+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445
Congrates Neha. Could you please tell me how much time in total it took in FSW process? On FSW official webpage they mentioned to process all application in 12 months. Actually i am planning to apply under FSW next month after completing my CELPIP. Will it help to cut down processing time if i apply directly to one of the visa office in Canada?
Thanks for your reply.
- Gaurav

neha_arora1985 said:
Hello Everyone,
My E-cas status has been changed now.

We received your application for permanent residence on September 24, 2012.
We started processing your application on March 4, 2013.


Fingers crossed!
 
dbss said:
I don't think you need your educational certificates notarized...Translations yes but the certificates which are already in English, you can just photocopy them and send....that is what I did.

Thanks Dbss!! I had one more question. Do i need to send my application to VO in ottawa when i am applying for FSW from Canada or Shall i send it to sydney, NS?
- Gaurav
 
gaurav1182 said:
Congrates Neha. Could you please tell me how much time in total it took in FSW process? On FSW official webpage they mentioned to process all application in 12 months. Actually i am planning to apply under FSW next month after completing my CELPIP. Will it help to cut down processing time if i apply directly to one of the visa office in Canada?
Thanks for your reply.
- Gaurav
That will depend on where you currently live and how long you have been living there. The instruction is very specific on which Visa Office you can use
 
gaurav1182 said:
Thanks Dbss!! I had one more question. Do i need to send my application to VO in ottawa when i am applying for FSW from Canada or Shall i send it to sydney, NS?
- Gaurav

All PR applications are now sent to CIO, Sydney NS which sends you the PER if your application accepted or returns it back if not accepted.

Once application accepted by CIO, it would be automatically transferred to Ottawa.
 
Congrats Neha.
Thnx shan
 
Congrats neha_arora1985 for your e-cas updating!! :D
Hope your MR coming soon!!

Table 1 ; APP filed - PER
Name Local VO App Sent Received CC/DD Charged PER Note
eshotel New DelhiAug-13- - Oct-23NOC: 6242
rhen ongsico Manila Aug-17Aug-22Oct-19Nov-08-
Thedippaar Ottawa Aug-21Aug-23Oct-25Oct-29-
gpranav New DelhiAug-24Aug-27- Oct-31-
mysteaka Ottawa Aug-30Sep-04Nov-02Nov-05-
hithere Ottawa Aug-28Sep-05Nov-05Nov-06-
Doni Vienna Sep-12Sep-18- Nov-15-
ds3010 Ottawa Sep-13Sep-17Nov-05- Jan-8-2013 Doc requested
(Additional Doc) Jan-16-2013Jan-21-2013 Jan-22-2013-
ainda - Sep-17- Nov-05- Dec-05 refused
Dec-10 sent an e-mail
neha_arora1985 New DelhiSep-19Sep-23Nov-18Nov-19-
jibinseb Ottawa Sep-18- Nov-14Nov-15-
vik81 Ottawa Sep-26Sep-28Nov-19Nov-19-
volors - Sep-27Oct-02Nov-2527-Nov-
shanindia2007 New DelhiOct-29Nov-06Dec-27 Jan-03-2013-
jaz0020 Ottawa - Oct-17Nov-28- Dec-03
(Sent back) Dec-04Dec-06Jan-16-2013Jan-31-2013App returned
mani_7835 Ottawa Oct-21Oct-26Dec-10- -
blok45 Vienna Oct-22Oct-29- Dec-31-
snowyz Ottawa Oct-22- Dec-26Jan-03-2013-
gfairc Kingston OctOct-29- Jan-28-2013-
suchnaju - Nov-01Nov-05- Dec-27-
shahid_iet Ottawa Nov-02Nov-05Dec-18Dec-27-
nalamj New DelhiNov-10Nov-24Jan-09-2013Jan-14-2013-
bsingh Ottawa -Dec-4Jan-24-2013Feb-02-2013-
VIJAY10302 New DelhiDec-20Dec-24Jan-25-2013Feb-12-2013-
dbss Ottawa Nov-25Nov-29Jan-14-2013Jan-28-2013NOC: 2282
saqib.ali Ottawa Dec-10Dec-10-Feb-04-2013-
amdee Ottawa Dec-10Dec-14Jan-24-2013Feb-05-2013
katyyy Ottawa -Jan-04-2013-Feb-17-2013NOC: 2282
ta2 Ottawa Feb-03-2013Feb-07-2013Feb-14-2013Feb-28-2013NOC: 5241
itsmyid - Feb-04-2013Feb-06-2013Feb-14-2013Feb-27-2013-

