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Sick and Tired

michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
Have tried a total of four times to bring a friend to Canada for a ten day visit to meet my family and continually get refused. After the third time, accessed previous decisions through ATTIP and consulted a lawyer and spend four months gathering and notarizing documents. The first three times, the denial was for funds, travel history and purpose of trip. The fourth time we were able to have the denial reduced to purpose of trip, which means the many documents submitted were regarded as a lie. We provided prepaid flight information, car rental, hotel, two letters of invitation, a customized travel brochure should each location visited and reason for each stop, a detailed schedule noting dates, times and highways traveled as well as addresses for over nighting. Medical reports were provided to prove that the applicant was not pregnant. criminal record checks were provided by me, my mother and the applicant. I even gave a copy of my military identification hoping that would give some credibility. The applicant also gave a letter of intention for the visit, and provided a criminal record check from China. In addition, full evidence was provided for any questions that came up from previous applications. Five years of information of source of funds was provided including a contract for selling a store, as that was the source of some of her funds. Letter from employer granting 15 days of work and noting that she is a director with the company and held the job since 1989. Hone ownership documents were provided along with a car ownership document. A letter was provided noting that she cares for elderly parents. her income was provided as well as my income and source of employment. We provided every thing our lawyer said to provide. Every document was notarized in Canada. Documents from China were translated into English and certified as true in accordance with Chinese law.

We are done at this point. No matter what we do they don't believe us. Today, i submitted my release from the Canadian Forces, as I refuse to defend a nation that treats me in this way.

We are launching a legal appeal in the Federal Court of Appeal. I also had a meeting with the RCMP, who told me that they would be willing to consider charging Citizenship and Immigration under the criminal code of Canada for FRAUD, if the appeal case is successful. Under the criminal code of Canada one can be charged for fraud if one intentionally misrepresents information in regards to the provision of a service. We are going to argue that sufficient information was submitted that a reasonable person could accept the true purpose of the trip, especially since the documents were signed under oath of law with sufficient supporting documents. Visa Officers require applicants to be true and honest when applying, well, they also need to process documents in a manner that holds to the same honesty.
 
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Bryanna

VIP Member
Sep 8, 2014
14,136
3,122
Have tried a total of four times to bring a friend to Canada for a ten day visit to meet my family and continually get refused. After the third time, accessed previous decisions through ATTIP and consulted a lawyer and spend four months gathering and notarizing documents. The first three times, the denial was for funds, travel history and purpose of trip. The fourth time we were able to have the denial reduced to purpose of trip, which means the many documents submitted were regarded as a lie. We provided prepaid flight information, car rental, hotel, two letters of invitation, a customized travel brochure should each location visited and reason for each stop, a detailed schedule noting dates, times and highways traveled as well as addresses for over nighting. Medical reports were provided to prove that the applicant was not pregnant. criminal record checks were provided by me, my mother and the applicant. I even gave a copy of my military identification hoping that would give some credibility. The applicant also gave a letter of intention for the visit, and provided a criminal record check from China. In addition, full evidence was provided for any questions that came up from previous applications. Five years of information of source of funds was provided including a contract for selling a store, as that was the source of some of her funds. Letter from employer granting 15 days of work and noting that she is a director with the company and held the job since 1989. Hone ownership documents were provided along with a car ownership document. A letter was provided noting that she cares for elderly parents. her income was provided as well as my income and source of employment. We provided every thing our lawyer said to provide. Every document was notarized in Canada. Documents from China were translated into English and certified as true in accordance with Chinese law.

We are done at this point. No matter what we do they don't believe us. Today, i submitted my release from the Canadian Forces, as I refuse to defend a nation that treats me in this way.

We are launching a legal appeal in the Federal Court of Appeal. I also had a meeting with the RCMP, who told me that they would be willing to consider charging Citizenship and Immigration under the criminal code of Canada for FRAUD, if the appeal case is successful. Under the criminal code of Canada one can be charged for fraud if one intentionally misrepresents information in regards to the provision of a service. We are going to argue that sufficient information was submitted that a reasonable person could accept the true purpose of the trip, especially since the documents were signed under oath of law with sufficient supporting documents. Visa Officers require applicants to be true and honest when applying, well, they also need to process documents in a manner that holds to the same honesty.
I'm being completely non-judgemental here.

