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Refugee status cessation and PRs applying for citizenship

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,862
22,119
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Hello everyone,
I would need your suggestions @scylla @dpenabill. I will explain my whole story and try to make it short and easy. I know you will not give me legal advice but I found you have been following these cases for a long time and I will appreciate your advice.

Refugee case:
I came to Canada in 2018 and asked for protection. My case was accepted in October 2019. My PR was approved in December 2021.

During the process, the IRCC asked me for a police certificate from China as I spent 2 years in China as a student. I applied for a police certificate (one of my friends in China did for me) and they approved the Chinese version but when my friend asked them to translate it into English, the guy was asking for a valid passport because my previous passport was expired. But the other guy by mistake approved the Chinese version and did not check the passport copy which was expired. And then I applied for my country's passport which I did not know not to do. Anyhow it took time and then I took the Chinese version to the translator in Montreal and they translated it for me. My Pr was approved then.

In the meantime. I got an award from the Chinese Scholarship Council for the research I was doing and they sent my money to my Chinese bank which I was not using anymore. I called the bank and they asked for my old passport copy. I called the CBSA to give me my old passport they seized so I can provide it to them to release the money for me. And they provided me with my old passport.

PhD study: (not to show that I am highly educated just giving the snapshot of the whole story)

I applied for Ph.D. admission in one of Canada's best universities and I got admission and funding too. I was supposed to start in September 2021 but I requested deferral due to some issues. My mom went two surgeries back in my country In November 2021.
Then I was supposed to be starting in January 2022 but again my mom's situation was not good and the doctor was asking for another surgery. I emailed my Professor and asked again for deferral and mentioned that Mom is sick. I have that email in my history.

Then I started My PhD in May 2022. I was awarded the most prestigious award by the Natural Science and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC) and was ranked in the top 10 candidates in the whole of Canada. After I got many other awards for my PhD, many of them very prestigious from NSERC.

Marriage/ Relationship:

I was in contact with someone back in my home country in 2018 and then my parents did my engagement in 2019 when I was already in Canada. We were in contact from 2018 until our marriage.

Trips to home country:

As I mentioned above when I was getting a Chinese police clearance certificate I applied for my home country's passport. I got the passport later after some time.

1) when the doctor asked for third surgery for my Mom, Mom said I am not doing any more surgeries and she was asking for me because i did not meet her for 4 years.
2) there was no option for me but to go to my home country in March 2022 as I already asked my professor that my mom is sick and I cannot start my studies.
3) I visited my home country and after 17 days they scheduled the surgery. In the meantime, I also got married as she was waiting for me since 2018 and this was also my mom's wish to get married in front of her and case something goes wrong in the surgery.
4) The surgery went well and she is good now.
"here was my first trip to my country" (45 days)

After coming back I submitted a spousal sponsorship application. which is now in process for the last 15 months. I ordered GCMS notes and nothing was mentioned about me but the officer said the marriage is valid and an interview was required.

The IRCC also asked for the spousal application ADR and asked for chats, money transfer bills, and a Visit of Spr. I provided them with chats and money transfer receipts and wrote a letter that I did not visit because of my study and research obligations.

All the processing time, my wife was depressed and a miscarriage has also happened. Because of stress, she was passing out every second day and was m, missing me.
she attempted suicide (i don't want to say but have no option now) and I bought it a ticket right away to visit her. They did some dialysis and stuff while she was in the hospital. I left my classes and everything to go but my flight was delayed 24 hours and when I reached they already left the hospital. She is seeing a Psychiatrist now and doing well somehow
"Second trip after one year" (four weeks)

Port of entry officer question:
First trip:

the officer asked why I visited and I told her my mom was sick. she said you know you can not go and I said yes but I was in hiding and Mom was really sick. She took my passport and PR and went and did something. I don't know and then She came and asked for a Medical report and I told her that I did not bring it because I didn't know and told her if you need I can provide it later.

She said next time when you go bring the medical report with you and gave me back the passport and PR.

