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Regarding Police Certificate

smash1984

Champion Member
Oct 7, 2018
2,084
850
Hi guys,

it is still early days since I intend to apply for citizenship around 28th feb 2022 (when I will have completed 1100 days in Canada) but I want to be ready just in case I have to supply PCs because they take a lot of time.

However, I have a question regarding Police Certificates.

So I came to Canada in Sept 2018 (as a student) and got my PR towards end of May 2019. So I furnished PCs from Pakistan (my country of birth) and USA (my country of residence before coming to Canada).

So I was in the US all of 2018 till Aug 10th 2018 (when I left it for Pakistan and after 3 weeks, came to Canada). Once I was in Canada I did make a couple of trips to the US in 2019 and also a couple of trips to Pakistan in 2019.

My question is, given the past 4 year requirement for citizenship PCCs do I need to furnish PCCs for my citizenship application?

Helpful advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
 

rajkamalmohanram

VIP Member
Apr 29, 2015
15,803
5,787
Hi guys,

it is still early days since I intend to apply for citizenship around 28th feb 2022 (when I will have completed 1100 days in Canada) but I want to be ready just in case I have to supply PCs because they take a lot of time.

However, I have a question regarding Police Certificates.

So I came to Canada in Sept 2018 (as a student) and got my PR towards end of May 2019. So I furnished PCs from Pakistan (my country of birth) and USA (my country of residence before coming to Canada).

So I was in the US all of 2018 till Aug 10th 2018 (when I left it for Pakistan and after 3 weeks, came to Canada). Once I was in Canada I did make a couple of trips to the US in 2019 and also a couple of trips to Pakistan in 2019.

My question is, given the past 4 year requirement for citizenship PCCs do I need to furnish PCCs for my citizenship application?

Helpful advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
This is only my opinion. The decision of whether to submit your PCC or not is completely yours.

You have stayed in the US for more than 183 days in the past 4 years. I would consider US as your "Country of origin" because you were "residing" in the US immediately prior to establishing Permanent Residency in Canada so in this case, you would not have to provide US PCC. Based on what you've mentioned, you haven't stayed in Pakistan for more than 183 days in the past 4 years so no PCC is needed for Pakistan either.
 

smash1984

Champion Member
Oct 7, 2018
2,084
850
This is only my opinion. The decision of whether to submit your PCC or not is completely yours.

You have stayed in the US for more than 183 days in the past 4 years. I would consider US as your "Country of origin" because you were "residing" in the US immediately prior to establishing Permanent Residency in Canada so in this case, you would not have to provide US PCC. Based on what you've mentioned, you haven't stayed in Pakistan for more than 183 days in the past 4 years so no PCC is needed for Pakistan either.
Thank you, I appreciate the input.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
General, overriding observation:

If there was a definitive, for-sure answer, I would not be commenting. If I am commenting that usually means there is more to the story.

Thus, the following observations get tangled in technicalities and complexities.

However, it is NOT necessary for either @smash1984 or @SszZTkmZ to get bogged down in these technicalities or complexities. There are more simple pathways to follow, and for most PRs those simple routes tend to be the best routes. Indeed, here the simple path for @smash1984 would be to wait until next April to apply; for @SszZTkmZ the simple path is to go ahead and obtain and submit a U.S. PCC with the application.

Otherwise . . .

@smash1984 . . . I did not look at this discussion closely until now . . . FWIW I disagree with @rajkamalmohanram some (at least as to the reason) in regards to not needing a PCC from the U.S. based on it being your "country of origin."

Even if the U.S. is your country of origin, you were not in that country "immediately prior to becoming a permanent resident and landing in Canada," with emphasis on "immediately prior" to becoming a PR (you were a FN in Canada with TRV status "immediately prior" to landing and becoming a PR). So even if the U.S. was your country of origin, it does not fit into the instruction stating when it is not necessary to provide a PCC from the country of origin.

