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reporting foreign income for tax

arctur

Full Member
Jun 23, 2018
23
0
to dpenabill :

so you're saying,
I can stay over 2 years from 5 in Canada, and still get my PR renewal rejected ?
why ? and for what reason ?

does it have anything to do with me not paying taxes in Canada ? I don't see the relation..

if I show proof that I stayed more than 2 years in canada, but didnt pay any taxes or have any ties in canada, IS THERE A CHANCE THAT MY RESIDENCY RENEWAL WILL BE REJECTED ?

I thought once you stay over 2 years, thats it..they MUST renew it for you, there is no IFs...
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,840
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to dpenabill :

so you're saying,
I can stay over 2 years from 5 in Canada, and still get my PR renewal rejected ?
why ? and for what reason ?

does it have anything to do with me not paying taxes in Canada ? I don't see the relation..

if I show proof that I stayed more than 2 years in canada, but didnt pay any taxes or have any ties in canada, IS THERE A CHANCE THAT MY RESIDENCY RENEWAL WILL BE REJECTED ?

I thought once you stay over 2 years, thats it..they MUST renew it for you, there is no IFs...
The short answer is yes, there's some chance.

The risk is that you won't be able to provide sufficient proof that you have in fact resided in Canada and met the residency obligation. If your application is sent for secondary review, you will need to provide further evidence to prove you were physically here all of those days. Simply showing entries and exits won't be enough since these records aren't always complete. You'll need to provide far more evidence - the kind of evidence you can typically only produce if you have actual ties to Canada. That's the risk.
 

arctur

Full Member
Jun 23, 2018
23
0
what if I worked in canada ( the 5 months every year im in Canada), I would get pay slips that would prove my stay in canada.
but I still wont make any ties, and I will stay less than 183 days.
will that be a better situation for me when I renew my pr card ?


and will that affect whether or not I pay taxes on my foreign income ?
(I know I will have to pay taxes on my Canadian income ).
 

devnill

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2015
256
43
Nobody can say for sure how CRA will assess your situation if you live/work in Canada (I think having a job in Canada would count as a significant tie). What is for sure is that you can only be tax resident in one country at a time.

Looks like Canada has tax treaties with a significant number of countries. This should help avoid double taxation on your foreign income.

https://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/in_force--eng.asp
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
to dpenabill :

so you're saying,
I can stay over 2 years from 5 in Canada, and still get my PR renewal rejected ?
why ? and for what reason ?

does it have anything to do with me not paying taxes in Canada ? I don't see the relation..

if I show proof that I stayed more than 2 years in canada, but didnt pay any taxes or have any ties in canada, IS THERE A CHANCE THAT MY RESIDENCY RENEWAL WILL BE REJECTED ?

I thought once you stay over 2 years, thats it..they MUST renew it for you, there is no IFs...
I concur in the observations offered by @scylla.

Proof of entry into Canada on a particular date directly proves ONLY that the PR was present in Canada that day; it does NOT directly prove the PR was present in Canada the next day, let alone a week later or a month later.

Many if not most conflate proof of presence and the INFERENCE of presence during the days between a known date of entry and the next known date of exit. The vast majority of the time, it is indeed INFERRED a PR was present in Canada during those in-between dates. If however there is any reason to question actual presence during those days, the PR can be required to PROVE presence (or, one might frame it in terms of proving there were no unreported exits or entries, but proof of a negative is profoundly evasive, at best . . . that is, the best proof of NOT going outside Canada during those in-between days is proof of actual presence in Canada those days).

You will not find any formal or official discussion about this inference. It is not spelled out in IAD or Federal Court decisions. To a significant extent, I suspect part of the reason for this is that this is NOT recognized as a formal inference as such EVEN THOUGH it is amply apparent the vast majority of PRs benefit from this inference, either in their PR card application or in a citizenship application.

The closest the official decisions come to articulating this inference is in statements about its contrary, in cases tending to involve an absence of the inference, where the IAD or Federal Court confirm that proof of entry and exit dates does NOT necessarily prove presence.

The reason the above is relevant to your scheme or plan is that by NOT following through with the intended purpose of the PR grant, that is by not settling and living in Canada permanently, that in conjunction with having spent more time outside Canada than in Canada, the situation is likely to invite significantly elevated scrutiny, perhaps outright skepticism if not suspicion, effectively REQUIRING IRCC (giving its mandate to use due diligence to enforce Canadian immigration law) to question and perhaps challenge your claims about meeting the PR Residency Obligation.

