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Social life in Canada vs USA

on-hold

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Feb 6, 2010
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beholder69 said:
Hey, I've always spelled it "zed", I feel Canadian already ;D

I know, isn't it great! I fit in like a Molson's-drinking, rink-renting lunk from Barrie!


As for you, kingkong1, I don't have a 'Thai' wife, I have a wife that I love! That's the kind of thing that happens when you spend a decade living in Asia, and it makes it hard to restart your career if you come back to North America; it would be pretty stupid of me to want to do it differently, since that would mean I wouldn't have my family, which is more important to me than climbing some idiot corporate ladder. We're doing fine in Edmonton, where I haven't seen a hint of white supremacy, and where my kid blends in just fine with all the immigrants, First Nation citizens, and white folk. It's a nice city, and my wife likes it too. If things don't work out here, we'll go back and live in Thailand where we have a house and family.

And your imbecilic suggestion that the University of Toronto, a top-20 university in the world, was a waste compared to an 'American' school is, frankly, risible to the point that it casts everything you say in doubt . . . Are you seriously suggesting that if I'd gone to the University of Kansas or one of the million other awful institutions I'd be living on easy street now? 'Making connections' is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, you must be a business student -- maybe I didn't 'make connections', I just got a first-rate education that got me into grad school in one of the top three programs in the world, with a full ride for free. In the U.S., incidentally.
 

beholder69

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Oct 9, 2011
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on-hold said:
I know, isn't it great! I fit in like a Molson's-drinking, rink-renting lunk from Barrie!


As for you, kingkong1, I don't have a 'Thai' wife, I have a wife that I love! That's the kind of thing that happens when you spend a decade living in Asia, and it makes it hard to restart your career if you come back to North America; it would be pretty stupid of me to want to do it differently, since that would mean I wouldn't have my family, which is more important to me than climbing some idiot corporate ladder. We're doing fine in Edmonton, where I haven't seen a hint of white supremacy, and where my kid blends in just fine with all the immigrants, First Nation citizens, and white folk. It's a nice city, and my wife likes it too. If things don't work out here, we'll go back and live in Thailand where we have a house and family.

And your imbecilic suggestion that the University of Toronto, a top-20 university in the world, was a waste compared to an 'American' school is, frankly, risible to the point that it casts everything you say in doubt . . . Are you seriously suggesting that if I'd gone to the University of Kansas or one of the million other awful institutions I'd be living on easy street now? 'Making connections' is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, you must be a business student -- maybe I didn't 'make connections', I just got a first-rate education that got me into grad school in one of the top three programs in the world, with a full ride for free. In the U.S., incidentally.
Well put ;)
 

on-hold

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kingkong1 said:
If you had your head screwed on right, you probably would have stayed in the US and gone to a US school. College is all about making connections these days, and you missed the boat. Now decades later, see where you stand, without a steady job and with a kid and a Thai wife. By the way I wouldn't raise a bi-racial kid in Edmonton, Alberta, the hotbed of white supremacist activity, where biracial kids might have a traumatic experience.

Speaking of Canada's top universities, I'm not impressed. They are overrated just like Canada as a nation is. It's a well-known fact that they struggle with recruiting bright young American students, because smart American kids know they'll be treated like foreigners even with Canadian education, and most of all because they know there are no jobs in Canada. Canada is all about sales and factory assembly jobs, that is, minimum wage jobs. So education-wise it's been one way traffic and it'll remain that way.

I was so irritated by your condescending, racist first paragraph, I completely missed the second! My apologies. It's actually a very Canadian paragraph, from the strain of Canada that feels inferior unless it is approved of by the United States. Even if it were true (which it's not), there's no reason why an excellent Canadian university should recruit bright young American students -- is there any reason why a bright young American is better than a bright young Korean or Indian or Chinese student? Canada is perfectly large enough to support two or three excellent universities (e.g. Michigan, Wisconsin, California), and students come from around the world to attend them. If you study law, then you can't go to the States and practice, obviously; if you study business, the the connections you seem so fond of won't apply; but if you study any of a hundred academic disciplines, no one in the U.S. cares. I went from U of T to one of the top 10 schools in the States, and no one batted an eye; I met students there from around the world. Educational systems are so integrated between the States and Canada that many schools are accredited by the same commissions.
 

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on-hold said:
Both of you are wrong, you paranoiacs -- I was born in Kansas, raised in Oregon, my family is German-American, I went to the University of Toronto and I can move through Canada like a Punjabi through Surrey. The process of 'becoming' a Canadian is so lacking in fundamental change for me that I've sometimes wondered if it's a lie to tell people that I 'am' Canadian, since doing so basically requires me to start saying 'zed' instead of 'z' when spelling words. If I don't volunteer the information no one knows, it's actually a bit of a problem.

