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Refused skilled worker application - Phd stream

Matt Sh.

Member
May 31, 2011
10
0
Hi all,

I just received a sad email from CiC that my application for SWC was refused. I applied under Phd student stream, and the reason for refusal is mentioned as follows:

"... because you have not provided evidence that you have obtained at least one year of full-time skilled work experience. The duties listed in your letters of reference from ... and ... do not match the lead statement and a substantial number of main duties under the NOC code you selected, NOC 2131, Civil Engineers. As such, I am not satisfied that you have the skilled work experience as a Civil Engineer as claimed in your application."

The fact is that I have been working as a Civil Engineer in my country, but the duties were not listed in Canadian definition of Civil Engineer. Shall I reapply, provided that I can get particular duties printed in my letters? Or, should I appeal?

I am not feeling well now, because I spent a lot of time and money for my application. I would appreciate if you could help me.

Regards,
Matt
 

asbereth

Hero Member
Feb 17, 2012
866
43
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
4012
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
16-02-2012<br>PR Fee Charged: 05-03-2012<br>PER Received..: 21-03-2012
Doc's Request.
26-02-2013<br>In process.....: 21-03-2013
Med's Request
22-03-2013
Med's Done....
26-03-2013 <br>Med's Received: 15-04-2013 <br>Decision Made: 15-04-2013
Passport Req..
16-04-2013
VISA ISSUED...
29-04-2013 <br>COPR ISSUED..: 15-05-2013<br>VISA RECEIVED: 16-05-2013
LANDED..........
16-05-2013
Hi Matt Sh., I'm assuming that, by PhD stream, you mean the one that was recently introduced under MI-4? And the reason for your rejection, I'm assuming, is because they don't recognize your work experience, therefore, not meeting the minimum of one year continuous work experience requirement?

With your application, did you include your TA/RA experience as well (with letters of reference, and everything)? If not, then re-applying with your TA/RA experience properly included may actually be worthwhile. We have found out that they accept TA/RA as paid work experience, so assuming that you have completed at least two years of RA/TA work, then you can easily claim at least one year of work experience through TA/RA (NOC 4122). Say you have done your PhD for 3 years. If there is no gap in your study (important), and if you're fully funded (which is mostly the case for most PhD students), you can easily claim more than 1,950 hours of continuous work experience, provided you can document the total number of hours properly (letters of reference with duty descriptions, funding details, etc).

With the equivalent of continuous full-time one year of TA/RA, a Master's degree [and 17+ years of education], 16 points for IELTS, and 5 adaptability points from previous study (which, once again, we have found out that you do not need to have completed a degree, but rather, just two full-time years in a gprogram), then you should have more than 67 points, even if they do NOT consider your previous work experience in your home country at all (several people [with only TA/RA experience] under these circumstances have gotten positive eligibility review from the CIO).

Another option is obviously to appeal, but then again, for your appeal to have any chance of success, then most likely you would have to submit new information or documentations, which they may or may not accept.

Anyway, you might want to check out the PhD stream thread. You can probably learn a lot by reading some of the posts there (since we actually did learn a lot on how the CIO works, issued PER, assign points, etc)

http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/applicant-from-phd-program-after-5-nov-2011-connect-here-to-get-status-t87348.0.html
 

Matt Sh.

Member
May 31, 2011
10
0
Hello,

Thanks a lot for your replies.

Zakout76: Yes, by email. I mentioned my office to be Buffalo, but got email from Ottawa. Think Buffalo is closed now, or something like that.

Asbereth: thanks a lot for your informative reply. As a matter of fact, I have been RAing full-time, and TAing part-time (i.e. 219 hours, and mentioned that in my application). However, our RA is a sort of Graduate Research Studentship (GRS) and University's HR would not give a letter for that. This can be reflected in Program Confirmation Letter though. I can only get a letter from my advisor saying that I have been working as a RA over the past three years. Do you think that would work? I did have a long conversation with HR to get a letter for RA, but they changed RA to GRS in 2009 and would not help us on that. What is your suggestion? Also, thanks for sending the threat.

Regards...
M.
 

Matt Sh.

Member
May 31, 2011
10
0
By the way, I have another question.

Can I modify the letters from companies and put in my next application package? Or, would they keep track of refused applications? Because, I also had participation in other projects in our companies, and I can get them write new duties in my letters?

Thanks,
M.
 

nano24482

Champion Member
Jan 30, 2010
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AOR Received.
27/08/2010
File Transfer...
27/04/2010

Matt Sh.