As I noted before, the fact that a PR spends more time outside Canada than in Canada supports an inference the PR was OUTSIDE Canada any day there is any question or doubt about. (No advanced degrees in mathematics or formal logic necessary to recognize that it is reasonable to infer someone was where they usually were if it is not otherwise documented where they were on any given day, and thus it is reasonable to infer a PR was outside Canada any such day if the PR was usually outside Canada.) How strictly or harshly IRCC will employ such an inference will undoubtedly depend on the particular case and IRCC's perception of the individual PR's credibility.

Caution: APPEARING to game the system (such as exploiting the very generous RO provisions to keep status notwithstanding not actually settling and living in Canada permanently) can be something which dramatically compromises IRCC's perception of the PR's credibility.

MOREOVER, APART FROM THE ABOVE, and perhaps posing the bigger RISKS, as a practical matter this scheme or plan is highly tenuous. Perhaps you have the means and intent and focus to actually follow through on all its elements, and can thereby skirt the practical and logistical risks and pitfalls. And perhaps you will indeed do this. The CAUTION is that in actual practice things tend to not go so smoothly. Scores and scores of others have pursued plans with significantly less risks than this one AND still crashed and burned . . . whether it is an illness or automobile accident, unexpected job demands, or family issues, there are scores and scores of real life contingencies which can and often do alter the course of life. And what might suffice as H&C reasons for some, thus allowing some leeway if real life contingencies cause the PR to fall short of compliance with the RO, those same H&C considerations are at risk for not being sufficient if the PR is recognized as someone who has not made a timely move to settle in Canada permanently.

That is: there is a RISK of failing to meet the burden of proof when the PR is cutting-it-close.

BUT, when the PR is cutting-it-close there are also very real risks of real life contingencies interfering with the plan. STUFF HAPPENS. Really. A lot more than many anticipate.



More Re residency for tax purposes:

what if I worked in canada ( the 5 months every year im in Canada), I would get pay slips that would prove my stay in canada.
but I still wont make any ties, and I will stay less than 183 days.
I disagree that it is "for sure" a person can only be a tax resident in one country at a time. This is USUALLY the case. BUT not necessarily always. It is far more likely so when there is a tax treaty with provisions which specifically provide that recognition of residency for tax purposes in one country supports the conclusion the individual is NOT a resident for tax purposes in the other country. BUT even this does NOT for-sure mean the individual cannot be deemed a resident for tax purposes by both countries. Each country has its own rules and laws governing who is a resident for tax purposes, and the respective agency in each country will determine if a particular individual is a resident for tax purposes.

That is, tax residency in another country is a big factor in whether CRA will deem the individual a resident of Canada for tax purposes. It is NOT the only deciding factor.

Beyond that, if you have Canadian source income that will require you to file a Canadian tax return. It is a lot, lot easier to NOT be deemed a tax resident of Canada when the individual has no obligation to file a Canadian tax return.

Otherwise, yes, working in Canada would constitute good evidence of actual presence for the time periods during which you work in Canada . . . recognizing, of course, this too is something to be shown by evidence. Working for a well-recognized Canadian organization or business, at a particular facility located in Canada, is a lot easier to document than, say, being self-employed or operating one's own business.

That said, you may have every reason to be confident you can do these things as you choose. Many more immigrants tend to find it difficult to find reasonable employment at all, let alone when coming and going at their will. Again, there are some practical pitfalls looming in the hypothetical plan. Perhaps you are someone who will easily overcome what problems might arise. Main thing is to be aware real-life tends to trip us up at times, and this tends to be especially so for immigrants. I am one who has had a particularly easy time of it, immigrating to Canada, but that is NOT to say there have not been a few surprises along the way, some hurdles to overcome.
 

arctur

Full Member
Jun 23, 2018
23
0
The short answer is yes, there's some chance.