I just use crikey as an affectation, it takes the sting out of my harsh criticisms. It should be obvious that I have no connection to England, since no Englishperson would be caught dead using crikey these days, it's a hundred years out of date. Literate Americans use words like that to let everyone know they've read Oliver Twist.
I heart "like a Punjabi through Surrey".

You're right, the English don't really use "crikey" anymore. Hence, I thought maybe Hong Kong...I've sometimes found the Hongers more British than the Brits.
 

kingkong1

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May 18, 2013
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on-hold said:
I know, isn't it great! I fit in like a Molson's-drinking, rink-renting lunk from Barrie!


As for you, kingkong1, I don't have a 'Thai' wife, I have a wife that I love! That's the kind of thing that happens when you spend a decade living in Asia, and it makes it hard to restart your career if you come back to North America; it would be pretty stupid of me to want to do it differently, since that would mean I wouldn't have my family, which is more important to me than climbing some idiot corporate ladder. We're doing fine in Edmonton, where I haven't seen a hint of white supremacy, and where my kid blends in just fine with all the immigrants, First Nation citizens, and white folk. It's a nice city, and my wife likes it too. If things don't work out here, we'll go back and live in Thailand where we have a house and family.

And your imbecilic suggestion that the University of Toronto, a top-20 university in the world, was a waste compared to an 'American' school is, frankly, risible to the point that it casts everything you say in doubt . . . Are you seriously suggesting that if I'd gone to the University of Kansas or one of the million other awful institutions I'd be living on easy street now? 'Making connections' is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, you must be a business student -- maybe I didn't 'make connections', I just got a first-rate education that got me into grad school in one of the top three programs in the world, with a full ride for free. In the U.S., incidentally.
I'm just laughing at people who quote some bogus world university rankings to validate the prestige of their alma mater. Typically Canadian! Canadians who suffer from a perennial inferiority complex towards its neighbor are obsessed with all these bogus rankings that put Canada as one of the best places to live in the world.

In recent decades the main focus of major universities in the US moved from undergraduate education to graduate education, which is where money is generated by its research, that is, this is where top universities get money from major corporations. Star professors at major research institutions don't teach undergraduates anymore in the US. In contrast, the main focus of Canada's top universities, Toronto, McGill, and UBC is undergraduate education. Have you ever asked yourself why there's no ranking of Canadian graduate programs, because most talented Canadians go to the US for graduate study.

I, like many other academics with a sound mind, am skeptical about these annual world university rankings. It's more like a publicity stunt showing the world the supremacy of universities in the anglophone world. These rankings are really stupid but they get plenty of attention, especially from Asians who live in a very hierarchical society and also happen to suffer from an inferiority complex towards the West, just like Canadians do towards the US. Wealthy Asians are often obsessed with the prestige and reputation these bogus rankings provide to a foreign university. Just laughable!

It just baffles me how we can evaluate universities across the national and language barriers when universities are so tied to their own national economy. I pay attention to the US News rankings of US universities and get an idea of which ones are top 20 or 40 universities in the US. That's about it.

There's no objective way to measure undergraduate education, and I don't think it's not the right way to evaluate universities nowadays. You say U of Toronto is a top twenty university quoting some bogus ranking from the UK which often tends to rank universities in the commonwealth high over German and French universities probably due to its colonial ties. So it's biased and looks ridiculous at times, but people like you who suffer from some kind of inferiority complex buy into it.

It's interesting to hear you mention University of Kansas. You probably thought that you would be able to get into a university like Kansas in the US but realized you could do much better in Canada, whose top universities are sort of obsessed with recruiting US students who don't really give a sh-t about Canada and its universities. You managed to get into Canada's top university. There are many people like you from the US. I heard some of the people I met at U of Toronto say the students from the US are the worst in terms of talent and student quality but they admit them because Canada's top universities are so eager to recruit US students as they are somewhat embarrassed by a mass exodus of Canadian talents to the US. He added Canada's top universities always end up getting the raw end of the deal.

You see what I am getting at. I'll say this, US students who can get into a university of U of Kansas can get into U of Toronto. And I won't place University of Toronto in the top 40 universities in the US, considering the quality of both undergraduate and graduate education of a university. I think it's better than U of Kansas, but below U of Michigan or U of Wisconsin. It's probably on the same level as public universities like U of Minnesota or U of Illinois. McGill is even worse than that, as it's mostly an undergraduate institution.

