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Residential Obligation due to Covid

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,324
8,922
I think in my case I was probably banking more on that the compelling scenario due to covid would be considered. Thanks one and all.
Only you can decide of course. And it depends what you mean by 'considered' - if you were banking on all residency obligations being formally forgiven and announced and everyone gets PR cards renewed and some blanket two or three year forgiveness period for all travel at the ports of entry, you probably will be disappointed.

But: under law, cbsa/ircc - and the IAD on appeal - shall give consideration to factors like covid. So far there have not really been any [covid-related] residency obligation type cases to have gone through the appeals process (with published decisions).

Consider this: to be 'strict' on RO issues during covid, government lawyers would have to go to IAD on appeal and (hypothetically) argue that government imposed flight bans, govenrment-imposed isolation and quarantine regimes (paid in hotels at penalty of serious fines and/or requirement to stay in govt facilities), inter-provincial travel restrictions, "lockdowns" of various types, vaccine mandates, etc., are somehow not developments that are out of control of the PR and not worthy of humanitarian and compassionate consideration. (Not to mention things that were worsened under covid for many, like family emergencies, requirement to care for sick family members, concern about health impacts/exposure on the PRs themselves, increased deaths and hospitalizations worldwide, economic disruption and uncertainty, etc).

Even leaving aside all that: for approximately 18 months, government of Canada had effectively blaring warnings and banners in almost all international travel-related communications, veritably shouting "do not travel unless absolutely necessary and essential!" (That 'essential' term had parallels in govt orders-in-council). The appeals and review processes (and courts if it comes to it) would simply mock govt reps that attempted to deny that these are factors that must be taken into consideration.

And CBSA officers can reason backwards and understand well that pursuing a large volume of reports for those that have a well-founded argument about covid restricting their ability to comply with the RO is a waste of time and resources.

Now, there are clearly going to be cases where 'because covid!' is not going to be sufficient. Someone out-of-Canada for 10 years cannot plausibly claim that this is all due to covid. (Although it could be a factor for part of that time)

Anecdotal info here from those returning out of compliance is that there are few being reported overall, and very few whose non-compliance is relatively short and overlaps with period of covid (like yours). Possibly none reported here.

Even those returning with valid PR cards in first five years and much more out of compliance than you (i.e. very little time in Canada during validity of new PR card) get through without being reported - one this reported being "grilled" at secondary (asked a lot of questions) and then being let in without being reported, basically nothing more than a warning.

But: that's not a guarantee and we cannot say; even discussion of 'probabilities' is bounded by the fact that ultimately it matters what happens in your case and not how good or bad your ex ante 'chances' are.

Govt could attempt to be more strict within current law - but would still be bound by current appeals procedures. Govt could change the law to be more strict - but zero indication it has any such intention (and clearly at odds with current immigration targets anyway), nor that there is some groundswell of "be harder on PRs" policy preference from any of the opposition parties (those in parliament, anyway). No-one has any appetite to tackle this particular issue and make major changes (either way) and so the relatively lenient but sometimes burdensome current regime will likely continue.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,324
8,922
BTW I thought this link might be useful:
https://irb.gc.ca/en/transparency/pac-binder-nov-2020/Pages/pac5c.aspx

It's the IAD description of appeals under the residency obligation part (i.e. what happens after the formal reporting).

Some tidbits I found interesting:
-there's both a factual / legal aspect (the residency obligation determination by ircc/cbsa being not valid) and the request that IAD should "exercise its discretionary humanitarian and compassionate (H&C) jurisdiction in favour of the appellant".

-there's a list of factors to be considered in H&C considerations, one of which is the extremely broad "Reasons for continued or lengthy stay abroad."

Personally I'd guess that there is close to nil chance that the IAD would not consider covid-related reasons for absence from Canada as significant and real. That still does not mean a 'blanket forgiveness' of course.

The other factors are also worth reading.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
3,183
Well a majority of you have advised me on my chances. It still looks like an uphill task at 46 to take these risks without a job. I think in my case I was probably banking more on that the compelling scenario due to covid would be considered. Thanks one and all.
Responsible observers here tend to avoid quantifying probabilities for being Reported at the Port-of-Entry. This is in large part due to what is unknown about border officials current attitudes and approaches, generally let alone the particular officers the traveler actually encounters. But a huge part of this is also because there is such wide variation in the individual factors that can influence how things go.

But the "RISK" itself is not just about the probability of being Reported (and if Reported, the probability of nonetheless succeeding in an appeal), it is about what is at stake. You are right to frame your thinking, and decision-making, with consideration for what the impact will be, considering as well as the difficulties likely encountered trying to establish a life in Canada.

