+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Residency obligations not met - need to apply pr for son

sat8979

Star Member
Jul 6, 2017
66
37
I'm a Canadian PR currently living overseas. We (wife and son) are coming back to Canada to live permanently by end of next month. We have now realised that we won't be able to fulfill the residency obligation of being in Canada for 730 days.

We are willing to take the risk of being reported and come anyway to be closer to my parents who are currently living in Canada and made it their home.

The problem is me and my wife have a PR, but our son was born overseas in Australlia and he doesn't have a Canadian PR. He rather holds a Australian passport which allows visa free travel to Canada.

Let's say CBSA has allowed us to enter Canada, but I think it is best to apply for PR for our son as soon as we enter Canada. This would mean that our eligibility will be scrutinized officially and they would start a removal process?

What is the best thing we should do? Should we just apply for his PR and appeal against the removal order under H&C - or is there any other way we can get away with it - e.g, IRCC doesn't check parents eligibility for dependent PR application etc or perhaps apply for sons PR after only after fulfilling our PR obligations and maintain him on visa free status of being an Australian?

Many thanks for your time and help.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
18,515
9,743
How short of the 730 days are you? When were you last in Canada?

I believe the short answer is that applying before you are in compliance means at best that it will not proceed and you will not save any time compared to waiting. At best.

So may as well wait. Visa can be extended without problems. For health care etc depends on province.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sat8979

Tubsmagee

Hero Member
Jul 2, 2016
439
131
I'm a Canadian PR currently living overseas. We (wife and son) are coming back to Canada to live permanently by end of next month. We have now realised that we won't be able to fulfill the residency obligation of being in Canada for 730 days.

We are willing to take the risk of being reported and come anyway to be closer to my parents who are currently living in Canada and made it their home.

The problem is me and my wife have a PR, but our son was born overseas in Australlia and he doesn't have a Canadian PR. He rather holds a Australian passport which allows visa free travel to Canada.

Let's say CBSA has allowed us to enter Canada, but I think it is best to apply for PR for our son as soon as we enter Canada. This would mean that our eligibility will be scrutinized officially and they would start a removal process?

What is the best thing we should do? Should we just apply for his PR and appeal against the removal order under H&C - or is there any other way we can get away with it - e.g, IRCC doesn't check parents eligibility for dependent PR application etc or perhaps apply for sons PR after only after fulfilling our PR obligations and maintain him on visa free status of being an Australian?
How far out of compliance are you? Or another way, when did you first get PR status (land) and how many days in Canada do you have within the last 5 years?

You are going to need to wait until one or both of you are in compliance before applying for your son’s PR status, which may make it difficult for health and schooling.
 
Last edited:

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
I'm a Canadian PR currently living overseas. We (wife and son) are coming back to Canada to live permanently by end of next month. We have now realised that we won't be able to fulfill the residency obligation of being in Canada for 730 days.

We are willing to take the risk of being reported and come anyway to be closer to my parents who are currently living in Canada and made it their home.

The problem is me and my wife have a PR, but our son was born overseas in Australlia and he doesn't have a Canadian PR. He rather holds a Australian passport which allows visa free travel to Canada.

Let's say CBSA has allowed us to enter Canada, but I think it is best to apply for PR for our son as soon as we enter Canada. This would mean that our eligibility will be scrutinized officially and they would start a removal process?

What is the best thing we should do? Should we just apply for his PR and appeal against the removal order under H&C - or is there any other way we can get away with it - e.g, IRCC doesn't check parents eligibility for dependent PR application etc or perhaps apply for sons PR after only after fulfilling our PR obligations and maintain him on visa free status of being an Australian?

Many thanks for your time and help.
If you have grounds (acceptable to CIC) to apply for H&C, then simplest thing would be to apply for his sponsorship and overcome any breach of RO charges. I don't think anyone in this forum is fit to give an analysis of what is valid H&C grounds, and evidence shared on this board is anecdotal at best. But you can do your own, independent, search into IAD decisions and kind of catch the pattern. You will see what kind of excuses are rejected off the bat, and which ones are accepted. Generally speaking, the hardship you show must be beyond mere inconvenience (separation of family members is NOT a hardship on its own, a lot of military families endure it) and the reasons for breach of RO must be beyond your control (you must prove that you had no choice but to stay out of Canada). It's a high bar to meet, so whenever someone who spent years out of Canada asks about options to return, the assumption is made that you have no H&C grounds to get any waivers, and the subsequent advise is based on that initial assumption.