The risk is that you won't be able to provide sufficient proof that you have in fact resided in Canada and met the residency obligation. If your application is sent for secondary review, you will need to provide further evidence to prove you were physically here all of those days. Simply showing entries and exits won't be enough since these records aren't always complete. You'll need to provide far more evidence - the kind of evidence you can typically only produce if you have actual ties to Canada. That's the risk.
hey schilla,

why don't they just stamp our passports on the way in and the way out. wouldnt that be alot easier for them than looking for proof or residence and all that..
that being said, can I request that my passport be stamped on my way in and out just as a proof for my residency renewal ?

my second question is, does applying for my sin (just applying for it and getting it )...affect whether ill be a tax resident or not ?

my third question, youre saying if I worked in canada, it will increase the risk of me paying taxes on my foreign income...did I get you right ?

thanks scylla ..
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
why don't they just stamp our passports on the way in and the way out. wouldnt that be alot easier for them than looking for proof or residence and all that..
that being said, can I request that my passport be stamped on my way in and out just as a proof for my residency renewal ?
You can request your passport be stamped. That will not accomplish much. If you enter and exit Canada three or four times a year, that will prove you were in Canada six or eight days those years. If your presence in Canada is questioned, proof of forty days in Canada will fall way, way short of proving PR Residency Obligation compliance.

Very few PRs will have their accounting of presence in Canada challenged. All are at risk of a challenge. But whose travel history declarations will be challenged is not a lottery. Some PRs have a very low risk. Some have a much higher risk. No advanced degrees in mathematics necessary to grasp which scenarios increase the risk. Some rather dramatically.

The problem, if and when challenged, is proving presence in Canada IN-BETWEEN dates the PR went through border controls.


In the meantime:

CBSA does attempt to capture and maintain a record every time a PR enters Canada from abroad.

Most exit events are also captured one way or another. For example, the U.S. captures a record of travelers entering the U.S. and for PRs who are not U.S. citizens this information is shared with Canada, the entry into the U.S. effectively constituting a record of the exit from Canada.

A PR's CBSA travel history is indeed an important, extensively relied upon resource. Over time it has become increasingly complete, at the least capturing a record of each time a PR enters Canada, at least usually (and for many this is indeed a complete record of entries). In respect to many if not most PR card applications, and many if not perhaps all citizenship applications, IRCC will compare the PR's reported travel history with the CBSA travel history.

That said, the CBSA travel history is NOT relied upon to be complete. After all, there are many, many ways in which a person can travel in or out of Canada without the border crossing event being captured at all, and many more ways it might be captured but not recorded under the same client number, such as recorded under a different name or client number.

Canada, like many governments, has been using passport stamps less and less. The trend is toward electronic/digital capturing of event-records and there is NO sign at all that Canada will reverse course toward relying on physical stamps in Travel Documents (recognizing that in certain types of border control transactions the officers still stamp Travel Documents).

Stamping passports slows border control procedures down considerably. Canada experiences nearly a HUNDRED MILLION applications for entry into Canada every year, and it is critical to the Canadian economy these applications are processed as efficiently and quickly as practically possible . . . so much so that the majority of these applications are made and granted with zero paperwork (applicant merely arrives at the PoE and presents a proper Travel Document, which is scanned, and then is waived into Canada), and there are even tens of thousands of frequent travelers who will be issued passes which allow them to make the application for entry and proceed into Canada just by slowly driving through certain designated lanes at U.S. border crossings (the NEXUS program).

Extensive exit control is expensive and will excessively slow travel. Little or no likelihood Canada will adopt more comprehensive exit controls just so PRs will be relieved of the burden of proving what only the PR is in the best posture to prove anyway.

Passport stamping is prone to human-error. Passport stamps are too easily altered or outright forged. And many travelers have multiple Travel Documents which means there is no one document which will for sure contain all entry, exit, or other border control stamps. And the latter, in particular, is one of the ways in which historically many people have gamed the system, using alternative Travel Documents to, in effect, conceal absences from Canada.

In the meantime, all a passport stamp proves is that the traveler/PR went through border control that day. It does not directly prove where the PR was any other day. An entry stamp into Canada does not prove the PR stayed in Canada.

Again, there are many, many ways in which a person can travel in or out of Canada without the border crossing event being captured. There are some city streets with little more than a marker to indicate where the border is, which people can casually walk across without going through any border control (albeit not legally, with some exceptions such as to use the Haskell Free Library and Oprah House in Stanstead/Derby Line); and literally thousands of miles of rural open border. And, as already noted, scores of ways to use alternative travel documents which will evade complete border control record-keeping. Moreover, given nearly a HUNDRED MILLION or so traveler-entry-into-Canada events each year, it is readily recognized the record-capturing system cannot be relied upon to be perfectly complete.