Four attempts can get frustrating and could make anyone feel like they're at their wits end in trying to solve the visa puzzle. I totally empathize with you and your friend. However, I do believe you would be attempting another long, arduous, expensive and futile exercise by going the appeal route and the lets-get-IRCC-charged-for-fraud intention.

As you know, a visa is a privilege and not a right. If an applicant does not meet the visa entry requirements, s/he won't be granted one.

I'm not sure why you believe IRCC officers should be charged for misrepresentation in this case or that the visa officers who assessed your friend's file were dishonest and they have committed fraud.

IMO, there are no grounds for this + IRCC would not benefit/was not motivated in any way to commit misrepresentation/fraud in your friend's case.


Before you start the appeal process, you may want to consider these points:
1. Notarizing any document does not carry any legal benefits and/or carries zero value for a visa assessment. Also, notarization is generally not required for visa applications from most countries.

2. The 'Purpose of visit' refusal for the fourth application does not imply in any way that the refusals reasons for the previous applications were overcome. 'Purpose of Visit' and 'Travel History' could be generic refusal reasons in some cases.

3. Maybe your friend went a bit OTT in submitting medical reports to prove she is not pregnant + her criminal records. Medical tests and PCCs are not required unless specifically requested by the visa office.

Her medical reports to prove she is not pregnant, IMO, probably made her application to appear *suspicious* and not of a *genuine visitor*.

Also, not sure who advised you to submit criminal checks for yourself and your mom (both Canadian hosts). It again put your friend's application under the wrong focus.

4. Your persistent efforts, including by you trying too hard, probably made the visa officers to question whether there is more than just *friendship*.


We can try to help you if you want:
1. When did your friend apply for the first time and the fourth time?

2. Do post the documents she submitted the fourth time (both host and applicant)

3. Has she traveled to countries such as the US, UK, Schengen, Australia, NZ, etc?

4. Did your invitation letter mention you will provide accommodation?

5. What was the purpose of her visit apart from sightseeing?

6. Was she able to financially afford the visit without being dependent on you? This would include the visit plan which she submitted + her airfare + surplus funds.

7. Who paid/stated would pay for the pre-booked plane tickets, car rentals and hotels?

8. Hopefully, your friend earns reasonably well by China's economic standards. What documents did she provide for her employment + her financials + home ownership, etc?
 
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michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
Hi. It is a little more complicated than I explained. We have been in a relationship for over two years now. We have met several times in china, four times last year and travelled internationally together on a vacation. She has been to New Zealand and a few other counties. We were clear that the purpose of the trip was to meet my family since I have already met her family and social circle. I consulted a lawyer who recommended the criminal record check and the medical reports. The lawyer reviewed ATTIP results and worked with me to respond to all questions. For income provided pay receipts. For house provided ownership papers. Also letter from employer for leave from work. Papers were noterized to show proof that presented under oath of law. The lawyer felt that we needed to respond to all concerns uncovered through ATTIP with an eye to having enough firepower to win in court if rejected again.
 

michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
I paid pre booked tickets. Her net worth was shown at 250,000 Canadian with over $150,000 in bank. Said in invitation letter would provide accommodations while visiting my mom. First applied in 2016.
 

Bryanna

VIP Member
Sep 8, 2014
14,136
3,122
Hi. It is a little more complicated than I explained. We have been in a relationship for over two years now. We have met several times in china, four times last year and travelled internationally together on a vacation. She has been to New Zealand and a few other counties. We were clear that the purpose of the trip was to meet my family since I have already met her family and social circle.
IMO, this is the real reason for her TRV refusals.

If you included evidence/statements that said you're in a relationship with her + tons of photographs/emails/chat records, etc to prove the relationship then this indicated that her relationship with you is serious = She might overstay her visit and/or file for spousal/common-law PR via the inland route later.

IRCC (as well as visa officers of other countries) base their assessments on what is known as the *balance of probabilities*. Her reasons to remain in Canada were stronger than her reasons to return to China. So, applying the balance of probabilities meant she would not return to China at the end of her visit.