Table 2 ; PER - Landing
Name Local VO PER 2nd AOR MR PPR1 PPR2(PP back) Landing
eshotel New DelhiOct-23-2012Nov-08-2012----
rhen ongsico Manila Nov-08-2012-----
Thedippaar Ottawa Oct-29-2012-----
gpranav New DelhiOct-31-2012-----
mysteaka Ottawa Nov-05-2012-----
hithere Ottawa Nov-06-2012-----
Doni Vienna Nov-15-2012Dec-05-2012----
ds3010 Ottawa Jan-22-2013-----
ainda - - -----
neha_arora1985 New DelhiNov-19-2012Feb-23-2013----
jibinseb Ottawa Nov-15-2012-----
vik81 Ottawa Nov-19-2012-----
volors - Nov-27-2012-----
shanindia2007 New DelhiJan-03-2013Feb-23-2013----
jaz0020 Ottawa Jan-31-2013-----
mani_7835 Ottawa - -----
blok45 Vienna Dec-31-2012-----
snowyz Ottawa Jan-03-2012-----
gfairc Kingston Jan-28-2013-----
suchnaju - Dec-27-2012-----
shahid_iet Ottawa Dec-27-2012-----
nalamj New DelhiJan-14-2013Feb-27-2013----
bsingh Ottawa Feb-02-2013------
VIJAY10302 New DelhiFeb-12-2013Mar-02-2013----
dbss Ottawa Jan-28-2013-----
saqib.ali Ottawa Feb-04-2013-----
amdee Ottawa Feb-05-2013-----
katyyy Ottawa - -----
ta2 Ottawa Feb-28-2013-----
itsmyid Ottawa Feb-27-2013-----

Table 3 ; E-CAS

NameVOContact from CICLostRestoredStatus changedLineNote
eshotel New DelhiPER:Oct-23-2012
AOR:Nov-08-2012
Feb-04-2013Feb-20-2013noNDVO start reviewed on 27 Feb-
rhen ongsico Manila PER:Nov-08-2012
- - - Apprication received on 22 Aug-
Thedippaar Ottawa PER:Oct-29-2012
- - - Apprication received on 23 Aug-
gpranav New DelhiPER:Oct-31-2012
Feb-06-2013Feb-18-2013no--
mysteaka Ottawa PER:Nov-05-2012
Feb-08-2013Feb-20-2013noApprication received on 4 Sep-
hithere Ottawa PER:Nov-06-2012
Feb-09-2013Feb-17-2013noApprication received on 5 Sep-
Doni Vienna PER:Nov-15-2012
AOR:Dec-05-2012
Feb-07-2013Feb-18-2013noApprication received on 18 Sep-
ds3010 Ottawa PER:Jan-22-2013
- - - Apprication received on 17 Sep-
ainda - -
- - - --
neha_arora1985 New DelhiPER:Nov-19-2012
AOR:Feb-23-2013
- - - Apprication received on 24 Sep
NDVO start reviewed on 04 Mar
-
jibinseb Ottawa PER:Nov-15-2012
- - - --
vik81 Ottawa PER:Nov-19-2012
- - - --
volors - PER:Nov-27-2012
- - - --
shanindia2007 New DelhiPER:Jan-03-2013
AOR:Feb-23-2013
- - - Apprication received on 6 Nov-
jaz0020 Ottawa PER:Jan-31-2013
Feb-06-2013Feb-12-2013noApprication received on 17 OctInformation that CIC gave
mani_7835 Ottawa -
- - - --
blok45 Vienna PER:Dec-31-2012
- - - Apprication received on 29 Oct-
snowyz Ottawa PER:Jan-03-2012
- - - In Process-
gfairc Kingston PER:Jan-28-2013
- - - --
suchnaju - PER:Dec-27-2012
- - - Apprication received on 5 Nov-
shahid_iet Ottawa PER:Dec-27-2012
- - - Apprication received on 5 Nov-
nalamj New DelhiPER:Jan-14-2013
AOR:Feb-27-2013
- - - Apprication received on 24 Nov-
bsingh Ottawa PER:Feb-02-2013
Feb-04-2013Feb-10-2013no--
VIJAY10302 New DelhiPER:Feb-12-2013
- - - --
dbss Ottawa PER:Jan-28-2013
Feb-07-2013Feb-10-2013noApprication received on 29 Nov-
saqib.ali Ottawa PER:Feb-04-2013
- - - --
amdee Ottawa PER:Feb-05-2013
Feb-08-2013Feb-10-2013noApprication received on 14 Dec-
katyyy Ottawa -
- - - --
ta2 Ottawa PER:Feb-28-2013
- - - --
itsmyid Ottawa PER:Feb-27-2013
- - - --
fukirua Ottawa PER:May-18-2012
Feb-05-2013Feb-18-2013noAppricatgion ReceivedMI3/MI4http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/mi/index.asp#mi3http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/mi/index.asp#mi3
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/mi/index.asp#mi3


