations by that person/agency.

That's my reading, anyway. Also, if I was submitting translated documents that were translated by someone outside Canada, I would totally upload the 4 documents I mentioned. I mean, what's the harm if you submit one redundant document - your application will not be rejected for that. On the other hand, if you upload three and they need four.. they're going to reject your application, as has happened to many people.

So, in summary, why take a chance when it's so very simple to upload 4 documents?

Agreed. But, I already submitted three documents in accordance with the site. I didnt submit the copy of the original document. However, after reading the other thread, I provided the copy of original document through CSE. Now, I am in a situation of guessing.....will they accept my CSE or will they reject? I did what was mentioned on the site......though paying the price of this confusion.....

Is there a way, I can write to IRCC to simplify the statement around this for better and easy understanding for future applicants? I would definitely take it to the logical closure.

Thank you!

 

[Pawshi]

There are few posts which provides the good glimpse of the process after e-APR. Like R10, R11.2, criminality check etc. Somehow, I am not able find those. Could any of you share the same?

I would also like to understand, at what stage they can reject my application taking a shadow of non availability of copy of original document? Is it at R10 or R 11.2?

Thank you!

 

[21Goose]

Agreed. But, I already submitted three documents in accordance with the site. I didnt submit the copy of the original document. However, after reading the other thread, I provided the copy of original document through CSE. Now, I am in a situation of guessing.....will they accept my CSE or will they reject? I did what was mentioned on the site......though paying the price of this confusion.....

Is there a way, I can write to IRCC to simplify the statement around this for better and easy understanding for future applicants? I would definitely take it to the logical closure.

Thank you!

Submitting it via CSE should be enough. I've read many posts of people forgetting to submit something and then using a CSE to correct the error, and it mostly seems to work out OK. I used the CSE route myself to update a bank statement (I couldn't show six months of history on my first one as I'd recently moved to a new bank. Two months after my AOR I provided them with an updated letter with six months of history - I don't know if that was needed or not, but I have my COPR and Passport, so it didn't hurt)

Try not to worry. You have made a good faith effort to correct an error that may not even be an error. There's nothing more you can do here, so relax and trust IRCC to do their job.

Regarding contacting IRCC - they have a button at the bottom of the page that lets you report a problem or a mistake. I suppose you could try using that.

 

[21Goose]

It was your post that I was referring to. IRCC knows the document you showed the translator because you are enclosing the certified copy by the translator. I don't see why you also need to submit another copy of the document.

I also agree with you that there is no harm in submiting the 4 docs. Just curious about the thought process.

It all boils down to how CIC defines "certified".

If they define certified as - "I am certifying that this is an authentic document, and I have translated this to the best of my ability", then you don't need an original. In this case, the onus is on the translator - if an error is found, he's on the hook as he certified it was authentic and correctly translated. You can plead that you were not responsible for his mistake in accepting a fake one as the real thing.

If they define certified as - "I am certifying that I translated this document to the best of my ability, but I have no idea whether this is authentic or not as I am just a translator", then you need the original so that CIC can compare the certifed copy to the copy you provided. The onus shifts to you, and you are on the hook for uploading the wrong document, and therefore you can be rejected/banned/etc. The translator is only responsible for translating, and if there's a error in the translation, perhaps CIC will give you the chance to correct that error.

Again, I have no special knowledge of how CIC operates. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and I know that I would take no chances for something that is this important

 

[Pawshi]

I used this guy for the translation in Delhi.

http://anantranslations.com/services/translation/certified-translation/

The affidavit by the translator is -

I, XXXXX, fluent in Hindi and English languages, a professional, experienced and native Hindi translator, on behalf of Anan Translations, do solemnly and sincerely declare that the Hindi to English translation affixed to this Affidavit, to the best of my knowledge and belief, is true and accurate version of the original text and document that best reflects the intention and meaning of the original text.

Verified and Signed by the translator company. Notarized stamps from notary public.