After seeing public universities in the US like these Big 10 or Big 12 ones, you come to see these top Canadian universities, and you just can tell they don't have the money to compete with even US public schools. Many of the Canadian universities have the size of a community college in the US, but they call it a university here. LOL. I mistook some of them as a high school campus. All these show the overall poverty of Canadian institutions.
 

kingkong1

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May 18, 2013
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on-hold said:
I was so irritated by your condescending, racist first paragraph, I completely missed the second! My apologies. It's actually a very Canadian paragraph, from the strain of Canada that feels inferior unless it is approved of by the United States. Even if it were true (which it's not), there's no reason why an excellent Canadian university should recruit bright young American students -- is there any reason why a bright young American is better than a bright young Korean or Indian or Chinese student? Canada is perfectly large enough to support two or three excellent universities (e.g. Michigan, Wisconsin, California), and students come from around the world to attend them. If you study law, then you can't go to the States and practice, obviously; if you study business, the the connections you seem so fond of won't apply; but if you study any of a hundred academic disciplines, no one in the U.S. cares. I went from U of T to one of the top 10 schools in the States, and no one batted an eye; I met students there from around the world. Educational systems are so integrated between the States and Canada that many schools are accredited by the same commissions.
When has it become racist to call a Thai a Thai? And what the f--k do I care whether your Thai wife owns a house in Thailand? LOL. So you went from the U of Toronto to Duke? A top ten school? By the way it's pointless to go to graduate school unless you get a PhD or JD/MBA or other professional degrees that help you to get a job and make money.

A general advice given to kids who go to teach ESL in Asia is get out before it's too late, that is, long enough to pay your student loan back and satisfy your yellow fever. If you are stuck in Asia forever and try to come back home with an Asian wife after a decade or two, it's like serving a long prison sentence. You are out of touch with the real world. Teaching ESL is like a Mcjob.
 

steaky

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kingkong1 said:
When has it become racist to call a Thai a Thai? And what the f--k do I care whether your Thai wife owns a house in Thailand? LOL. So you went from the U of Toronto to Duke? A top ten school? By the way it's pointless to go to graduate school unless you get a PhD or JD/MBA or other professional degrees that help you to get a job and make money.
So why do you care if I am a desi or chinese citizen. I am Canadian. Period. :)
 

kingkong1

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margobear96 said:
I've never lived in TX, but suspected as much. It seemed odd that most of the (white Texans) at my professional school (in CA) went to undergrad in Texas and was going back after graduation. Even the "liberal" ones -- though they seemed to have a hard on for Austin...not so much Dallas or Houston. On the other hand, Chinese-Texans are pretty cool, and the ones I know try to get out at the first opportunity.

The one and only time I heard a person in real life say "crikey" -- it was an English public school boy. (Public in the UK sense -- i.e., private.) I hypothesize that on-hold is a Anglo American -- UK citizen (maybe HK?), moved to US as a teen or adult (hence the "crikey"), and naturalized in the US. :)
I know these types who get degrees from schools on the West or East Coast and then go back home. They may pretend to look liberal in California, and once in their home States, they'll show their true colors. The South too went through its own version of internationalization, and they don't want to look like they are just a bunch of in-breeding rednecks: "Chinese, Korean, Japanese students, come study with us or do business with us, we have some people who were educated in California or New York!"

It's exactly like Canadians who come to study in the US where they pretend they are just like Americans, but once back home in Canada, show their true colors.
 

on-hold

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kingkong1 said:
When has it become racist to call a Thai a Thai? And what the f--k do I care whether your Thai wife owns a house in Thailand? LOL. So you went from the U of Toronto to Duke? A top ten school? By the way it's pointless to go to graduate school unless you get a PhD or JD/MBA or other professional degrees that help you to get a job and make money.

A general advice given to kids who go to teach ESL in Asia is get out before it's too late, that is, long enough to pay your student loan back and satisfy your yellow fever. If you are stuck in Asia forever and try to come back home with an Asian wife after a decade or two, it's like serving a long prison sentence. You are out of touch with the real world. Teaching ESL is like a Mcjob.

I called this racist because you used my being married to a Thai woman as an example of misfortune -- here is your quote:

If you had your head screwed on right, you probably would have stayed in the US and gone to a US school. College is all about making connections these days, and you missed the boat. Now decades later, see where you stand, without a steady job and with a kid and a Thai wife.


It's obvious, in a sentence that starts out with my 'mistake' (going to a Canadian school), that having a Thai wife is a misfortune, to you, low-class or something. Your reply is also racist:

A general advice given to kids who go to teach ESL in Asia is get out before it's too late, that is, long enough to pay your student loan back and satisfy your yellow fever. If you are stuck in Asia forever and try to come back home with an Asian wife after a decade or two, it's like serving a long prison sentence.