VO : Visa Office. For processing times, see [url=http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/perm/skilled-fed.asp]"Processing times for federal skilled worker applications" on CIC website
. CIC explained that "Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) calculates processing times from the day CIC receives an application to the day it makes a decision on the application.". More details can be shown in Help Centre on CIC.

PER : Positive Eligibility Review - An email which shows your file number and so on. It will be sent from CIO if your application passes the initial eligibility review. See the other thread titled "What is PER", a senior's website or this pic for more details.

AOR : Acknowledgment of Receipt - An email which informs that your full documents have been received by visa office and has been put in queue for processing. Sometimes this is called "2nd AOR" or "Waiting letter" ; In this case, "1st AOR" means "PER". See the other thread titled "what is 2nd AOR" for more details.
You can also see the 2nd AOR from Vienna Visa Office (Thanks Doni!)

MR : Medical Request - An email (or a regular mail) that requests you to take medical exams. It might be included in the Initial Assessment.

PPR : Passport Request or Confirmation of Permanent Residence - An email (or a regular mail) that requests you to send VO your passport. If you are a citizen of the countries or territories listed in CIC website, you probably receive a "Passport Request". If you are from the visitor visa exemptions country, you maybe receive a "Confirmation of Permanent Residence" instead of passport request and then you can go landing immediately.

Links : What happen after PER? - Helpful information by seniors though it's little old.
 
@gpranav,
gpranav said:
Hello Seniors,

Something unusual application. Do anyone know if AOR will be issued on first come basis or merit of the application. I did not get the second AOR from NDVO yet. Wondering what may be the reason? Can I ask them?

Thank you all for any suggestion.

Just in my opinion, you can ask NDVO...

HOWEVER,

When you ask NDVO, please don't tell officers your stress and frustration even if you worry about your process.

I heard that an applicant have taken a medical exam on Jan 2012, but s/he didn't get anything for 10 months. When s/he asked the status to Ottawa, the officer said "Never contact CIC". Maybe the inquiry made his/her process delay... On the other hand, another applicant who have the same timeline had sent inquiry to Ottawa. He asked "My medical result will be expired within 2 months. Will my process be done within 2 months or should I take 2nd medical exam? Please give me advice." ...2 weeks later, he got COPR (kind of PPR) and landed on December 2012.
Although those stories are for Ottawa applicants waiting PPR, I'm worrying if NDVO officers have the same thinkings...so... maybe "Need help" is good. "Just asking" is bad.

Best of luck for you !!


@gaurav1182,
Nice to meet you :)
As other friends said, answers for your questions depend on :
* Your visa office (You can choose the office that in (1) your country of nationality, or (2) the country in which you are residing, provided that you have been lawfully admitted to that country for at least one year.)
* When you file your application
* etc, etc...

If your visa office is Beijing or Hong Kong, you must also apply for verification of the highest post-secondary degree(s)/diploma(s) that were obtained in the People's Republic of China.
If your degree(s)/diploma(s)/transcript(s) are not written in English of French, you must need the Certified true copy of them and the Translation of these documents with affidavit.
If you plan to file your application after next May, you need "the verification of your education" by Canadian government.

