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Removal order

bengalister

Member
May 25, 2016
18
3
Hi

I had received a removal order at YUL to execute within 60 days because I did not comply with the residency obligations. I was expecting it even thought I regret it. But that is not the issue.

I left Canada after 9 days but the immigration officer at the airport did not provide me with documents to sign. The justification was that I left before 30 days and thus could still appeal... my loss of residence or order removal that I don't know. I gave my contact info on a blank piece of paper. The officer told me that I would receive by mail a confirmation after 30 days.

I am very concerned that I will have trouble entering Canada now being unable to prove that I left when asked to.

Any advice ?
 

scylla

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Hi

I had received a removal order at YUL to execute within 60 days because I did not comply with the residency obligations. I was expecting it even thought I regret it. But that is not the issue.

I left Canada after 9 days but the immigration officer at the airport did not provide me with documents to sign. The justification was that I left before 30 days and thus could still appeal... my loss of residence or order removal that I don't know. I gave my contact info on a blank piece of paper. The officer told me that I would receive by mail a confirmation after 30 days.

I am very concerned that I will have trouble entering Canada now being unable to prove that I left when asked to.

Any advice ?
You're referring to what happened back in 2016, is that right?

I assume you are planning on returning as a visitor?

Do you hold a US passport?
 

bengalister

Member
May 25, 2016
18
3
You're referring to what happened back in 2016, is that right?

I assume you are planning on returning as a visitor?

Do you hold a US passport?
No not what happened in 2016. I had re applied for a new PR, got it sooner that I expected mid 2017 and when COVID hit I did not travel to Canada to settle while I was already short on my presence in Canada. I regretted it and still took a chance a few days ago knowing that I failed once again meeting my residency obligations by a large margin (I had only spent around 100 days in the last 5 years).

I got reported as expected, decided to not appeal (considering that I did not have real H&C reasons) and left the country at YUL informing immigration. But I was not given any paper and that's what frightens me.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
96,857
22,843
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
No not what happened in 2016. I had re applied for a new PR, got it sooner that I expected mid 2017 and when COVID hit I did not travel to Canada to settle while I was already short on my presence in Canada. I regretted it and still took a chance a few days ago knowing that I failed once again meeting my residency obligations by a large margin (I had only spent around 100 days in the last 5 years).

I got reported as expected, decided to not appeal (considering that I did not have real H&C reasons) and left the country at YUL informing immigration. But I was not given any paper and that's what frightens me.
CBSA will know you left based on airline records. I don't think you should be worried about that.
 

Ponga

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Oct 22, 2013
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No not what happened in 2016. I had re applied for a new PR, got it sooner that I expected mid 2017 and when COVID hit I did not travel to Canada to settle while I was already short on my presence in Canada. I regretted it and still took a chance a few days ago knowing that I failed once again meeting my residency obligations by a large margin (I had only spent around 100 days in the last 5 years).

I got reported as expected, decided to not appeal (considering that I did not have real H&C reasons) and left the country at YUL informing immigration. But I was not given any paper and that's what frightens me.
Request your exit/entry records from CBSA via an ATIP request. This will certainly show your last exit from Canada.
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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Request your exit/entry records from CBSA via an ATIP request. This will certainly show your last exit from Canada.
Have you seen any ATIP reports from CBSA yet that show exits esp exits by plane?

Honest question, in that I do not know if CBSA ATIP requests show that yet.
 

Ponga

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Have you seen any ATIP reports from CBSA yet that show exits esp exits by plane?

Honest question, in that I do not know if CBSA ATIP requests show that yet.
No, but I would be surprised if CBSA did not have the information (from passenger manifest, for example).
 

abdo_85

Full Member
Jun 7, 2012
26
3
Hi

I had received a removal order at YUL to execute within 60 days because I did not comply with the residency obligations. I was expecting it even thought I regret it. But that is not the issue.

I left Canada after 9 days but the immigration officer at the airport did not provide me with documents to sign. The justification was that I left before 30 days and thus could still appeal... my loss of residence or order removal that I don't know. I gave my contact info on a blank piece of paper. The officer told me that I would receive by mail a confirmation after 30 days.

I am very concerned that I will have trouble entering Canada now being unable to prove that I left when asked to.

Any advice ?
Wondering did you enter YUL with expired or valid PR card ?
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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No, but I would be surprised if CBSA did not have the information (from passenger manifest, for example).
I've no doubt that CBSA can get the information if they need it. But that doesn't mean that the information will be included in an ATIP request.

I've covered this before here - the issue is that if one agency of government 'owns'* the information, they don't necessarily have the right to share it with anyone, including with the subject - you'd have to go and get it yourself from whatever agency does own it.

This is particularly true about information received from other (foreign) governments. There are strict info-sharing agreements that outline what they are allowed to do with information they get from other. Or in simple terms: even if CBSA can access on-demand (electronically) info from the US govt (eg entry info at road ports of entry which for Canada is an exit), that does not mean the USA has authorized CBSA to share that with anyone else.

I suspect the same thing will be true with info collected by the Ministry of Transport (or some agency under MoT) for exits by air.