What's your problem? I went to Thailand because I'd been an exchange student there in high school, speak the language and love the country. I worked there for several years in community development and village health education.

I think it's hilarious that you mock university rankings -- which can be fairly silly -- but have your own, highly-precise ranking of "Canadian schools suck". You're right, that is a really perceptive analysis. "Some guy told me at U of T." I'm not bragging that I did something amazing by getting in there -- I'm saying that the education I received there was first rate, and transferred seamlessly back to the U.S.

For the record, not everyone who goes to the University of Kansas can go to U of T -- KU is an open admissions school, and U of T is not. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? That's the thing about prejudices, people who have them are usually less intelligent -- a prejudice is something that takes the place of thought, and reduces the amount of thinking that has to be done.
 

kingkong1

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May 18, 2013
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on-hold said:
Look, people -- crikey . . . What do you expect? This is how we live in the West. We go to college, we make a lot of friends, we get a job, we get married, and we stop doing anything except sit at home and watch TV with our families. When you're 30 here, friends are for ignoring. Now a bunch of skilled immigrants come over and want to be our friends. Fine! Friends are people we grunt at as we walk to work. What did you want, Bollywood Canada with people dancing in the streets? Wet sari contests?

Also, why this need to be friends with Real Canadians? Toronto is half immigrant, make friends with them. That's probably two million people, should be enough.

I'm not making fun of people who have experience direct racism, that stuff is no funny -- but the 'cold, unfriendly, don't-smile-at-me thing is ridiculous! Especially when you use NYC as an example of what the States is like. I'm from the States, we are scum and Canadians are no different.
I don't think you get OP's point. Why do they want to make friends with "real Canadians"? It's probably because "real Canadians" are the only people in Canada who have "real jobs." So it seems pretty natural to me that skilled immigrants try to make friends with "real Canadians." That's the advice they get from job coaches at the community centres that help immigrants: GO OUT AND NETWORK, NETWORK. Many people here are in a dire and desperate situation, man. I think if your Thai wife had immigrated here alone or with a Thai husband, she'd have probably tried to do the same, that is, make friends with "real Canadians" so that she can get a job though networking, as most jobs here in Canada are filled by a word of mouth referral.
 

kingkong1

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May 18, 2013
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on-hold said:
I called this racist because you used my being married to a Thai woman as an example of misfortune -- here is your quote:

If you had your head screwed on right, you probably would have stayed in the US and gone to a US school. College is all about making connections these days, and you missed the boat. Now decades later, see where you stand, without a steady job and with a kid and a Thai wife.


It's obvious, in a sentence that starts out with my 'mistake' (going to a Canadian school), that having a Thai wife is a misfortune, to you, low-class or something. Your reply is also racist:

A general advice given to kids who go to teach ESL in Asia is get out before it's too late, that is, long enough to pay your student loan back and satisfy your yellow fever. If you are stuck in Asia forever and try to come back home with an Asian wife after a decade or two, it's like serving a long prison sentence.

What's your problem? I went to Thailand because I'd been an exchange student there in high school, speak the language and love the country. I worked there for several years in community development and village health education.

I think it's hilarious that you mock university rankings -- which can be fairly silly -- but have your own, highly-precise ranking of "Canadian schools suck". You're right, that is a really perceptive analysis. "Some guy told me at U of T." I'm not bragging that I did something amazing by getting in there -- I'm saying that the education I received there was first rate, and transferred seamlessly back to the U.S.

For the record, not everyone who goes to the University of Kansas can go to U of T -- KU is an open admissions school, and U of T is not. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? That's the thing about prejudices, people who have them are usually less intelligent -- a prejudice is something that takes the place of thought, and reduces the amount of thinking that has to be done.
I think you took offense with my use of the word Thai for some strange reason. LOL. I might have hit a nerve or something when I simply meant a kid and a foreign wife to support.

I don't have any problem with you having been in Thailand for a decade. What I am trying to point out is what happens to people like you when you try to start all over in a new country like Canada.

I don't mock university rankings but I generally don't take them seriously, especially the ones from the UK (world university rankings, which look really stupid).

Speaking of what I heard from the faculty at U of T, I'm not saying that's a norm, but it's just a trend.

I know Kansas is an open university, but like many Canadians who decided to attend a mediocre local university even though they had good high school records, many US students choose to attend a State university for various reasons (e.g. scholarships, living expenses, relationships... etc).