If the New Delhi Visa Office will process your application, you probably will became the permanent resident within a year, but if the Ottawa will process, you maybe will wait 2-3 years.... I think so.
Please note that nobody can answer about the processing times correctly, even if the CIC officer... therefore, please search senior's logs/blogs/timelines etc carefully.
I think trackitt.com will help you as well.

Please visit the CIC website. It must help you. Please read the guide and many other helpful contents :)


So sorry about my weak english....... :'(
 
dear all,
I have applied on may 2012 with AEO & rejected.now again applied on february 2013.can ans me: -my file number was same as before or get new one?approx how many days reqiures now a days for Per?
 
Thank You Mysteaka,

I had sent a case specific inquiry that I need to send additional documents and if I can send without AOR. Will that be ok?
 
neha_arora1985 said:
Hello Everyone,
My E-cas status has been changed now.

We received your application for permanent residence on September 24, 2012.
We started processing your application on March 4, 2013.


Fingers crossed!

Your time line seems similar to mine, You can expect to receive Medicals and RPRF request by 4th May.
Be prepared for that in Advance.

Good Luck
 
gpranav said:
Thank You Mysteaka,

I had sent a case specific inquiry that I need to send additional documents and if I can send without AOR. Will that be ok?

Yes, I strongly believe that it's ok :)
 
Dear friends whose VO is CPP-O,

My Japanese friend said, he found the posting in Japanese BBS (http://bbs.jpcanada.com/topics.php?bbs=5&msgid=9430&order=0&cat=&icon=&dummy=2 / Note : written in Japanese... :( ) , and that posting shows one applicant's story which mentions "CPP-O didn't update E-CAS".

My friend also said :
According to the posting, a woman applied under the Quebec Skilled worker.
Her application was transferred from Buffalo to Ottawa on 2012 Summer.
In Feb 2013, she got an e-mail from CPP-O that requested her to send her husband's application docs.
However, her husband is a Canadian. So she sent a reply to CPP-O.

Before that, E-CAS had been showing only "Application Received".
After she replied to CPP-O, her E-CAS status was updated.
3 days later, CPP-O requested her to send 2 photos and document which shows biodata (eye color, hair color and height).
A week later, she received a COPR (because she is able to go landing without PPR).

This is not a story of the FSW applicant, this is just one of tons, many seniors said "E-CAS is not useful", and we know E-CAS updating depends on each officer/office.
However, I think maybe it's a one of the evidence of that "CPP-O doesn't update E-CAS"...
 
application received by cic as on 5th september 2012
per as on 6th november 2012
aor as on 10th december 2012
vo - new delhi
status- in process
any one who got any update applied to near this dates
thanks
 
mysteaka said:
Yes, I strongly believe that it's ok :)

Hi Mysteaka,

Please add me to the list. I have been following your posts very closely in the last 2 weeks. You are doing a great job. Kudos to you for that.
Here are my details.

FSW Sent: Feb 19, 2013
Received: Feb 21, 2013
CC charged: Mar 4, 2013
PER: Mar 8, 2013.
VO: CPP-O

Thanks.
 
Welcome prempatel1986 and ghatot201! Nice to see you :)