At any rate, I do not assume and would suggest no one else assume that such ATIP requests will show all exits from Canada.

*I'm using 'own' here colloquially - as I understand federal regs about electronic databases and the like, there is supposed to be a single agency (or minsitry or authority or whatever) that both 'holds' the data and is responsible for, among other things, privacy enforcement and specifically restricting access only to such agencies as also have a need-to-know or authorization to do so, AND under terms that limit how those agencies use or restrict that info top their own internal use. That's the sense in which I'm using 'own.'

And to be clear: ask Agency A for info about yourself under ATIP and I believe they will only provide you information that they 'own' - even if they know about or can access other info at Agencies B-Z, they may not be allowed to share that info with you.
 
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Ponga

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I've no doubt that CBSA can get the information if they need it. But that doesn't mean that the information will be included in an ATIP request.

I've covered this before here - the issue is that if one agency of government 'owns'* the information, they don't necessarily have the right to share it with anyone, including with the subject - you'd have to go and get it yourself from whatever agency does own it.

This is particularly true about information received from other (foreign) governments. There are strict info-sharing agreements that outline what they are allowed to do with information they get from other. Or in simple terms: even if CBSA can access on-demand (electronically) info from the US govt (eg entry info at road ports of entry which for Canada is an exit), that does not mean the USA has authorized CBSA to share that with anyone else.

I suspect the same thing will be true with info collected by the Ministry of Transport (or some agency under MoT) for exits by air.

At any rate, I do not assume and would suggest no one else assume that such ATIP requests will show all exits from Canada.

*I'm using 'own' here colloquially - as I understand federal regs about electronic databases and the like, there is supposed to be a single agency (or minsitry or authority or whatever) that both 'holds' the data and is responsible for, among other things, privacy enforcement and specifically restricting access only to such agencies as also have a need-to-know or authorization to do so, AND under terms that limit how those agencies use or restrict that info top their own internal use. That's the sense in which I'm using 'own.'

And to be clear: ask Agency A for info about yourself under ATIP and I believe they will only provide you information that they 'own' - even if they know about or can access other info at Agencies B-Z, they may not be allowed to share that info with you.
Exactly the reply I was anticipating...because I failed to add that same disclaimer from previous `discussions' to my previous post. LOL!
 

armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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Exactly the reply I was anticipating...because I failed to add that same disclaimer from previous `discussions' to my previous post. LOL!
No, you just wrote "Request your exit/entry records from CBSA via an ATIP request. This will certainly show your last exit from Canada."

Seems dubious to claim that it will 'certainly' show information that is far from certain.
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Regarding OP's query: I concur with observations that this is not likely to lead to issues in returning to Canada as a visitor (or applying for other status, such as work permit or another PR visa). I concur, in particular, that if the departure was verified by a CBSA officer at the PoE that it is near certain it will not cause any problems.

However, I am not sure of the mechanics. Worst case scenario is a former PR might need to obtain Authorization to Return to Canada (ARC), which would become apparent when they apply for eTA or a visa. In the case of a former PR, this should be little more than a formality. The person affected, such as the OP, would be prudent to keep a clear record of the date of departure and good copies of tickets and such documenting the departure; with such documents there should be no problem at all obtaining the ARC.

An ARC should only be required if the former PR is the subject of a Deportation Order. According to some sources, technically the Removal Order will automatically become a Deportation Order sixty days after it is issued but *only if the former PR does not leave Canada before then*, that is, does not leave within sixty days after the Removal Order is issued.

It is sixty days because the Removal Order itself does not take effect, is not enforceable, for 30 days after it is issued (and not then if an appeal is filed), and a person has 30 days to leave Canada after the Removal Order becomes effective. So a total of sixty days.

It is worth noting that while the ARC comes up regularly in other contexts, so far as I have seen that is overwhelmingly in regards to FNs issued Removal Orders, not former PRs issued a Removal Order having lost status due to a RO breach. No guarantee that former PRs have not had to obtain a ARC to travel to Canada, but it suggests it is either not common or so easily resolved it does not come up as an issue.


. . . ask Agency A for info about yourself under ATIP and I believe they will only provide you information that they 'own' - even if they know about or can access other info at Agencies B-Z, they may not be allowed to share that info with you.
Fully agree with the good explanation in that post.

In ADDITION, even within an agency's databases and otherwise stored information, the ATIP only generates a copy of the individual's personal information, that is, information specifically stored in relation to the individual. An agency or department could have (very commonly will have I'd guess) a great deal of information related to particular individuals that can be accessed or retrieved but which is not stored as "personal information" and thus will not populate the ATIP output.

I am not sure I can clearly explain how this works, what it means. And it gets complicated. I'll try (a few years ago, as recounted here by me in numerous posts, I researched the nature and scope of PIBs related to immigration, but it's a huge subject, complicated, lots of nuances, and the weeds are deep and thick and expansive, and I have not revisited that much in depth for at least several years now).

The information that is generated in response to the ATIP is that maintained in PIBs (Personal Information Banks). That is not all information the agency has about an individual. (And, as @armoured explained well, the information obtained by ATIP is information within that agency or department's control, thus in a PIB in the agency's control, and does not reach information in another agency's PIBs even if though the agency can access it; note, for example, IRCC now has more or less direct access to CBSA travel history, but an ATIP request to IRCC for the CBSA travel history will not work.)