The impact of covid must be considered in the consideration of H&C reasons during a RO compliance examination, and will be considered and will most likely be a significant factor. How "compelling" it will be considered is difficult to forecast. A big factor in this, one can reasonably surmise, is that it is likely to be a sliding, less compelling factor going forward. "Time is of the essence" one might say, and "reasonable performance" matters (to borrow language used in contract law). Which is probably too vague for many, but nonetheless illustrative.

Leading to . . . I will quote some of what @armoured observed above because I think it helps illustrate the context and scope for the RO compliance related examination and is worth repeating:
Note that I've referred to 'leniency' whereas properly stated it would require some detailed discussion of terminology and the law and what humanitarian and compassionate considerations are and what they're for, as well as other capacity/discretion to not strictly enforce what regulations are in play. It's just easier to say leniency - but not necessarily accurate in that the discretion exercised by officials is to some degree mandated by law (they must take some factors into consideration, even if the law doesn't say they must waive enforcement) with some right of appeal/review by a quasi-independent body. There is a process, not just dictated outcomes. The point being, it's not just the border agent being 'nice' or generous, the law requires them to consider these things (and being human they will take into consideration what happens and chance of success afterwards and the amount of work required, etc), and I'm just being lazy by putting it all under the loose term leniency.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,701
13,555
Many thanks on your views. My intention was to migrate permanently in early 2020 was genuine. The COVID-19 disrupted 1.5 years. With flights banned, repatriation flights getting booked at exorbitant rates, with family issues and no family, friends or a job in Canada it was very hard for me to take the risk during the pandemic. I appreciate your suggestions on advising me to get back early. I would like to know if there is a particular POE that is lenient in this regard? I just wonder why the immigration doesn't acknowledge the issue and come out with a statement on this. I believe a few other countries (Australia) are more relaxed on the RO due to the pandemic. Lastly how does one get to know if he /she gets reported and do I need to state the above facts that prevented me at the POE?
Thanks and regards.
Looks like you got PR through PNP so you should be landing in that province as your final destination. Are you in Australia? Thought that you had to petition to be able to leave Australia but it was much easier to leave than get a spot to return to Australia. Until you are compliant with your RO you won’t be able sponsor anyone.
 

meghashyam75

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
93
3
Looks like you got PR through PNP so you should be landing in that province as your final destination. Are you in Australia? Thought that you had to petition to be able to leave Australia but it was much easier to leave than get a spot to return to Australia. Until you are compliant with your RO you won’t be able sponsor anyone.
No I got my PR through express entry Federal Skilled worker program not PNP. I have lived in Australia for sometime and a few of my friends who were still there told me that they were considering covid related for RO. Again I appreciate your comments. It is what it is and I plan to return soon as that's the best answer anyone can give at this moment. Thanks
 

meghashyam75

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
93
3
Only you can decide of course. And it depends what you mean by 'considered' - if you were banking on all residency obligations being formally forgiven and announced and everyone gets PR cards renewed and some blanket two or three year forgiveness period for all travel at the ports of entry, you probably will be disappointed.

But: under law, cbsa/ircc - and the IAD on appeal - shall give consideration to factors like covid. So far there have not really been any residency obligation type cases to have gone through the appeals process (with published decisions).

Consider this: to be 'strict' on RO issues during covid, government lawyers would have to go to IAD on appeal and (hypothetically) argue that government imposed flight bans, govenrment-imposed isolation and quarantine regimes (paid in hotels at penalty of serious fines and/or requirement to stay in govt facilities), inter-provincial travel restrictions, "lockdowns" of various types, vaccine mandates, etc., are somehow not developments that are out of control of the PR and not worthy of humanitarian and compassionate consideration. (Not to mention things that were worsened under covid for many, like family emergencies, requirement to care for sick family members, concern about health impacts/exposure on the PRs themselves, increased deaths and hospitalizations worldwide, economic disruption and uncertainty, etc).

Even leaving aside all that: for approximately 18 months, government of Canada had effectively blaring warnings and banners in almost all international travel-related communications, veritably shouting "do not travel unless absolutely necessary and essential!" (That 'essential' term had parallels in govt orders-in-council). The appeals and review processes (and courts if it comes to it) would simply mock govt reps that attempted to deny that these are factors that must be taken into consideration.

And CBSA officers can reason backwards and understand well that pursuing a large volume of reports for those that have a well-founded argument about covid restricting their ability to comply with the RO is a waste of time and resources.

Now, there are clearly going to be cases where 'because covid!' is not going to be sufficient. Someone out-of-Canada for 10 years cannot plausibly claim that this is all due to covid. (Although it could be a factor for part of that time)

Anecdotal info here from those returning out of compliance is that there are few being reported overall, and very few whose non-compliance is relatively short and overlaps with period of covid (like yours). Possibly none reported here.