Table 1 ; APP filed - PER
Name Local VO App Sent Received CC/DD Charged PER Note
eshotel New DelhiAug-13- - Oct-23NOC: 6242
rhen ongsico Manila Aug-17Aug-22Oct-19Nov-08-
Thedippaar Ottawa Aug-21Aug-23Oct-25Oct-29-
gpranav New DelhiAug-24Aug-27- Oct-31-
mysteaka Ottawa Aug-30Sep-04Nov-02Nov-05-
hithere Ottawa Aug-28Sep-05Nov-05Nov-06-
prempatel1986 New Delhi- Sep-05- Nov-06-
Doni Vienna Sep-12Sep-18- Nov-15-
ds3010 Ottawa Sep-13Sep-17Nov-05- Jan-8-2013 Doc requested
(Additional Doc) Jan-16-2013Jan-21-2013 Jan-22-2013-
ainda - Sep-17- Nov-05- Dec-05 refused
Dec-10 sent an e-mail
neha_arora1985 New DelhiSep-19Sep-23Nov-18Nov-19-
jibinseb Ottawa Sep-18- Nov-14Nov-15-
vik81 Ottawa Sep-26Sep-28Nov-19Nov-19-
volors - Sep-27Oct-02Nov-2527-Nov-
shanindia2007 New DelhiOct-29Nov-06Dec-27 Jan-03-2013-
jaz0020 Ottawa - Oct-17Nov-28- Dec-03
(Sent back) Dec-04Dec-06Jan-16-2013Jan-31-2013App returned
mani_7835 Ottawa Oct-21Oct-26Dec-10- -
blok45 Vienna Oct-22Oct-29- Dec-31-
snowyz Ottawa Oct-22- Dec-26Jan-03-2013-
gfairc Kingston OctOct-29- Jan-28-2013-
suchnaju - Nov-01Nov-05- Dec-27-
shahid_iet Ottawa Nov-02Nov-05Dec-18Dec-27-
nalamj New DelhiNov-10Nov-24Jan-09-2013Jan-14-2013-
bsingh Ottawa -Dec-4Jan-24-2013Feb-02-2013-
VIJAY10302 New DelhiDec-20Dec-24Jan-25-2013Feb-12-2013-
dbss Ottawa Nov-25Nov-29Jan-14-2013Jan-28-2013NOC: 2282
saqib.ali Ottawa Dec-10Dec-10-Feb-04-2013-
amdee Ottawa Dec-10Dec-14Jan-24-2013Feb-05-2013
katyyy Ottawa -Jan-04-2013-Feb-17-2013NOC: 2282
ta2 Ottawa Feb-03-2013Feb-07-2013Feb-14-2013Feb-28-2013NOC: 5241
itsmyid - Feb-04-2013Feb-06-2013Feb-14-2013Feb-27-2013-
ghatot201 Ottawa Feb-19-2013Feb-21-2013Mar-04-2013Mar-08-2013-

Table 2 ; PER - Landing
Name Local VO PER 2nd AOR MR PPR1 PPR2(PP back) Landing
eshotel New DelhiOct-23-2012Nov-08-2012----
rhen ongsico Manila Nov-08-2012-----
Thedippaar Ottawa Oct-29-2012-----
gpranav New DelhiOct-31-2012-----
mysteaka Ottawa Nov-05-2012-----
hithere Ottawa Nov-06-2012-----
prempatel1986 New DelhiNov-06-2012Dec-10-2012----
Doni Vienna Nov-15-2012Dec-05-2012----
ds3010 Ottawa Jan-22-2013-----
ainda - - -----
neha_arora1985 New DelhiNov-19-2012Feb-23-2013----
jibinseb Ottawa Nov-15-2012-----
vik81 Ottawa Nov-19-2012-----
volors - Nov-27-2012-----
shanindia2007 New DelhiJan-03-2013Feb-23-2013----
jaz0020 Ottawa Jan-31-2013-----
mani_7835 Ottawa - -----
blok45 Vienna Dec-31-2012-----
snowyz Ottawa Jan-03-2012-----
gfairc Kingston Jan-28-2013-----
suchnaju - Dec-27-2012-----
shahid_iet Ottawa Dec-27-2012-----
nalamj New DelhiJan-14-2013Feb-27-2013----
bsingh Ottawa Feb-02-2013------
VIJAY10302 New DelhiFeb-12-2013Mar-02-2013----
dbss Ottawa Jan-28-2013-----
saqib.ali Ottawa Feb-04-2013-----
amdee Ottawa Feb-05-2013-----
katyyy Ottawa - -----
ta2 Ottawa Feb-28-2013-----
itsmyid Ottawa Feb-27-2013-----
ghatot201 Ottawa Mar-08-2013-----