Definition: Personal information banks (PIBs) are descriptions of personal information under the control of a government institution that is organized and retrievable by an individual's name or by a number, symbol or other element that identifies that individual. See https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/access-information-privacy/access-information/information-about-programs-information-holdings/standard-personal-information-banks.html and same definition is found elsewhere, many government sites, including: https://www.priv.gc.ca/en/about-the-opc/opc-access-to-information-and-privacy/infosource/

For purposes of the discussion here, the key element in this definition is that the information is *organized* by identification of the person. It will also be retrievable by identification of the person, but other databases and collections of information can be subject to search functions which will facilitate recovery (retrieval) of information about individuals within that information, without it being organized by the individual person's identity.

CBSA, for example, maintains personal travel history information for all individuals entering Canada. While there is no assumption every entry into Canada is captured in these records, as to the individual, for many years these records have been both complete and accurate for almost all travelers. These are available to the affected person by ATIP.

Note: most exceptions, though not all, where an entry record is not captured, are due to a technical failure to capture the entry or a deliberate skirting of record-capture by individual travelers. The latter ranges from travelers using alternative travel documents to unregulated entries. The unregulated entries are more common than many want to acknowledge. Roxam Road, in the news a lot of late, is hardly unusual let alone an anomaly, noting though its popularity and notoriety has made that particular location less suitable for those trying to enter Canada without being subject to border control, noting that those crossing there these days are arrested, making it perfect for those who want to seek refugee status from within Canada (while arrested, they are soon released into Canada and, for now, can pursue their refugee claim from within Canada).

So that travel history of entries into Canada, maintained by CBSA, is readily obtained by an individual through the ATIP procedure.

Exit data comes from multiple sources. It is not clear to what extent CBSA integrates such data into its PIBs for individual travelers. I do not know, for example, what CBSA does with the data it gets from the U.S. regarding travelers entering that country from Canada, effectively documenting the traveler's exit from Canada. I do know that CBSA can fairly easily access that data and identify a particular traveler's history of entries into the U.S. (thus exits from Canada). But unless CBSA actually organizes the information in that data according to the identity of the individual traveler, it will remain outside the scope of the ATIP request for personal information. Similarly flight manifest information acquired by other agencies and shared with CBSA. CBSA might very well take control and maintain its own database of this information, but it only becomes accessible to the individual if it is also organized by personal-identity.

The difference is what is readily populated in a database query versus what can be retrieved from databases through search functionality.

Whether that is a legitimate distinction that should be allowed under current privacy and access to information law, or as some might argue a loophole agencies use to minimize what they have to share with individuals, is not for me to say. All I know is that even good governments will tend to hide as much as . . . well, as much as they can get away with hiding.
 

Ponga

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No, you just wrote "Request your exit/entry records from CBSA via an ATIP request. This will certainly show your last exit from Canada."

Seems dubious to claim that it will 'certainly' show information that is far from certain.
Give me a break...and ignore the `like' that was posted by accident.

Have you never posted something that was not 100% accurate, even though you were trying to be helpful.

I posted that I forgot to add the language that you are so obsessed with, thinking that it might correct my error.

Sick of this!!!
 

Ponga

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Similarly flight manifest information acquired by other agencies and shared with CBSA. CBSA might very well take control and maintain its own database of this information, but it only becomes accessible to the individual if it is also organized by personal-identity.
So would a copy of the OP's departing flight ticket, showing that they did in fact leave Canada 9 days after the Removal Order, suffice to alleviate their concerns?
 

dpenabill

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So would a copy of the OP's departing flight ticket, showing that they did in fact leave Canada 9 days after the Removal Order, suffice to alleviate their concerns?
Frankly I don't see much cause for concern at all. Even without such documents.

As I noted, the absence of reporting about former PRs even having to obtain a ARC to return to Canada as a visitor suggests that either it is not common for former PRs to be required to obtain an ARC, or it is so easily resolved it does not come up as an issue. Suggesting no cause for concern.

In contrast, for FNs who were subject to deportation proceedings and failed to timely leave Canada, such as those who have made failed refugee applications, FNs overstaying or working out of status in Canada, or FNs for whom there is otherwise cause to apprehend they might work illegally or overstay in Canada, it might not be at all easy to get an ARC. In contrast, it might be worth remembering, after all, that the main concern addressed by requiring the ARC is screening to identify FNs who are likely to overstay in Canada, whereas former PRs who lost status due to RO breach have, in contrast, a history of not staying.

But I do not know the mechanics very well. I know there are circumstances related to Removal Orders in which verifying the departure with a PoE officer suffices, while in others the individual needs to obtain a "Certificate of Departure" showing the date of exit.

And while at least some law firm and consultant sites online state the procedure pursuant to which a Removal Order automatically becomes a Deportation Order (which then means ARC would be necessary to return to Canada) applies to the Removal Order issued at a PoE to a PR in RO breach, I am not sure about this.