I don't know what your circumstances are. If you believe you have strong H&C case, you may try it. But assuming that you don't, the last thing you would want to do is apply for PR sponsorship or any kind of immigration benefit which would trigger your removal proceedings after your successful crossing of the border. Whether you will be successful in crossing the border and not being reported is another question.
Under the assumption that you have no H&C grounds, your best bet after crossing the border is to stay put and NOT apply for any immigration benefit at all. Get in full compliance first. And then feel free to get your PR card, sponsor your son and etc. Your son can come and visit you as a non-immigrant while you wait out 2 years to comply with RO. He can stay with you up to 180 days per year (please check to verify, this is just what I recall), but should be careful to stay off the radars, to avoid jeopardizing his chances for PR once you can sponsor him.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sat8979

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
58,272
14,356
I'm a Canadian PR currently living overseas. We (wife and son) are coming back to Canada to live permanently by end of next month. We have now realised that we won't be able to fulfill the residency obligation of being in Canada for 730 days.

We are willing to take the risk of being reported and come anyway to be closer to my parents who are currently living in Canada and made it their home.

The problem is me and my wife have a PR, but our son was born overseas in Australlia and he doesn't have a Canadian PR. He rather holds a Australian passport which allows visa free travel to Canada.

Let's say CBSA has allowed us to enter Canada, but I think it is best to apply for PR for our son as soon as we enter Canada. This would mean that our eligibility will be scrutinized officially and they would start a removal process?

What is the best thing we should do? Should we just apply for his PR and appeal against the removal order under H&C - or is there any other way we can get away with it - e.g, IRCC doesn't check parents eligibility for dependent PR application etc or perhaps apply for sons PR after only after fulfilling our PR obligations and maintain him on visa free status of being an Australian?

Many thanks for your time and help.
You must be compliant with your RO to sponsor your child. In almost all provinces your child will not qualify for health coverage for at least 2-3 years
 
  • Like
Reactions: sat8979

sat8979

Star Member
Jul 6, 2017
66
37
If you have grounds (acceptable to CIC) to apply for H&C, then simplest thing would be to apply for his sponsorship and overcome any breach of RO charges. I don't think anyone in this forum is fit to give an analysis of what is valid H&C grounds, and evidence shared on this board is anecdotal at best. But you can do your own, independent, search into IAD decisions and kind of catch the pattern. You will see what kind of excuses are rejected off the bat, and which ones are accepted. Generally speaking, the hardship you show must be beyond mere inconvenience (separation of family members is NOT a hardship on its own, a lot of military families endure it) and the reasons for breach of RO must be beyond your control (you must prove that you had no choice but to stay out of Canada). It's a high bar to meet, so whenever someone who spent years out of Canada asks about options to return, the assumption is made that you have no H&C grounds to get any waivers, and the subsequent advise is based on that initial assumption.

I don't know what your circumstances are. If you believe you have strong H&C case, you may try it. But assuming that you don't, the last thing you would want to do is apply for PR sponsorship or any kind of immigration benefit which would trigger your removal proceedings after your successful crossing of the border. Whether you will be successful in crossing the border and not being reported is another question.
Under the assumption that you have no H&C grounds, your best bet after crossing the border is to stay put and NOT apply for any immigration benefit at all. Get in full compliance first. And then feel free to get your PR card, sponsor your son and etc. Your son can come and visit you as a non-immigrant while you wait out 2 years to comply with RO. He can stay with you up to 180 days per year (please check to verify, this is just what I recall), but should be careful to stay off the radars, to avoid jeopardizing his chances for PR once you can sponsor him.

Good luck.
Thanks so much all @jakklondon @armoured @Tubsmagee @canuck78

I think I do have a strong H&C case - but again that is my belief and there exists some degree of uncertainty. Me being the principal applicant - I'm short of approx. 220 days including the time I'll be spending in future before my 5 years expire. I was last in Canada just before Covid - Jan 2019.