Now I don't know if she initiated the cessation or not but now I am thinking not because she shouldn't tell me to bring a medical report next time if I go again.

2nd trip:
when I come back the officer said why I visited and I said to see my wife I had the medical reports this time but he did not ask for it. just did something in the computer and gave me back the passport and PR.

Possibility of Cessation: (did not know these things before and was never educated by anyone)
I called the MP office to inquire why it is taking long for the spousal application. Every time they were just providing me with the status. I asked to speak to the MP because I did not want my wife to be alone anymore.
In the meantime, I applied 2 times for TRV and both times it was refused due to no family ties outside of home country.

The MP office contacted the Montreal call center about the refusal of the 2nd TRV because it was applied after the new policy spousal TRV.

Then I talked to the MP and she asked how you came to Canada and then she said you can't go back to your home country. From there I started looking into the immigration policies and found this thread.

I ordered another set of GCMS notes for the last refused TRV and received the TRV GCMS notes today.
There is mentioned in the notes:
Date: 2023/06/15
office: Montreal call center
TEXT: MP office status inquiry (no action). Provided TRV x2 refusal rationale. FC1 is under review. SPR returned to the Country of persecution on possibly two occasions. CR-3783

Today, I am shaking seeing these notes in the TRV GCMS notes.

The Spousal application GCMS notes I received on 2023/06/29 and there was nothing about me.

Next step:
Now I really need your advice on what to do. I am not sure if they initiated cessation for me or not.
I am in stress and can't focus on my studies anymore.

this is the 2nd year of my Ph.D. and I don't want something to happen to me.

If they really start doing the cessation what should I do?

All these things happened due to a lack of knowledge and were out of my control because the passport I applied for to get the police certificate and visited both times to my county due to an emergency. Also, I plead my country because of the Taliban, and the guy who was after, died in 2021, and then no one was caring about me. But still, when I visited I was hidden and never went outside just stayed in my home.

Option:
I am not sure if they will initiate or not the cessation process but I am really disappointed.
Before something happens, now I am thinking to apply for US green card based on an advanced degree and research. I have a strong profile with many research publications and national awards in Canada and outside. And I am sure I will complete my degree before any decision.

Please suggest, I am confused and sorry for the long story.
You both renewed your home country passport and returned to your home country. IRCC/CBSA can certainly say this is reavailement and pursue cessation. I have no idea if they will do this or not. In terms of what you should do, probably best to get legal advice and get a consult with an immigration lawyer.
 
Aug 4, 2023
11
1
You both renewed your home country passport and returned to your home country. IRCC/CBSA can certainly say this is reavailement and pursue cessation. I have no idea if they will do this or not. In terms of what you should do, probably best to get legal advice and get a consult with an immigration lawyer.
Thank you for your reply.
I am really worried about these notes and do not know the CR-3783 code means.
Date: 2023/06/15
office: Montreal call center
TEXT: MP office status inquiry (no action). Provided TRV x2 refusal rationale. FC1 is under review. SPR returned to the Country of persecution on possibly two occasions. CR-3783
 
Aug 4, 2023
11
1
Thank you for your reply.
I am really worried about these notes and do not know the CR-3783 code means.
Date: 2023/06/15
office: Montreal call center
TEXT: MP office status inquiry (no action). Provided TRV x2 refusal rationale. FC1 is under review. SPR returned to the Country of persecution on possibly two occasions. CR-3783
Also if you can suggest any good lawyer in GTA area? I would be grateful for your help
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,862
22,119
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Thank you for your reply.
I am really worried about these notes and do not know the CR-3783 code means.
Date: 2023/06/15
office: Montreal call center
TEXT: MP office status inquiry (no action). Provided TRV x2 refusal rationale. FC1 is under review. SPR returned to the Country of persecution on possibly two occasions. CR-3783
Sorry, I don't know.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
95,862
22,119
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Also if you can suggest any good lawyer in GTA area? I would be grateful for your help
I've never worked with an immigration lawyer. Wait for recommendations from others.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
The Wu v. Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2023 FC 1071 https://canlii.ca/t/jzgzp decision is very much in line with most of those being seen now. Does not offer much insight into the risk of cessation for a PR who has only minimally engaged in conduct that will support cessation.