But that is not to say . . . well, there are multiple ways to go at this BUT it does not need to be that complicated. If you wait another month or so, say until early April 2022 to apply, which would be a good idea anyway (at least a month's margin in regards to physical presence would be a good idea; it could mean taking the oath quite a bit sooner than you probably would if you rush applying), then you do not need to list the U.S. as a country where you were for 183 days or a more in a row during the previous four years.

The simple approach (waiting to apply), and not listing the U.S. in 10.b) (assuming that is consistent with the facts) is the better approach. No need to consider the longer explanation, navigating the nuances a bit, which I will nonetheless offer below.

Caveat: you could be asked, during the processing of the application, to obtain and submit a U.S. PCC anyway.


so what did u finally do smash?
You should have noticed that @smash1984 is not intending to make a citizenship application until February or so NEXT year.

I will note that I disagree some with the response by @rajkamalmohanram (partial explanation above).

I will more emphatically note that since you have indicated you are proceeding to obtain and submit a U.S. PCC with your application, and you report that you have not been in India for 183 days or more in the last four years, it appears any question you had about what PCCs to submit is resolved.

I am getting a USA/FBI clearance letter already. Mailed it out today.

The only question is regarding the India police certificate. In the last 4 years, I was there for 3 weeks so I should not need a clearance certificate right? IRCC want just for the last 4 years, right? and not everything from 18 years of age if I understood correctly.
Also noting I did not directly consider the latter post (must have overlooked it) in my lengthy response to you in the other thread. Does not change any conclusions based on what I posted. In regards to whether a PCC from India is needed, the fact that you were not in India for 183 days or more in the last four years definitively answers that question: NO . . . since you were not in India for 183 days or more in the last four years, you do not even list India in the 10.b) chart.

THUS . . . it appears you probably do not need to provide a U.S. PCC (unless you have been there since landing and becoming a PR) based on Example 1 in the instructions/guide . . . BUT providing a U.S. PCC proactively is a safe way to go . . . And no need to list India in the chart; no need to provide a PCC from India (this is based on NOT being in India 183 days or more in a row during the last four years, as of the day you apply).


More Complicated Aspects of U.S. PCC Question; Country of Origin Clarification:

This is only my opinion. The decision of whether to submit your PCC or not is completely yours.

You have stayed in the US for more than 183 days in the past 4 years. I would consider US as your "Country of origin" because you were "residing" in the US immediately prior to establishing Permanent Residency in Canada so in this case, you would not have to provide US PCC. Based on what you've mentioned, you haven't stayed in Pakistan for more than 183 days in the past 4 years so no PCC is needed for Pakistan either.
As I noted above, actually @smash1984 was not in the U.S. "immediately prior to establishing Permanent Residency in Canada" (@smash1984 was a FN in Canada with TRV status "immediately prior" to landing and becoming a PR), so the instruction stating an applicant does not need to provide a PCC for the country of origin does not apply.

Technically.

Sometimes technicalities matter. Sometimes not so much.

Staying inside the lines "technically" is, usually, safe; at least more safe than wandering outside the lines "technically" (in contrast, it needs to be noted, sometimes staying inside the lines "technically" is not good enough to avoid some difficult non-routine processing involving lengthy delays).

Which leads to the details in regards to the more complicated options @smash1984 has . . . to be continued . . .
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
. . . I intend to apply for citizenship around 28th feb 2022 (when I will have completed 1100 days in Canada) but I want to be ready just in case I have to supply PCs because they take a lot of time.
Before diving deeper into the more complicated aspects, it warrants a reminder that if you, @smash1984, wait another month or so to apply, say wait until early April 2022 to apply, which again would be a good idea anyway, then you do not need to list the U.S. as a country in which you have been in for 183 days or a more in a row during the previous four years.

If you do that, wait to apply to when you do not need to list the U.S. in the 10.b) chart, that means it will NOT be necessary to include a U.S. PCC WITH the application.

Since IRCC could ask for a U.S. PCC anyway, later on, it might be prudent to proceed with obtaining a U.S. PCC anyway and have it ready to submit.