Key points:
* I have to be compliant with RO before I apply for my son's PR
* Health coverage would be an issue - but I presume that can be covered by taking a health insurance.
* Schooling would be an issue - he is now only 2.5 years old - so not a problem
* Yes, I checked on how long he can stay using an eTA - with a visa free travel he can stay for 6 months in one go even though they get 5 year valid eTA. Not sure what to do after 6 months though.

Considering all the above I think best to wait until we become RO compliant.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jakklondon

Samrao100

Full Member
Mar 13, 2022
43
8
Thanks so much all @jakklondon @armoured @Tubsmagee @canuck78

I think I do have a strong H&C case - but again that is my belief and there exists some degree of uncertainty. Me being the principal applicant - I'm short of approx. 220 days including the time I'll be spending in future before my 5 years expire. I was last in Canada just before Covid - Jan 2019.

Key points:
* I have to be compliant with RO before I apply for my son's PR
* Health coverage would be an issue - but I presume that can be covered by taking a health insurance.
* Schooling would be an issue - he is now only 2.5 years old - so not a problem
* Yes, I checked on how long he can stay using an eTA - with a visa free travel he can stay for 6 months in one go even though they get 5 year valid eTA. Not sure what to do after 6 months though.

Considering all the above I think best to wait until we become RO compliant.
Yes, & since I've been working out the days of RO for myself often: I'm looking at ... 1 year plus bfor u are back in Compliance..

Assuming you live here in Canada from April 22 to Apr '23, that's 365 days. Add to that days from Apr 18 to Jan 19 when u were last in Canada ie 10 months or 300 days, (am looking at PR card expiry on Apr '23 end) that works out to 665 days, still 2 months more needed to be in Compliance & THEN apply for renewal which would be June '23.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
18,515
9,743
* Health coverage would be an issue - but I presume that can be covered by taking a health insurance.
* Schooling would be an issue - he is now only 2.5 years old - so not a problem
* Yes, I checked on how long he can stay using an eTA - with a visa free travel he can stay for 6 months in one go even though they get 5 year valid eTA. Not sure what to do after 6 months though.
-Check carefully on health insurance.
-Schools: again, provincial/local - more likelihood of 'leniency' on this given interest of child.
-You can apply to extend the visit period (some time before the expiry). Don't know experiences of others with renewing as many times as you may need to.
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
Thanks so much all @jakklondon @armoured @Tubsmagee @canuck78

I think I do have a strong H&C case - but again that is my belief and there exists some degree of uncertainty. Me being the principal applicant - I'm short of approx. 220 days including the time I'll be spending in future before my 5 years expire. I was last in Canada just before Covid - Jan 2019.

Key points:
* I have to be compliant with RO before I apply for my son's PR
* Health coverage would be an issue - but I presume that can be covered by taking a health insurance.
* Schooling would be an issue - he is now only 2.5 years old - so not a problem
* Yes, I checked on how long he can stay using an eTA - with a visa free travel he can stay for 6 months in one go even though they get 5 year valid eTA. Not sure what to do after 6 months though.

Considering all the above I think best to wait until we become RO compliant.
You are welcome, @sat8979

I was last in Canada just before Covid - Jan 2019.
Pandemic started in North America around March 2020. I know there was a period of time where people couldn't travel, due to force majeure restrictions.
You would most likely get a waiver/lenience for such period of time on the account of COVID/pandemic. However, you would still have to explain why you were out of Canada between 01/2019 and 03/2020. And why didn't you return as soon as borders reopened. Do you have a strong H&C claim to cover those periods outside of pandemic related shutdown?

* I have to be compliant with RO before I apply for my son's PR
This is correct, unless you apply for waiver on H&C grounds and prevail.

* Health coverage would be an issue - but I presume that can be covered by taking a health insurance.
You can. Also, depending on your family income, if you can't afford private insurance but your son needs urgent medical care, you can take him to nearest hospital where he will receive all necessary medical care (regardless of his insurance status). If you can afford to pay for it, you will have to (or else, you will be sued and forced to pay). But if you don't have assets/income, then nothing would be collected from you.