I have not looked closely at the "vacation" side of things, and may later, but a lot of the defenses that might save a PR-refugee from cessation will not help much, if at all, in a vacation proceeding based on misrepresentation. Will try to look more at this part of things later.

I will explain my whole story and try to make it short and easy. I know you will not give me legal advice but I found you have been following these cases for a long time and I will appreciate your advice.
You have done a very good job outlining the situation. But as @scylla has noted, this is Get-A-Lawyer time. Or, wait and take your chances and get a lawyer if and when cessation proceedings are started. I cannot offer any suggestions about which lawyer to hire.

Whether to pursue a Green Card, and how that would go, I cannot say, I do not know.

"If they really start doing the cessation what should I do?"​

If you do not hire a lawyer soon, you definitely should if and when cessation proceedings are underway.

In the meantime: no more using the home country passport. No more travel to the home country. And so on.

By the way: the I did not know, no one told me defense, does not seem to get much traction . . . perhaps I did not understand might work better. Obviously only go with whichever is true. But most of what we see suggests that the government is not buying claims that the information about not returning to home country et al was not provided.

Please keep us informed about how this goes. Good luck with it.


Hello everyone,
I would need your suggestions @scylla @dpenabill. I will explain my whole story and try to make it short and easy. I know you will not give me legal advice but I found you have been following these cases for a long time and I will appreciate your advice.

Refugee case:
I came to Canada in 2018 and asked for protection. My case was accepted in October 2019. My PR was approved in December 2021.

During the process, the IRCC asked me for a police certificate from China as I spent 2 years in China as a student. I applied for a police certificate (one of my friends in China did for me) and they approved the Chinese version but when my friend asked them to translate it into English, the guy was asking for a valid passport because my previous passport was expired. But the other guy by mistake approved the Chinese version and did not check the passport copy which was expired. And then I applied for my country's passport which I did not know not to do. Anyhow it took time and then I took the Chinese version to the translator in Montreal and they translated it for me. My Pr was approved then.

In the meantime. I got an award from the Chinese Scholarship Council for the research I was doing and they sent my money to my Chinese bank which I was not using anymore. I called the bank and they asked for my old passport copy. I called the CBSA to give me my old passport they seized so I can provide it to them to release the money for me. And they provided me with my old passport.

PhD study: (not to show that I am highly educated just giving the snapshot of the whole story)

I applied for Ph.D. admission in one of Canada's best universities and I got admission and funding too. I was supposed to start in September 2021 but I requested deferral due to some issues. My mom went two surgeries back in my country In November 2021.
Then I was supposed to be starting in January 2022 but again my mom's situation was not good and the doctor was asking for another surgery. I emailed my Professor and asked again for deferral and mentioned that Mom is sick. I have that email in my history.

Then I started My PhD in May 2022. I was awarded the most prestigious award by the Natural Science and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC) and was ranked in the top 10 candidates in the whole of Canada. After I got many other awards for my PhD, many of them very prestigious from NSERC.

Marriage/ Relationship:

I was in contact with someone back in my home country in 2018 and then my parents did my engagement in 2019 when I was already in Canada. We were in contact from 2018 until our marriage.

Trips to home country:

As I mentioned above when I was getting a Chinese police clearance certificate I applied for my home country's passport. I got the passport later after some time.

1) when the doctor asked for third surgery for my Mom, Mom said I am not doing any more surgeries and she was asking for me because i did not meet her for 4 years.
2) there was no option for me but to go to my home country in March 2022 as I already asked my professor that my mom is sick and I cannot start my studies.
3) I visited my home country and after 17 days they scheduled the surgery. In the meantime, I also got married as she was waiting for me since 2018 and this was also my mom's wish to get married in front of her and case something goes wrong in the surgery.
4) The surgery went well and she is good now.
"here was my first trip to my country" (45 days)

After coming back I submitted a spousal sponsorship application. which is now in process for the last 15 months. I ordered GCMS notes and nothing was mentioned about me but the officer said the marriage is valid and an interview was required.