I'm not insinuating you didn't deserve an admission into U of Toronto like some black kids getting into a good school due to affirmative action, but I'm just stating a fact that Canada's top universities are eager to admit US applicants who are often less qualified than other international applicants, and that some US students take advantage of this.
 

margobear96

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kingkong1 said:
If you had your head screwed on right, you probably would have stayed in the US and gone to a US school. College is all about making connections these days, and you missed the boat.
Totally disagree with this. Who makes meaningful business "connections" in undergrad, unless you do live in one of those provincial, backwards pockets of the US? Maybe an Ivy league education will give you some cache when job hunting, but even there, I'd limit that type of effect to the "major" Ivys (Harvard, Yale...maybe Princeton or Columbia on a good day). A "minor" Ivy will get you little love outside of the Northeast corridor, nevermind another country. Seriously, do you know how many people confused UPenn with Penn State during the Sandusky abuse scandal? And if you're going on to grad/professional school, who cares where you went undergrad?

kingkong1 said:
Speaking of Canada's top universities, I'm not impressed. They are overrated just like Canada as a nation is. It's a well-known fact that they struggle with recruiting bright young American students, because smart American kids know they'll be treated like foreigners even with Canadian education, and most of all because they know there are no jobs in Canada. Canada is all about sales and factory assembly jobs, that is, minimum wage jobs. So education-wise it's been one way traffic and it'll remain that way.
Don't understand this point at all. Not sure why Canadian universities need to recruit any American students...other than to charge them the higher tuition like they do any international student. And frankly, I doubt any appreciable number of Canadians (bright or otherwise) go to the US for undergrad. Undergraduate programs in the US are ridiculously overpriced. I am ecstatic that I'm raising my kids in Canada where tuition and fees average about $2K to 5K a year, depending on the major. They can go to the US for grad school. (I agree that US grad schools are the best in the world.)
 

margobear96

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steaky said:
So why do you care if I am a desi or chinese citizen. I am Canadian. Period. :)
Because you seemed to have trouble understanding the previous comments regarding Canadians "not traveling" (i.e., confusing moving somewhere with commuting). I think he/she was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming the problem arose because you were not a native English speaker.
 

kingkong1

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May 18, 2013
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margobear96 said:
Totally disagree with this. Who makes meaningful business "connections" in undergrad, unless you do live in one of those provincial, backwards pockets of the US? Maybe an Ivy league education will give you some cache when job hunting, but even there, I'd limit that type of effect to the "major" Ivys (Harvard, Yale...maybe Princeton or Columbia on a good day). A "minor" Ivy will get you little love outside of the Northeast corridor, nevermind another country. Seriously, do you know how many people confused UPenn with Penn State during the Sandusky abuse scandal? And if you're going on to grad/professional school, who cares where you went undergrad?

Don't understand this point at all. Not sure why Canadian universities need to recruit any American students...other than to charge them the higher tuition like they do any international student. And frankly, I doubt any appreciable number of Canadians (bright or otherwise) go to the US for undergrad. Undergraduate programs in the US are ridiculously overpriced. I am ecstatic that I'm raising my kids in Canada where tuition and fees average about $2K to 5K a year, depending on the major. They can go to the US for grad school. (I agree that US grad schools are the best in the world.)
Yes, I mostly meant Ivys (e.g. Skull & Bones in Yale) and some other public Ivys in the US. I stick to my guns, and will say college is all about making connections these days, especially so if your degree is not in STEM fields, more so if you have a degree in the humanities and social sciences. More so if a school or program you attended is highly regarded. Confused with U Penn with Penn State? Really? It's unthinkable in my discipline. PSU (a jock school) doesn't even come close to U Penn.

Most Canadians can't afford to send their kids to top private US schools, but wealthy Canadians do. There are lots and lots of Canadians attending State universities and not so good universities in the US, but there are so few of American kids wanting to study in Canadian universities, so Canadian schools offer scholarships to these American kids.

Yeah it's cheap to send your kids to Canadian universities, but what consequences your kids will face after graduation? Yes the job market is tough for university graduates in the US but here in Canada it's even worse, it's an ongoing social problem here. There are so many U of Toronto graduates waiting tables and working in retail in Toronto. It's not just immigrants who want to get out of Canada after getting a CA passport, but also Canadian university graduates who were born and educated here because there are so few job opportunities here. You'll see a disproportionate number of ESL teachers in Asia are Canadian college graduates. Canadian ESL teachers outnumber American teachers in most Asian countries, which tells us the state of Canadian economy. Remember Canada's population is one tenth of the US population, and a large percentage of Canadians (French Canadians) don't speak proper English. Like I said, ESL teaching is like a Mcjob. It's not a well-paid job at all.

On-hold thinks I have an agenda and that I'm hell-bent on Canada bashing. I'm not, and I'm just stating a fact.