* Schooling would be an issue - he is now only 2.5 years old - so not a problem
Correct. If you move to Canada now, you should be RO compliant before he turns 5 years old. If you don't, he may still qualify for public schooling (I know in US he would, but not sure if you have similar law in Canada).

* Yes, I checked on how long he can stay using an eTA - with a visa free travel he can stay for 6 months in one go even though they get 5 year valid eTA. Not sure what to do after 6 months though.
Not much you can do. 5 year validity of eTA is for admission into Canada. 6 months is the time limit on staying in Canada once he enters under visa waiver or tourist visa. You may have to arrange for him to leave Canada when validity of his status expires and come back next year, until you can sponsor him for PR. One thing you should look for is how Canadian law treats minors. In the US overstaying non-immigrant visa for 180 to 365 days can trigger 3 years to 10 years ban on getting PR status under most categories. But the bans don't apply to minors under 18. See if minors have similar protections in Canada.

Considering all the above I think best to wait until we become RO compliant.
To the contrary, if you have strong H&C grounds then you should try to overcome RO breach right away. But , make sure you have H&C grounds that are accepted by CIC. A lot of times we use our personal standard of hardship and assume that if something is causing us great deal of pain and difficulty, then it must be a universally recognized hardship. What you need to do instead is read the case law, find multiple IAD decisions involving H&C cases and notice the pattern of reasons which were accepted as valid for H&C purposes. If you really have a strong H&C case there is no reason to wait 2 years to get compliant with RO.
 
Last edited:

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
58,272
14,356
You are welcome, @sat8979



Pandemic started in North America around March 2020. I know there was a period of time where people couldn't travel, due to force majeure restrictions.
You would most likely get a waiver/lenience for such period of time on the account of COVID/pandemic. However, you would still have to explain why you were out of Canada between 01/2019 and 03/2020. And why didn't you return as soon as borders reopened. Do you have a strong H&C claim to cover those periods outside of pandemic related shutdown?



This is correct, unless you apply for waiver on H&C grounds and prevail.



You can. Also, depending on your family income, if you can't afford private insurance but your son needs urgent medical care, you can take him to nearest hospital where he will receive all necessary medical care (regardless of his insurance status). If you can afford to pay for it, you will have to (or else, you will be sued and forced to pay). But if you don't have assets/income, then nothing would be collected from you.



Correct. If you move to Canada now, you should be RO compliant before he turns 5 years old. If you don't, he may still qualify for public schooling (I know in US he would, but not sure if you have similar law in Canada).



Not much you can do. 5 year validity of eTA is for admission into Canada. 6 months is the time limit on staying in Canada once he enters under visa waiver or tourist visa. You may have to arrange for him to leave Canada when validity of his status expires and come back next year, until you can sponsor him for PR. One thing you should look for is how Canadian law treats minors. In the US overstaying non-immigrant visa for 180 to 365 days can trigger 3 years to 10 years ban on getting PR status under most categories. But the bans don't apply to minors under 18. See if minors have similar protections in Canada.



To the contrary, if you have strong H&C grounds then you should try to overcome RO breach right away. But , make sure you have H&C grounds that are accepted by CIC. A lot of times we use our personal standard of hardship and assume that if something is causing us great deal of pain and difficulty, then it must be a universally recognized hardship. What you need to do instead is read the case law, find multiple IAD decisions involving H&C cases and notice the pattern of reasons which were accepted as valid for H&C purposes. If you really have a strong H&C case there is no reason to wait 2 years to get compliant with RO.
If you receive energency care as a visitor with parents who are PRs you will be put on a payment plan. The hospital/taxpaxers won't absorb the costs. Best to purchase emergency travel medical insurance coveraege medical expenses.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
58,272
14,356
Thanks so much all @jakklondon @armoured @Tubsmagee @canuck78

I think I do have a strong H&C case - but again that is my belief and there exists some degree of uncertainty. Me being the principal applicant - I'm short of approx. 220 days including the time I'll be spending in future before my 5 years expire. I was last in Canada just before Covid - Jan 2019.