Table 3 ; E-CAS

NameVOContact from CICLostRestoredStatus changedLineNote
eshotel New DelhiPER:Oct-23-2012
AOR:Nov-08-2012
Feb-04-2013Feb-20-2013noNDVO start reviewed on 27 Feb-
rhen ongsico Manila PER:Nov-08-2012
- - - Apprication received on 22 Aug-
Thedippaar Ottawa PER:Oct-29-2012
- - - Apprication received on 23 Aug-
gpranav New DelhiPER:Oct-31-2012
Feb-06-2013Feb-18-2013no--
mysteaka Ottawa PER:Nov-05-2012
Feb-08-2013Feb-20-2013noApprication received on 4 Sep-
hithere Ottawa PER:Nov-06-2012
Feb-09-2013Feb-17-2013noApprication received on 5 Sep-
prempatel1986 New DelhiPER:Nov-06-2012
AOR:Dec-10-2012
- - noApprication received on 5 Sep-
Doni Vienna PER:Nov-15-2012
AOR:Dec-05-2012
Feb-07-2013Feb-18-2013noApprication received on 18 Sep-
ds3010 Ottawa PER:Jan-22-2013
- - - Apprication received on 17 Sep-
ainda - -
- - - --
neha_arora1985 New DelhiPER:Nov-19-2012
AOR:Feb-23-2013
- - - Apprication received on 24 Sep
NDVO start reviewed on 04 Mar
-
jibinseb Ottawa PER:Nov-15-2012
- - - --
vik81 Ottawa PER:Nov-19-2012
- - - --
volors - PER:Nov-27-2012
- - - --
shanindia2007 New DelhiPER:Jan-03-2013
AOR:Feb-23-2013
- - - Apprication received on 6 Nov-
jaz0020 Ottawa PER:Jan-31-2013
Feb-06-2013Feb-12-2013noApprication received on 17 OctInformation that CIC gave
mani_7835 Ottawa -
- - - --
blok45 Vienna PER:Dec-31-2012
- - - Apprication received on 29 Oct-
snowyz Ottawa PER:Jan-03-2012
- - - In Process-
gfairc Kingston PER:Jan-28-2013
- - - --
suchnaju - PER:Dec-27-2012
- - - Apprication received on 5 Nov-
shahid_iet Ottawa PER:Dec-27-2012
- - - Apprication received on 5 Nov-
nalamj New DelhiPER:Jan-14-2013
AOR:Feb-27-2013
- - - Apprication received on 24 Nov-
bsingh Ottawa PER:Feb-02-2013
Feb-04-2013Feb-10-2013no--
VIJAY10302 New DelhiPER:Feb-12-2013
- - - --
dbss Ottawa PER:Jan-28-2013
Feb-07-2013Feb-10-2013noApprication received on 29 Nov-
saqib.ali Ottawa PER:Feb-04-2013
- - - --
amdee Ottawa PER:Feb-05-2013
Feb-08-2013Feb-10-2013noApprication received on 14 Dec-
katyyy Ottawa -
- - - --
ta2 Ottawa PER:Feb-28-2013
- - - --
itsmyid Ottawa PER:Feb-27-2013
- - - --
ghatot201 Ottawa PER:Mar-08-2013
- - - --
fukirua Ottawa PER:May-18-2012
Feb-05-2013Feb-18-2013noAppricatgion ReceivedMI3/MI4http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/mi/index.asp#mi3http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/mi/index.asp#mi3
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/mi/index.asp#mi3


VO : Visa Office. For processing times, see [url=http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/perm/skilled-fed.asp]"Processing times for federal skilled worker applications" on CIC website
. CIC explained that "Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) calculates processing times from the day CIC receives an application to the day it makes a decision on the application.". More details can be shown in Help Centre on CIC.

PER : Positive Eligibility Review - An email which shows your file number and so on. It will be sent from CIO if your application passes the initial eligibility review. See the other thread titled "What is PER", a senior's website or this pic for more details.

AOR : Acknowledgment of Receipt - An email which informs that your full documents have been received by visa office and has been put in queue for processing. Sometimes this is called "2nd AOR" or "Waiting letter" ; In this case, "1st AOR" means "PER". See the other thread titled "what is 2nd AOR" for more details.
You can also see the 2nd AOR from Vienna Visa Office (Thanks Doni!)

MR : Medical Request - An email (or a regular mail) that requests you to take medical exams. It might be included in the Initial Assessment.

PPR : Passport Request or Confirmation of Permanent Residence - An email (or a regular mail) that requests you to send VO your passport. If you are a citizen of the countries or territories listed in CIC website, you probably receive a "Passport Request". If you are from the visitor visa exemptions country, you maybe receive a "Confirmation of Permanent Residence" instead of the passport request and then you can go landing directly and immediately.

Links : What happen after PER? - Helpful information by seniors though it's little old.