I consulted a lawyer who recommended the criminal record check and the medical reports.
IMO, these were a waste + worked against her TRV approval.


The lawyer reviewed ATTIP results and worked with me to respond to all questions. For income provided pay receipts. For house provided ownership papers. Also letter from employer for leave from work. Papers were noterized to show proof that presented under oath of law. The lawyer felt that we needed to respond to all concerns uncovered through ATTIP with an eye to having enough firepower to win in court if rejected again.
Unfortunately, the lawyer failed to recognize the main/real reason for her TRV refusals. It would have saved you and your gf from a lot of stress and pain if your lawyer had advised you correctly.

We see many cases that are similar to yours. Most are refused just like your gf. Those that are successful in getting TRVs do not over-emphasize their relationship and/or present reasons to return to their home countries with stronger, compelling evidence.

I would recommend you do not go the appeal route + do not attempt to charge IRCC for fraud/misrepresentation. It could only cause more stress, frustration and anxiety with slim chances of success at the end.


You may want to:
1. Reapply with stronger evidence of her ties to China. Personally, I believe she has a strong case but she has not presented her file/evidence in a more visa-oriented manner. We can help if you want us to, OR

2. If you'd like to take the relationship to the next level then you could apply to sponsor her through the outland spousal PR route after you marry her
 

michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
I submitted my request for leave today from the Canadian Forces and will moving to China. We decided to get married this summer and will live in China. We were planing on taking things much slower than this but have come to realize we actually need to get married sooner rather than later. The hope was that we could spend vacations with each other until retirement for both of us in about two years from now. Still going to appeal as we don’t really care to ever see Canada again, either of us. I only want to appeal now so that I can move forth with fraud charges. I have reviewed with RCMP and the officer feels there is a chance to go this route. In visa denial three the visa officer actually referenced her trip from China to New Zealand as regional travel for China. There were several other odd statements such as this. This last submission had more than enough evidence to prove our intention of introducing to my family. My only goal now is to have fraud charges laid and to never again wear a uniform in Defence if Canada ever again.
 

canuck_in_uk

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
31,553
7,204
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
06/12
I submitted my request for leave today from the Canadian Forces and will moving to China. We decided to get married this summer and will live in China. We were planing on taking things much slower than this but have come to realize we actually need to get married sooner rather than later. The hope was that we could spend vacations with each other until retirement for both of us in about two years from now. Still going to appeal as we don’t really care to ever see Canada again, either of us. I only want to appeal now so that I can move forth with fraud charges. I have reviewed with RCMP and the officer feels there is a chance to go this route. In visa denial three the visa officer actually referenced her trip from China to New Zealand as regional travel for China. There were several other odd statements such as this. This last submission had more than enough evidence to prove our intention of introducing to my family. My only goal now is to have fraud charges laid and to never again wear a uniform in Defence if Canada ever again.
Trying to have IRCC charged with fraud will go nowhere. Don't waste RCMP resources because your girlfriend was refused a TRV. She does not have the right of entry to Canada and that is written in law. I get you are frustrated but you guys made mistakes and as Bryanna said, had the app been presented in a much different way, she would have had a much better chance of approval.
 

michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
She provide sufficient proof. If she does not have the right then as I said, fine. We are not planing on returning to Canada now anyway. What I do have a right is to never enter this country again. As I said, we will make a life for ourself in China and my family can travel to China to meet her. I am still moving forth with charges. That is my right and I am doing it. As far as mistakes, we had legal guidance and an application that clearly addressed each concern identified in the documents I accessed under ATTIP. The only mistake make was by the idiot that processed the application.
 
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michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
The only reason they denied was that they did not believe the true purpose of the visit. I had two invitation letters, a detailed schedule and route map and an explaination of each location visited and the reason for the visit such as my mother’s home and a two day drive to my dad’s gravesite along with hotel reservations at Niagara Falls Return flight tickets and a car rental agreement. There is nothing more we could provide for a ten day visit. I comes down to calling us liars. Visa officers have an obligation to process with integrity. I even provided a letter of reference from an RCMP office testifying that my intentions can be trusted and a letter of reference from an assistant deputy minister that has know me for years. This was provided because previous applications had concerns about my true intentions. There was more than enough information provided
 

michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
So don’t tell me I am wasting RCMP tome after I wasted four months of my time money and energy completing an application package under the assumption that it would be processed with some send of Justice. Really people.
 