The IRCC also asked for the spousal application ADR and asked for chats, money transfer bills, and a Visit of Spr. I provided them with chats and money transfer receipts and wrote a letter that I did not visit because of my study and research obligations.

All the processing time, my wife was depressed and a miscarriage has also happened. Because of stress, she was passing out every second day and was m, missing me.
she attempted suicide (i don't want to say but have no option now) and I bought it a ticket right away to visit her. They did some dialysis and stuff while she was in the hospital. I left my classes and everything to go but my flight was delayed 24 hours and when I reached they already left the hospital. She is seeing a Psychiatrist now and doing well somehow
"Second trip after one year" (four weeks)

Port of entry officer question:
First trip:

the officer asked why I visited and I told her my mom was sick. she said you know you can not go and I said yes but I was in hiding and Mom was really sick. She took my passport and PR and went and did something. I don't know and then She came and asked for a Medical report and I told her that I did not bring it because I didn't know and told her if you need I can provide it later.

She said next time when you go bring the medical report with you and gave me back the passport and PR.

Now I don't know if she initiated the cessation or not but now I am thinking not because she shouldn't tell me to bring a medical report next time if I go again.

2nd trip:
when I come back the officer said why I visited and I said to see my wife I had the medical reports this time but he did not ask for it. just did something in the computer and gave me back the passport and PR.

Possibility of Cessation: (did not know these things before and was never educated by anyone)
I called the MP office to inquire why it is taking long for the spousal application. Every time they were just providing me with the status. I asked to speak to the MP because I did not want my wife to be alone anymore.
In the meantime, I applied 2 times for TRV and both times it was refused due to no family ties outside of home country.

The MP office contacted the Montreal call center about the refusal of the 2nd TRV because it was applied after the new policy spousal TRV.

Then I talked to the MP and she asked how you came to Canada and then she said you can't go back to your home country. From there I started looking into the immigration policies and found this thread.

I ordered another set of GCMS notes for the last refused TRV and received the TRV GCMS notes today.
There is mentioned in the notes:
Date: 2023/06/15
office: Montreal call center
TEXT: MP office status inquiry (no action). Provided TRV x2 refusal rationale. FC1 is under review. SPR returned to the Country of persecution on possibly two occasions. CR-3783
 
  • Like
Reactions: scylla
Aug 4, 2023
11
1
The Wu v. Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2023 FC 1071 https://canlii.ca/t/jzgzp decision is very much in line with most of those being seen now. Does not offer much insight into the risk of cessation for a PR who has only minimally engaged in conduct that will support cessation.

I have not looked closely at the "vacation" side of things, and may later, but a lot of the defenses that might save a PR-refugee from cessation will not help much, if at all, in a vacation proceeding based on misrepresentation. Will try to look more at this part of things later.



You have done a very good job outlining the situation. But as @scylla has noted, this is Get-A-Lawyer time. Or, wait and take your chances and get a lawyer if and when cessation proceedings are started. I cannot offer any suggestions about which lawyer to hire.

Whether to pursue a Green Card, and how that would go, I cannot say, I do not know.

"If they really start doing the cessation what should I do?"​

If you do not hire a lawyer soon, you definitely should if and when cessation proceedings are underway.

In the meantime: no more using the home country passport. No more travel to the home country. And so on.

By the way: the I did not know, no one told me defense, does not seem to get much traction . . . perhaps I did not understand might work better. Obviously only go with whichever is true. But most of what we see suggests that the government is not buying claims that the information about not returning to home country et al was not provided.

Please keep us informed about how this goes. Good luck with it.
thank you for your suggestion. If I get a lawyer now can he do something? because I don't know if they will initiate the cessation or not. I am just guessing now.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
thank you for your suggestion. If I get a lawyer now can he do something? because I don't know if they will initiate the cessation or not. I am just guessing now.
That is, it seems there is a large number of PR-refugees who do things like obtain a home country passport and use it to travel, including travel to the home country, among whom only some face cessation. Thus, there appears to be a significant gap between who is subjected to cessation proceedings compared to who has engaged in actions which could lead to cessation.