There is ONLY ONE PERSON in the whole world who is FOR-SURE capable of capturing a record of each and every border crossing event for any particular person: that is that individual himself or herself. A PR is there, in person, each and every time that PR crosses the border. He or she is the ONE PERSON in the whole world who can for-sure capture this information.

Which leads to my previous observation:

Proof of entry into Canada on a particular date directly proves ONLY that the PR was present in Canada that day; it does NOT directly prove the PR was present in Canada the next day, let alone a week later or a month later.

Many if not most conflate proof of presence and the INFERENCE of presence during the days between a known date of entry and the next known date of exit.
As noted, CBSA does attempt to capture and maintain a record of every time a PR enters Canada from abroad. And IRCC often compares the PR's travel history with what the PR reports in a PR card application or citizenship application. PR's can request a copy of their CBSA travel history. With very rare exceptions, this information generally is accurate.

However, the CBSA travel history is NOT relied upon to be complete. Thus, IRCC will compare this information with what the PR declares LOOKING FOR DISCREPANCIES. That is, IRCC uses this information to verify the PR's reporting. And, obviously, when there is a discrepancy, that will lead IRCC to have questions or, depending on the nature and extent of the discrepancy (in conjunction with other information), outright suspicions.

Of course IRCC also uses other information to verify the accuracy and COMPLETENESS of a PR's reported travel history. This is where the PR's work history can influence things. The absence of a work history in Canada tends to suggest the PR may have been outside Canada. The lack of home ownership or rental in Canada tends to suggest the possibility the individual was NOT living in Canada. And so on. So weak evidence of work or personal residence in Canada can and typically will lead IRCC to engage in non-routine processing of an application for a new PR card, to request and consider additional information in order to verify whether the PR was actually in Canada during this or that period of time.

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE PR. For obvious reasons. Again, the PR is the ONE BEST PERSON in the world to have the relevant information which will prove where the PR was on any given day.

Many of those who have cutting-it-close border-straddling lifestyles tend to underestimate how difficult it can be, IF CHALLENGED, to prove actual presence. The absence of evidence of presence is sufficient for IRCC to conclude the PR has failed to meet the burden of proving presence. IRCC does not need to prove anything to determine a PR has failed to prove sufficient presence to comply with the PR RO, and is thus inadmissible.

As I have oft quoted elsewhere, from a certain movie character: "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

And to be clear, Canada is NO Nanny-State. Canada will not prove a PR's case for him or her.
 

arctur

Full Member
Jun 23, 2018
23
0
You can request your passport be stamped. That will not accomplish much. If you enter and exit Canada three or four times a year, that will prove you were in Canada six or eight days those years. If your presence in Canada is questioned, proof of forty days in Canada will fall way, way short of proving PR Residency Obligation compliance.

Very few PRs will have their accounting of presence in Canada challenged. All are at risk of a challenge. But whose travel history declarations will be challenged is not a lottery. Some PRs have a very low risk. Some have a much higher risk. No advanced degrees in mathematics necessary to grasp which scenarios increase the risk. Some rather dramatically.

The problem, if and when challenged, is proving presence in Canada IN-BETWEEN dates the PR went through border controls.


In the meantime:

CBSA does attempt to capture and maintain a record every time a PR enters Canada from abroad.

Most exit events are also captured one way or another. For example, the U.S. captures a record of travelers entering the U.S. and for PRs who are not U.S. citizens this information is shared with Canada, the entry into the U.S. effectively constituting a record of the exit from Canada.

A PR's CBSA travel history is indeed an important, extensively relied upon resource. Over time it has become increasingly complete, at the least capturing a record of each time a PR enters Canada, at least usually (and for many this is indeed a complete record of entries). In respect to many if not most PR card applications, and many if not perhaps all citizenship applications, IRCC will compare the PR's reported travel history with the CBSA travel history.

That said, the CBSA travel history is NOT relied upon to be complete. After all, there are many, many ways in which a person can travel in or out of Canada without the border crossing event being captured at all, and many more ways it might be captured but not recorded under the same client number, such as recorded under a different name or client number.

Canada, like many governments, has been using passport stamps less and less. The trend is toward electronic/digital capturing of event-records and there is NO sign at all that Canada will reverse course toward relying on physical stamps in Travel Documents (recognizing that in certain types of border control transactions the officers still stamp Travel Documents).