Member
May 31, 2011
10
0
Hi nano24482,

You are right, and this is exactly what I thought when I was applying. However, they have mentioned in the email that:

Subsection 75(2) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations states that a foreign national is a skilled worker if: a) within ten years preceding the date of their application for a permanent resident visa, they have at least one year of continuous full-time employment (37.5 hours/week) experience, or the equivalent in continuous part-time employment in one or more occupations, other than a restricted occupation, that are listed in Skill Type 0 Management Occupations or Skill Levels A or B of the National Occupational Classification matrix;

and because of not having at least one year of experience, they rejected me.
M.
 

nano24482

Champion Member
Jan 30, 2010
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New Delhi
NOC Code......
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Job Offer........
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28/02/2010
Doc's Request.
20/04/2010
AOR Received.
27/08/2010
File Transfer...
27/04/2010
Dear Matt,

I suggest you contact someone(if possible from your university itself) and get your filled up forms checked.
It seems that you have selected FSW1 category instead of PhD category.

Cos you don't need any experience for PhD stream.

Regards,
 

nano24482

Champion Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,082
63
Category........
Visa Office......
New Delhi
NOC Code......
7242
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28/02/2010
Doc's Request.
20/04/2010
AOR Received.
27/08/2010
File Transfer...
27/04/2010
In that case I suggest that you put up an appeal.
You can get the procedure in the forums.
 

nano24482

Champion Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,082
63
Category........
Visa Office......
New Delhi
NOC Code......
7242
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28/02/2010
Doc's Request.
20/04/2010
AOR Received.
27/08/2010
File Transfer...
27/04/2010
Dear Matt,

In any case if you plan to apply again or appeal than do not make any modifications in the papers you provided before.
As GCMS(CIC's system) now a days keep a scanned copy of our applications and supporting documents, which will turn up whenever you apply again and than it will be case of misrepresentation.
If you want than yo u can provide some additional documents to support your claim.

Though I still think there is some miscommunication in your case.
I checked the empty forms and the only category you can fill up is FSW and Economic.

Send them a letter stating that you have applied under PhD Stream(experience not required) than why is your refusal letter stating that...
 

asbereth

Hero Member
Feb 17, 2012
866
43
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
4012
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
16-02-2012<br>PR Fee Charged: 05-03-2012<br>PER Received..: 21-03-2012
Doc's Request.
26-02-2013<br>In process.....: 21-03-2013
Med's Request
22-03-2013
Med's Done....
26-03-2013 <br>Med's Received: 15-04-2013 <br>Decision Made: 15-04-2013
Passport Req..
16-04-2013
VISA ISSUED...
29-04-2013 <br>COPR ISSUED..: 15-05-2013<br>VISA RECEIVED: 16-05-2013
LANDED..........
16-05-2013
nano24482 said:
Dear Matt,

I suggest you contact someone(if possible from your university itself) and get your filled up forms checked.
It seems that you have selected FSW1 category instead of PhD category.

Cos you don't need any experience for PhD stream.

Regards,
Hi nano24482, I would like to mention that, even applying under the PhD stream, you still have to fulfill the minimum requirement for work experience (at least one year of continuous work experience within the last 10 years in Skill Level A, B, or O), and also the 67 points. It is not a CEC class, but rather, under FSW, so you are still subject to FSW requirements. The 2 years of PhD is just an eligibility criterion, similar to FSW1 and FSW2.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp

For your application to be eligible for processing, you must:

have a valid offer of arranged employment, OR
have one year of continuous full-time paid work experience in at least one of the occupations listed here * OR
be an international student enrolled in a PhD program in Canada (or graduated from a Canadian PhD program within the past 12 months) and meet certain criteria.

If your application is eligible for processing it will then be assessed against minimum requirements.