You are clearly among the latter. Passport plus travel leads to a presumption of reavailment (which is grounds for cessation).

You also appear to have been flagged (high likelihood you are flagged). After just one trip, and second noted. That does not necessarily mean a cessation investigation has been started, let alone cessation proceedings triggered. But it appears your trips caught CBSA's attention and it has noted them, so at the very least you are on their radar.

The majority, a big majority of the cases we see, typically involve more trips or longer trips. But there have been some involving just a couple trips and, the big reason we have a problem even guessing how things will go, we see just a tiny sliver of actual cases.

So, whether you will be subject to cessation proceedings is very, very difficult to forecast. This is one area in which an experienced immigration lawyer, one who handles refugee cases, might be useful. I do not know what such lawyers charge for a consultation these days (skip free consultations, which are worth little if any more than what you pay for). I do not know whether or not a lawyer can reliably say what the risk or probability is for you. But an experienced lawyer should have a lot more exposure to actual cases, to the government's actual practices, than anyone here. Which should mean they probably have more insight into what the odds are.

Whether it is worth the cost for a consultation now rather than waiting to see if cessation proceedings are initiated is a personal matter, depending of course on things like your finances.

Whether it is worth starting a relationship with a qualified lawyer, someone you could turn to on short notice to get going on your behalf, is likewise a personal choice, likewise depending on whether you can afford it.

A looming difficulty is that CBSA and IRCC seem to take their time, a lot of time, deciding if to proceed and when to proceed. There is no statute of limitations, so the government has no time limit on how long it takes to investigate the possibility of cessation. As you could see if you looked at the case that @scylla linked (also linked by me in response), in that case the PR-refugee traveled to the home country between 2011 and 2017. Her cessation case did not go before the RPD until October 2021. We have seen many, many that took longer, many years.

I understand the difficult circumstances compelling your travel to the home country, and the reasons for those trips can be a defense that helps a PR-refugee avoid cessation. But having compelling reasons for the trips is not guaranteed to block cessation. Tough situation. Best I can offer, apart from seeing a lawyer, getting more information and some professional advice, is avoid any further use of the passport, and for sure (if possible) any further travel using the passport. Again, hoping this goes well . . . even if, unfortunately, it may takes years of no news to know if it is indeed going well.
 
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Reactions: scylla

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
Some follow-up in regards to Wu v. Canada and observations about another cessation and vacation decision Ede v. Canada

This is to offer some follow-up in regards to the Wu v. Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2023 FC 1071 https://canlii.ca/t/jzgzp decision and the "vacation" of status side of things. As I previously alluded, a lot of the defenses that might save a PR-refugee from cessation will not help much, if at all, in a vacation proceeding based on misrepresentation.

Additionally, there is a reference in the Wu decision to an earlier cessation case I have not referenced in the forum before, so far as I can recall: Ede v. Canada, 2021 FC 804, https://canlii.ca/t/jhbqm which is a decision by Justice Norris. This is now a two year old decision but is worth reviewing for a couple reasons. One reason is that the cessation action itself was, apparently, triggered by just four trips to the home country, at least two of which (and perhaps three) occurred before the change in law, that is, at a time when a PR-refugee's trips to the home country had no legal consequences that would affect PR status.

The other is that like Wu, there is a vacation of status decision involved as well, but in this Ede case that was set aside.


Wu v. Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2023 FC 1071 https://canlii.ca/t/jzgzp

In particular, in addition to cessation, Guo Ying Wu was determined to have made misrepresentations constituting grounds to vacate the decision allowing her refugee protection under Section 109 IRPA . . . see statute here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-13.html#h-275723

Similar to the effect of cessation (except cessation based on 108(1)(e) IRPA), on a final determination under Section 109, to vacate a decision allowing refugee or other protected person status, that will automatically result in the loss (termination) of PR status. (This is section 46(1)(d) IRPA; automatic loss of PR status for cessation is section 46(1)(c.1) IRPA.)