Key points:
* I have to be compliant with RO before I apply for my son's PR
* Health coverage would be an issue - but I presume that can be covered by taking a health insurance.
* Schooling would be an issue - he is now only 2.5 years old - so not a problem
* Yes, I checked on how long he can stay using an eTA - with a visa free travel he can stay for 6 months in one go even though they get 5 year valid eTA. Not sure what to do after 6 months though.

Considering all the above I think best to wait until we become RO compliant.
How much time have you spent in Canada after you landed? Had you lived in Canada a long time before getting PR? If you have had a long histiry living in Canada that would be helpful.
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
If you receive energency care as a visitor with parents who are PRs you will be put on a payment plan. The hospital/taxpaxers won't absorb the costs. Best to purchase emergency travel medical insurance coveraege medical expenses.
I think you don't understand the concept of emergency care in Canada. Let me explain: first of all, everyone gets emergency care, regardless of financial status or insurance. Once care is rendered, there is a bill that says you owe X amount of dollars. As I told poster above, if he has means to pay for it he will have to pay it. However, guess what will happen if he has no means to pay for it? Evens if he s sued, he will pay nothing, as long as he has no assets and funds to pay. Simple as that. And, I am sure, his son who is only 2.5 years old won't even be sued. 2.5 years old are not legally responsible for the cost of treatment they have received. Let me know if this is not clear enough, I will try to explain one more time, in even simpler terms.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,505
3,275
We have now realised that we won't be able to fulfill the residency obligation of being in Canada for 730 days.
It is very difficult to forecast how things will go upon arrival in Canada. A lot depends on your specific circumstances. It appears you have been a PR for at least nearly four years, but not much more than that, so there is a fair chance, so far as can be discerned based on sporadic anecdotal reporting, you will be waived through upon your arrival here, that is to say, not be what is typically referred to as "Reported" when you arrive.

But how that goes can vary, and how it actually goes will determine your options and be a big factor to consider in what decisions you make going forward.

It bears noting with some emphasis that since you were last in Canada more than three years ago, you not only are unable to fulfill the PR Residency Obligation, you are currently in breach of the RO, which meets the definition of what makes a PR "inadmissible." Moreover, the three plus years absence makes it rather obvious to border officials that you have breached the RO.

There is thus also a fair chance you might NOT be "waived" through upon your arrival here, but rather subject to a formal RO compliance examination and following the preparation of a 44(1) Report for inadmissibility, due to a breach of the RO, issued a Removal or Departure Order, which is a decision terminating PR status (subject to appeal).

Even though "inadmissible," you will be allowed into Canada; question is whether or not you are Reported and issued a Removal Order. If that happens you still get to enter Canada and can appeal the Report and Removal Order.

Thus, in regards to . . .

Key points:
* I have to be compliant with RO before I apply for my son's PR
* Health coverage would be an issue - but I presume that can be covered by taking a health insurance.
* Schooling would be an issue - he is now only 2.5 years old - so not a problem
* Yes, I checked on how long he can stay using an eTA - with a visa free travel he can stay for 6 months in one go even though they get 5 year valid eTA. Not sure what to do after 6 months though.

Considering all the above I think best to wait until we become RO compliant.
While you stated upfront "We are willing to take the risk of being reported and come anyway . . . " it bears noting with emphasis that the overriding key is how it goes at the PoE upon your arrival. Whether or not you encounter a more formal RO compliance examination could make a big difference, all the difference.

Something which tends to get glossed over in this forum is the difference between being casually waived into Canada without a formal RO compliance examination, despite being in breach of the RO, versus how it goes if there is a formal RO compliance examination.

If casually waived through, you are good to stay. When to make the sponsored PR visa application for your child is a matter you can evaluate AFTER arrival, after seeing how it goes at the PoE, recognizing that the safest approach is to wait until you are in compliance with the RO before making that application.

Since you still have valid PR cards, that makes the transition to living in Canada, and staying, relatively easy. Health care for the child could be an issue if there are serious health care issues, but otherwise there is no compelling reason to apply for the child's PR without waiting to get into RO compliance. That is, if you are waived into Canada without being Reported, probably better to wait to sponsor the child's PR rather than press your luck relying on H&C relief if the sponsorship application triggered a RO compliance examination.