Otherwise . . . it is a little complicated . . .

. . . I intend to apply for citizenship around 28th feb 2022 (when I will have completed 1100 days in Canada) but I want to be ready just in case I have to supply PCs because they take a lot of time.

However, I have a question regarding Police Certificates.

So I came to Canada in Sept 2018 (as a student) and got my PR towards end of May 2019. So I furnished PCs from Pakistan (my country of birth) and USA (my country of residence before coming to Canada).

So I was in the US all of 2018 till Aug 10th 2018 (when I left it for Pakistan and after 3 weeks, came to Canada). Once I was in Canada I did make a couple of trips to the US in 2019 and also a couple of trips to Pakistan in 2019.

My question is, given the past 4 year requirement for citizenship PCCs do I need to furnish PCCs for my citizenship application?
As noted, if you wait to apply when you do not need to list the U.S. in the 10.b) chart, that means it will NOT be necessary to include a U.S. PCC WITH the application.

There is, otherwise, the option of applying within a period of time you need to check "yes" (item 10.b in the application) you were in a country for 183 days or more within the preceding four years, and list that country, the U.S. If you do this you can either:
-- include a U.S. PCC (easier to do than it is for quite a few other countries; so as it appears @SszZTkmZ will likely do, you can eliminate most risks related to providing PCCs by simply obtaining and submitting the U.S. PCC with your application), or​
-- as @rajkamalmohanram appears to be suggesting, not include a U.S. PCC but explain, in the chart box provided, that the U.S. was your country of origin and that is where you were prior to becoming a Canadian PR​

This is where things get a bit complicated. And it can appear more complicated than it really is because what is often overlooked is the difference between:
-- what is required to make a complete application, versus​
-- what can be requested and required to establish the applicant has no criminal matters constituting a prohibition​

If you do what @rajkamalmohanram appears to be suggesting, which is to not include a U.S. PCC but explain, in the chart box provided, that the U.S. was your country of origin and that is where you were prior to becoming a Canadian PR, that gets the application PAST the completeness screening.

As I noted, technically that is not the correct response, because you were not in the U.S. "immediately prior to establishing Permanent Residency in Canada." But the odds are very good that will still, nonetheless, pass the completeness screening.

Moreover, wandering into the realm of guessing a bit, my guess is that this gets a pass anyway.

As I previously commented, sometimes the technicalities matter. Sometimes they don't.

As I have otherwise commented, the citizenship application is NOT intended to test the applicant's ability to properly complete bureaucratic forms. IRCC does NOT engage in gotcha-games. If you provided a U.S. PCC with your PR visa application and have not been living or working in the U.S. since then, unless IRCC has other reasons inviting concern, odds are good this is not an issue; odds are good the previous PCC plus a clear name-record check for the U.S. (an FBI/NCIC name record check is standard for all citizenship applicants, repeated multiple times right up to scheduling the oath) suffices to assure IRCC there are no U.S. related criminal prohibitions.

As @rajkamalmohanram also commented, the decision about whether to include a PCC is YOURS to make. And, consistent with what @rajkamalmohanram suggested, my sense is that not including a U.S. PCC but explaining, in the box in the chart for explaining, that the U.S. was your country of origin and that is where you were prior to becoming a Canadian PR, has good odds of working. Not because the latter is correct, but because it does not matter.

Unless it does matter (such as if there is a name record hit in the U.S. NCIC database), or unless there is some other concern inviting IRCC to more strictly scrutinize the application (such as concerns about actual physical presence).
 
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smash1984

Champion Member
Oct 7, 2018
2,084
850
Before diving deeper into the more complicated aspects, it warrants a reminder that if you, @smash1984, wait another month or so to apply, say wait until early April 2022 to apply, which again would be a good idea anyway, then you do not need to list the U.S. as a country in which you have been in for 183 days or a more in a row during the previous four years.

If you do that, wait to apply to when you do not need to list the U.S. in the 10.b) chart, that means it will NOT be necessary to include a U.S. PCC WITH the application.