If you meet the above minimum requirements, your application will be processed according to the six selection factors in the skilled worker points grid,
Nowhere was it mentioned that you need not satisfy the six selection factors, or the minimum requirements if you're applying under PhD stream. It is just an eligibility criterion, that will enable you to be eligible for processing. Several weeks ago, there was a message on behalf of Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) to my school, that addresses exactly this:

CIC wishes to remind all applicants that the PhD eligibility stream introduced in November 2011 is not in and of itself a program for permanent residence and that meeting the requirements of the PhD stream does not guarantee an applicant will receive a visa for permanent residence. Rather, the PhD stream is a set of criteria that determines an applicant's eligibility for consideration under the Federal Skilled Worker Program, which is a program under which foreign nationals can obtain permanent residence in Canada. Applicants who are positively assessed against the PhD stream eligibility criteria – or the criteria of any of the other eligibility streams – must then fulfill the requirements of the Federal Skilled Worker Program, including that they have at least one year of continuous, paid work experience (full-time or the equivalent in part-time), in a skilled occupation (Skill Type 0, or Skill Level A or B as set out in the Canadian National Occupational Classification (NOC) list. Applicants will also be assessed against the selection factors in the skilled worker selection points grid and must be found admissible to Canada.
Matt Sh. said:
As a matter of fact, I have been RAing full-time, and TAing part-time (i.e. 219 hours, and mentioned that in my application). However, our RA is a sort of Graduate Research Studentship (GRS) and University's HR would not give a letter for that. This can be reflected in Program Confirmation Letter though. I can only get a letter from my advisor saying that I have been working as a RA over the past three years. Do you think that would work?
Hi Matt Sh., your situation is similar to mine (where RA changed to GRS several years back), and a lot of other people. Yes, it is possible to have your non-taxable RA experience count as paid work experience. If you check the link that I posted previously, you'll notice that early on, there were a lot of people wondering if it would be possible, and we have found out that, provided that you can document your total number of hours and duties properly, then you can have non-taxable RA experience count as well as paid work experience.

Again, as you said, the challenge is to document the total number of hours, for which I am sure that your HR or graduate studies office won't provide it. You have to have your supervisor do it for you, or at least sign it, and NOT the HR or GSO (and you will probably end up writing your own letter, so you can make sure that it has all the required components). People have done this, and they have gotten PER's, and even med requests, just by having work experience in RA/TA, and nothing else (provided, of course, you satisfy the minimum requirements and have at least 67 points).

I noticed you used the terms RA and GRS, and my school (Waterloo) uses the exact same terms as well. If you're also attending Waterloo, I know several people here that have done exactly what I did (letter from supervisor for RA/TA). The thing is, even the HR letter for TA is useless by itself because it contains no descriptions of what you are doing as a TA, only the funding information, so even for the taxable part of the income, just having the letter from HR won't be sufficient.

If you can manage at least 1,950 (continuous) hours from TA/RA, which is very possible after 2 years, 16 points for language, 10 points for age, and a Master's degree with at least 17 years of education, then you should have more than 67 points if you are eligible under PhD stream (since having completed two years of PhD means that you are eligible for the 5 adaptability points for previous study).

Several applicants have their applications rejected because they relied on these 5 adaptability points to get above 67 points, but have successfully appealed, and have their negative decision overturned by the CIO (since it is mentioned in the instruction guide that you need not have completed a degree for these 5 points, but rather only two years of study).

Good luck, and let us know what you will end up doing :)
 

fazeel

Hero Member
Jan 26, 2011
616
2
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Pakistan
Dear math,
there is no mistake on your part and there is no misunderstading on visa officer part. This is planned stupid act by immigration office.

Sending reconsideration letter is usless they are bloody idiots. Really
 

Matt Sh.

Member
May 31, 2011
10
0
Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your posts here. I think the best way for me is to reapply using my RA/TA experiences.

asbereth! I am also studying at UW, and as you said, I will talk to my supervisor to sign the letter for me. Can we possibly meet in Waterloo? I think your knowledge in this issue is remarkable, and your comments would certainly help me so much in my second application. My email address is kw.stats.tutor[att]gmail[dutt]come. I am currently out of country, but will be back on June 29. Thanks again!

Matt
 

asbereth

Hero Member
Feb 17, 2012
866
43
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
4012
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
16-02-2012<br>PR Fee Charged: 05-03-2012<br>PER Received..: 21-03-2012
Doc's Request.
26-02-2013<br>In process.....: 21-03-2013
Med's Request
22-03-2013
Med's Done....
26-03-2013 <br>Med's Received: 15-04-2013 <br>Decision Made: 15-04-2013
Passport Req..
16-04-2013
VISA ISSUED...
29-04-2013 <br>COPR ISSUED..: 15-05-2013<br>VISA RECEIVED: 16-05-2013
LANDED..........
16-05-2013
Hi Matt Sh., that might be a good idea. Let's meet up when you're back here. Send me a PM to coordinate. There does seem to still be some sort of ambiguity regarding the adaptability points for previous study, but otherwise, things were as expected.