Note/Caution: H&C cases are generally difficult cases. Setting aside what appears to be current border control leniency, in significant part most likely related to informal (unwritten) pandemic policy which could end any day or not provide relief to a particular individual, it is not clear how much more lenient, if at all, CBSA or IRCC is when making a formal H&C case determination.

Best to avoid relying on H&C relief if that is at all practically feasible. That is, the strongest H&C case is never as secure as avoiding transactions with IRCC and CBSA until one is actually in compliance with the RO.

Sure, there are situations in which the H&C case is very strong and other circumstances more or less compel relying on the H&C case.

Indeed, this is in effect a key factor underlying a decision to return to Canada despite being inadmissible, anticipating the odds of being allowed to keep PR status despite breaching the RO are good enough to make the trip planning to stay here. A key circumstance underlying this is the lack of other options for keeping PR status. That is, you cannot avoid a transaction with CBSA (applying for entry into Canada by arriving at a PoE) if you want to keep PR status, so to have a chance of keeping PR status you need to come relying on H&C relief.

So, BE PREPARED to present your H&C case upon your arrival. If your H&C case depends on documents, be sure to carry those documents in your hands, not in checked baggage. No need to make an elaborate case, but be prepared to present the reasons why you were abroad so long and were unable to make the move to Canada sooner, and present what ties you currently have in Canada (immediate family, like parents, is a good positive factor).

BUT here's the rub, how it actually goes at the PoE can and likely will matter . . . getting back to the difference between being casually waived through versus undergoing a more thorough, formal RO compliance examination. The vast majority of anecdotal reporting about inadmissible PRs being allowed to enter Canada without being "Reported" appears to be about PRs casually waived through, many waived through at the PIL (Primary Inspection Line) with minimal RO related questions, the others allowed to proceed into Canada after some questioning, maybe an admonition about RO compliance, but not subjected to a formal RO determination.

The odds seem fairly good the latter is how it will go for you. NO guarantees however. Moreover, the extent to which this has been happening the last year plus is almost certainly related to a pattern of Covid-related leniency, a recognition that many PRs have remained abroad longer than planned due to Covid (not just due to government imposed travel restrictions, but also the difficulties involved in moving during the pandemic). This is NOT going to last. And there will be no notice there is a change in policy, largely because this leniency is probably not formal policy so there will be no formal change in policy when border officials are less lenient in screening arriving PRs who are inadmissible (that is, in breach of the RO).

The problem is the public, and those of us in this forum, will not see indications that border officials are trending back to more normal-times enforcement of RO compliance for PRs returning to Canada after lengthy absences, not until well after the fact, not until more than a few have run into stricter enforcement, enough so we begin to see some anecdotal reporting of this in the forum. It will take longer, a lot, lot longer for this to show up in official sources, like IAD decisions, since those tend to be many months if not a year or more later.

Very, very hard to forecast when this will happen. It may have already happened. Or at least, the scope of leniency may already be shrinking.

In any event, if you benefit from lenient screening or an otherwise positive pass at the PoE, THEN reassess whether and when to proceed with a sponsored PR application for the child, taking into consideration that if waiting is practical, it is almost always better to wait than proceed with an application that could trigger a RO compliance examination and relying on H&C relief.

NOTE: while posts by the jakkassistic American interloper, who clearly has no real experience or understanding of Canadian PR issues, are sometimes peppered with some good information, the good stuff is a front, a beard, and it is obviously all gleaned (stolen) from other posts here by knowledgeable veteran members of this forum, but often posted out of context or otherwise with little or no grasp for how things really work. The observations about emergency care, for example, are off the charts nonsense. Parents of a child receiving care will be liable for the costs. Those can be huge and financially crippling. Emergency care is limited in scope and does not include anywhere near all necessary medical care let alone preferred, what is better care. And so on. Best to ignore that source.
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
Couldn’t we pretend he didn’t write that he was an American?
I actually am, and very much pro-republic and willing to fight and defend the Constitution of the country that I am a citizen of. No need to pretend I am something other than who I am.