Even those returning with valid PR cards in first five years and much more out of compliance than you (i.e. very little time in Canada during validity of new PR card) get through without being reported - one this reported being "grilled" at secondary (asked a lot of questions) and then being let in without being reported, basically nothing more than a warning.

But: that's not a guarantee and we cannot say; even discussion of 'probabilities' is bounded by the fact that ultimately it matters what happens in your case and not how good or bad your ex ante 'chances' are.

Govt could attempt to be more strict within current law - but would still be bound by current appeals procedures. Govt could change the law to be more strict - but zero indication it has any such intention (and clearly at odds with current immigration targets anyway), nor that there is some groundswell of "be harder on PRs" policy preference from any of the opposition parties (those in parliament, anyway). No-one has any appetite to tackle this particular issue and make major changes (either way) and so the relatively lenient but sometimes burdensome current regime will likely continue.
Thanks a lot!
 

meghashyam75

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
93
3
BTW I thought this link might be useful:
https://irb.gc.ca/en/transparency/pac-binder-nov-2020/Pages/pac5c.aspx

It's the IAD description of appeals under the residency obligation part (i.e. what happens after the formal reporting).

Some tidbits I found interesting:
-there's both a factual / legal aspect (the residency obligation determination by ircc/cbsa being not valid) and the request that IAD should "exercise its discretionary humanitarian and compassionate (H&C) jurisdiction in favour of the appellant".

-there's a list of factors to be considered in H&C considerations, one of which is the extremely broad "Reasons for continued or lengthy stay abroad."

Personally I'd guess that there is close to nil chance that the IAD would not consider covid-related reasons for absence from Canada as significant and real. That still does not mean a 'blanket forgiveness' of course.

The other factors are also worth reading.
Thanks a lot for your suggestions
 

meghashyam75

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
93
3
Only you can decide of course. And it depends what you mean by 'considered' - if you were banking on all residency obligations being formally forgiven and announced and everyone gets PR cards renewed and some blanket two or three year forgiveness period for all travel at the ports of entry, you probably will be disappointed.

But: under law, cbsa/ircc - and the IAD on appeal - shall give consideration to factors like covid. So far there have not really been any [covid-related] residency obligation type cases to have gone through the appeals process (with published decisions).

Consider this: to be 'strict' on RO issues during covid, government lawyers would have to go to IAD on appeal and (hypothetically) argue that government imposed flight bans, govenrment-imposed isolation and quarantine regimes (paid in hotels at penalty of serious fines and/or requirement to stay in govt facilities), inter-provincial travel restrictions, "lockdowns" of various types, vaccine mandates, etc., are somehow not developments that are out of control of the PR and not worthy of humanitarian and compassionate consideration. (Not to mention things that were worsened under covid for many, like family emergencies, requirement to care for sick family members, concern about health impacts/exposure on the PRs themselves, increased deaths and hospitalizations worldwide, economic disruption and uncertainty, etc).

Even leaving aside all that: for approximately 18 months, government of Canada had effectively blaring warnings and banners in almost all international travel-related communications, veritably shouting "do not travel unless absolutely necessary and essential!" (That 'essential' term had parallels in govt orders-in-council). The appeals and review processes (and courts if it comes to it) would simply mock govt reps that attempted to deny that these are factors that must be taken into consideration.

And CBSA officers can reason backwards and understand well that pursuing a large volume of reports for those that have a well-founded argument about covid restricting their ability to comply with the RO is a waste of time and resources.

Now, there are clearly going to be cases where 'because covid!' is not going to be sufficient. Someone out-of-Canada for 10 years cannot plausibly claim that this is all due to covid. (Although it could be a factor for part of that time)

Anecdotal info here from those returning out of compliance is that there are few being reported overall, and very few whose non-compliance is relatively short and overlaps with period of covid (like yours). Possibly none reported here.

Even those returning with valid PR cards in first five years and much more out of compliance than you (i.e. very little time in Canada during validity of new PR card) get through without being reported - one this reported being "grilled" at secondary (asked a lot of questions) and then being let in without being reported, basically nothing more than a warning.

But: that's not a guarantee and we cannot say; even discussion of 'probabilities' is bounded by the fact that ultimately it matters what happens in your case and not how good or bad your ex ante 'chances' are.

Govt could attempt to be more strict within current law - but would still be bound by current appeals procedures. Govt could change the law to be more strict - but zero indication it has any such intention (and clearly at odds with current immigration targets anyway), nor that there is some groundswell of "be harder on PRs" policy preference from any of the opposition parties (those in parliament, anyway). No-one has any appetite to tackle this particular issue and make major changes (either way) and so the relatively lenient but sometimes burdensome current regime will likely continue.
Thanks a lot for your suggestions.