Stamping passports slows border control procedures down considerably. Canada experiences nearly a HUNDRED MILLION applications for entry into Canada every year, and it is critical to the Canadian economy these applications are processed as efficiently and quickly as practically possible . . . so much so that the majority of these applications are made and granted with zero paperwork (applicant merely arrives at the PoE and presents a proper Travel Document, which is scanned, and then is waived into Canada), and there are even tens of thousands of frequent travelers who will be issued passes which allow them to make the application for entry and proceed into Canada just by slowly driving through certain designated lanes at U.S. border crossings (the NEXUS program).

Extensive exit control is expensive and will excessively slow travel. Little or no likelihood Canada will adopt more comprehensive exit controls just so PRs will be relieved of the burden of proving what only the PR is in the best posture to prove anyway.

Passport stamping is prone to human-error. Passport stamps are too easily altered or outright forged. And many travelers have multiple Travel Documents which means there is no one document which will for sure contain all entry, exit, or other border control stamps. And the latter, in particular, is one of the ways in which historically many people have gamed the system, using alternative Travel Documents to, in effect, conceal absences from Canada.

In the meantime, all a passport stamp proves is that the traveler/PR went through border control that day. It does not directly prove where the PR was any other day. An entry stamp into Canada does not prove the PR stayed in Canada.

Again, there are many, many ways in which a person can travel in or out of Canada without the border crossing event being captured. There are some city streets with little more than a marker to indicate where the border is, which people can casually walk across without going through any border control (albeit not legally, with some exceptions such as to use the Haskell Free Library and Oprah House in Stanstead/Derby Line); and literally thousands of miles of rural open border. And, as already noted, scores of ways to use alternative travel documents which will evade complete border control record-keeping. Moreover, given nearly a HUNDRED MILLION or so traveler-entry-into-Canada events each year, it is readily recognized the record-capturing system cannot be relied upon to be perfectly complete.

There is ONLY ONE PERSON in the whole world who is FOR-SURE capable of capturing a record of each and every border crossing event for any particular person: that is that individual himself or herself. A PR is there, in person, each and every time that PR crosses the border. He or she is the ONE PERSON in the whole world who can for-sure capture this information.

Which leads to my previous observation:



As noted, CBSA does attempt to capture and maintain a record of every time a PR enters Canada from abroad. And IRCC often compares the PR's travel history with what the PR reports in a PR card application or citizenship application. PR's can request a copy of their CBSA travel history. With very rare exceptions, this information generally is accurate.

However, the CBSA travel history is NOT relied upon to be complete. Thus, IRCC will compare this information with what the PR declares LOOKING FOR DISCREPANCIES. That is, IRCC uses this information to verify the PR's reporting. And, obviously, when there is a discrepancy, that will lead IRCC to have questions or, depending on the nature and extent of the discrepancy (in conjunction with other information), outright suspicions.

Of course IRCC also uses other information to verify the accuracy and COMPLETENESS of a PR's reported travel history. This is where the PR's work history can influence things. The absence of a work history in Canada tends to suggest the PR may have been outside Canada. The lack of home ownership or rental in Canada tends to suggest the possibility the individual was NOT living in Canada. And so on. So weak evidence of work or personal residence in Canada can and typically will lead IRCC to engage in non-routine processing of an application for a new PR card, to request and consider additional information in order to verify whether the PR was actually in Canada during this or that period of time.

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE PR. For obvious reasons. Again, the PR is the ONE BEST PERSON in the world to have the relevant information which will prove where the PR was on any given day.

Many of those who have cutting-it-close border-straddling lifestyles tend to underestimate how difficult it can be, IF CHALLENGED, to prove actual presence. The absence of evidence of presence is sufficient for IRCC to conclude the PR has failed to meet the burden of proving presence. IRCC does not need to prove anything to determine a PR has failed to prove sufficient presence to comply with the PR RO, and is thus inadmissible.

As I have oft quoted elsewhere, from a certain movie character: "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

And to be clear, Canada is NO Nanny-State. Canada will not prove a PR's case for him or her.
training day. I love that movie.

so , will rental bills and cell phone bills be enough proof that I was residing in canada ?
 

arctur

Full Member
Jun 23, 2018
23
0
JUST TO DOUBLE CHECK...

I know it probably wont affect anything..

does applying and receiving my SIN PAPER, affect whether i'm declared a tax resident or not ?

just applying for it ( not actually using it to work ) ..