Since IRCC could ask for a U.S. PCC anyway, later on, it might be prudent to proceed with obtaining a U.S. PCC anyway and have it ready to submit.

Otherwise . . . it is a little complicated . . .



As noted, if you wait to apply when you do not need to list the U.S. in the 10.b) chart, that means it will NOT be necessary to include a U.S. PCC WITH the application.

There is, otherwise, the option of applying within a period of time you need to check "yes" (item 10.b in the application) you were in a country for 183 days or more within the preceding four years, and list that country, the U.S. If you do this you can either:
-- include a U.S. PCC (easier to do than it is for quite a few other countries; so as it appears @SszZTkmZ will likely do, you can eliminate most risks related to providing PCCs by simply obtaining and submitting the U.S. PCC with your application), or​
-- as @rajkamalmohanram appears to be suggesting, not include a U.S. PCC but explain, in the chart box provided, that the U.S. was your country of origin and that is where you were prior to becoming a Canadian PR​

This is where things get a bit complicated. And it can appear more complicated than it really is because what is often overlooked is the difference between:
-- what is required to make a complete application, versus​
-- what can be requested and required to establish the applicant has no criminal matters constituting a prohibition​

If you do what @rajkamalmohanram appears to be suggesting, which is to not include a U.S. PCC but explain, in the chart box provided, that the U.S. was your country of origin and that is where you were prior to becoming a Canadian PR, that gets the application PAST the completeness screening.

As I noted, technically that is not the correct response, because you were not in the U.S. "immediately prior to establishing Permanent Residency in Canada." But the odds are very good that will still, nonetheless, pass the completeness screening.

Moreover, wandering into the realm of guessing a bit, my guess is that this gets a pass anyway.

As I previously commented, sometimes the technicalities matter. Sometimes they don't.

As I have otherwise commented, the citizenship application is NOT intended to test the applicant's ability to properly complete bureaucratic forms. IRCC does NOT engage in gotcha-games. If you provided a U.S. PCC with your PR visa application and have not been living or working in the U.S. since then, unless IRCC has other reasons inviting concern, odds are good this is not an issue; odds are good the previous PCC plus a clear name-record check for the U.S. (an FBI/NCIC name record check is standard for all citizenship applicants, repeated multiple times right up to scheduling the oath) suffices to assure IRCC there are no U.S. related criminal prohibitions.

As @rajkamalmohanram also commented, the decision about whether to include a PCC is YOURS to make. And, consistent with what @rajkamalmohanram suggested, my sense is that not including a U.S. PCC but explaining, in the box in the chart for explaining, that the U.S. was your country of origin and that is where you were prior to becoming a Canadian PR, has good odds of working. Not because the latter is correct, but because it does not matter.

Unless it does matter (such as if there is a name record hit in the U.S. NCIC database), or unless there is some other concern inviting IRCC to more strictly scrutinize the application (such as concerns about actual physical presence).
Thank you @dpenabill . I really appreciate the detailed answer. Yes, I did submit my FBI clearance with my PR application and have barely spent a few days in the US since then.

I think waiting until April might be a good idea. I just have to wait an extra month for that which is not a big deal.

I am also wondering whether I should then submit the application and still apply for an FBI clearance just to have it ready in case they ask me. I did read somewhere that FBI clearance is taking a lot of time due to covid (not sure how accurate that is anymore) so maybe applying for it and having it on me might not be a bad idea, especially if it is taking very long to get it.

Decisions, Decisions,......ugh
 

smash1984

Champion Member
Oct 7, 2018
2,084
850
so what did u finally do smash?
I haven't yet made a decision but I am leaning towards delaying my application by a month and ordering a US PCC just to be on the safe side. I might not submit it with the app but keep it in case they ask for it.

I will think over it for the next 3 - 4 months. if I apply for the FBI clearance it will be next year because I might have a trip lined up to the US around christmas to meet family IF the land border between Canada and US opens by then.