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canuck_in_uk

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
31,553
7,204
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
06/12
She provide sufficient proof. If she does not have the right then as I said, fine. We are not planing on returning to Canada now anyway. What I do have a right is to never enter this country again. As I said, we will make a life for ourself in China and my family can travel to China to meet her. I am still moving forth with charges. That is my right and I am doing it. As far as mistakes, we had legal guidance and an application that clearly addressed each concern identified in the documents I accessed under ATTIP. The only mistake make was by the idiot that processed the application.
The only reason they denied was that they did not believe the true purpose of the visit. I had two invitation letters, a detailed schedule and route map and an explaination of each location visited and the reason for the visit such as my mother’s home and a two day drive to my dad’s gravesite along with hotel reservations at Niagara Falls Return flight tickets and a car rental agreement. There is nothing more we could provide for a ten day visit. I comes down to calling us liars. Visa officers have an obligation to process with integrity. I even provided a letter of reference from an RCMP office testifying that my intentions can be trusted and a letter of reference from an assistant deputy minister that has know me for years. This was provided because previous applications had concerns about my true intentions. There was more than enough information provided
You will only be taking RCMP resources away from genuine cases that need them and actually have a chance of being successful.

You certainly made mistakes. The first was not ordering GCMS notes after the first refusal. Without the notes, it is safe to say you did not address the actual detailed refusal reasons in the second and third apps, such as the relationship with you vs. the ties to her country. With three refusals, her chances were low regardless of the app you put together. With the fourth app, as Bryanna said, things like the medical, PCCs, letters from RCMP/ministers about your character, notarizing all of the documents etc. were suspicious and likely went against you; regular visitors don't do all of that.

She has showed a very strong desire to be in Canada and with a Canadian partner, that makes her a high risk to overstay.
 

michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
Correct. We should have asked for that information after the first refusal and that is why I final went to a lawyer for the fourth. The lawyer told me that the previous three applications would work against us so she made sure we had sufficient information to ensure a court victory if it failed. What she showed was a very strong desire to see my family as I saw her family and to see my country as I saw her country. We are honest people have have been treated like liars. She is a very proud Chinese National loves her country and has no interested in ever giving up her place in China nor her citizenship. Not everyone is looking to sneak into this country.
 
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michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
At any rate going to cancel my membership here. Don’t see any point in carrying on this conversation on and not much resources for my course of action. The sad thing about our visitor visa process is that it is set up so that applicants have little chance of success unles they get services from the rather large industry that has grown to help people through a complex system that should be much simplistic. I will cancel my membership here and find a place that will have the information I am looking for to fight this the way I want too. I wish you much profit in this industry.
 

michael1965

Full Member
Apr 24, 2018
26
6
The last thing I will say on this is that after a life time of service to my country, it seems that in the end my word is with nothing to my country.
 

canuck_in_uk

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
31,553
7,204
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
06/12
Correct. We should have asked for that information after the first refusal and that is why I final went to a lawyer for the fourth. The lawyer told me that the previous three applications would work against us so she made sure we had sufficient information to ensure a court victory if it failed. What she showed was a very strong desire to see my family as I saw her family and to see my country as I saw her country. We are honest people have have been treated like liars. She is a very proud Chinese National loves her country and has no interested in ever giving up her place in China nor her citizenship. Not everyone is looking to sneak into this country.
She has showed a strong desire to come to Canada, period. Unfortunately for your partner, way too many people from China have tried to sneak in this way and she is paying the price for that. The lawyer really didn't give you very good advice in the fourth app.

At any rate going to cancel my membership here. Don’t see any point in carrying on this conversation on and not much resources for my course of action. The sad thing about our visitor visa process is that it is set up so that applicants have little chance of success unles they get services from the rather large industry that has grown to help people through a complex system that should be much simplistic. I will cancel my membership here and find a place that will have the information I am looking for to fight this the way I want too. I wish you much profit in this industry.
The TRV process is not set up for people to fail. Close to one million TRVs are approved each year, with an approval rate of around 75-80%.