A Quibbling Clarification:

Justice Fuhrer states that "The Respondent successfully brought concurrent applications to cease and to vacate the Applicant’s permanent resident status under subsection 108(2) and section 109" of IRPA.

In terms of the overall, practical effect, yes that the outcome. But in terms of what the actual procedure was, it is almost certain that the Respondent successfully brought concurrent applications to cease and to vacate the Applicant’s refugee status (not PR status) under subsection 108(2) and section 109" of IRPA. The RPD determination of cessation, and vacation respectively, as to refugee status, operate as a matter of law to terminate PR status.

Yeah, I am being very picky. And yeah, much worse is too often seen. I have seen a Federal Court justice refer to a PR's application for a new PR card as an application to renew their "PR visa." Oh well.

The reason for pointing this out, however, is to note and emphasize that even official sources need to be read and understood in context, with consideration given to other sources, and to be careful about giving too much weight to particular words or language.

Which leads to what Justice Fuhrer refers to as "Additional Background." Lots of poor labeling going on. Confusion and conflict over just what RPD decision was properly before the Federal Court. Justice Fuhrer's ruling more or less brushes that aside and proceeds to deal with the substantive merits of both the cessation and vacation determinations. As a practical outcome that makes good sense, largely for the reasons Justice Fuhrer gives.

But it helps if everyone involved, the lawyers, the Minister, the RPD, and especially the Federal Court, keep their act together and properly designate the elements of what is before the court to be decided. (Us legalese nerds have enough to figure out even if they get all their terms and such right.)

Which leads to Ede v. Canada, 2021 FC 804 . . .
Note: Ede involves two PR-refugees; one subject to cessation, which was upheld; the other subject to vacation, which was set aside.​

Ede v. Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2021 FC 804 https://canlii.ca/t/jhbqm

In the Wu decision Justice Fuhrer references this decision by Justice Norris. In turn, Justice Norris quotes the RPD that made the decision being reviewed. One thing that caught my attention was the RPD stating:
". . . we don’t get to do vacation cessation applications very often and therefore we’re not familiar [sic]. I don’t claim to be entirely familiar with the type of evidence that we face."​

That appears to be the RPD's excuse for butchering reason in the analysis of what the evidence proves. Justice Norris dismantles the RPD's reasoning (which is rather bereft of logic) and concludes the RPD's determination that there was misrepresentation (by omission, by withholding material information) was "unreasonable" in that the central finding "lacks justification, intelligibility and transparency" which in turn "renders the decision as a whole unreasonable."

All of which illustrates that these processes are subject to the flaws and foibles of the people who administer the system. This is not to suggest any judgment about the nature and extent of overall problems in the system, any conclusions about whether it does justice or not. In general, my sense is it does justice about as well as can be reasonably, rationally expected. Expecting perfection, even close to perfection, is misguided.

From Justice Fuhrer mischaracterizing the RPD determinations being reviewed, to another Federal Court justice mischaracterizing the application for a PR card as one to renew a PR visa, and from the tangled procedural mess that Justice Fuhrer unraveled, to the RPD just massacring logic in its assessment of evidence in the Ede case, among so many other examples, yes, yes indeed, the system falls far shy of being perfect. But its failures should be approached in context, with due regard for the incredibly complex and difficult cases, both in terms of facts and in terms of issues, and giving due regard to how well things work in the vast majority of the cases, in nearly all but for some bumps and blemishes along the way.

And the latter is why there is a right of appeal for many of the dispositive decisions that can be made affecting status, including in particular PR status. And in addition to the right of appeal, further review is often available if and when there is fair cause for further review. The review procedure is very much about recognizing imperfections exist in the system and there is sometimes flawed decision-making, and providing a means for addressing and remedying these.

Meanwhile, I am not sure how noteworthy or informative it is, but to my eyes (which, confess, see through an experienced litigator's lens, which however largely derives from old not recent history) the nature and scope of the RPD's lack of reason, lack of logic, demands attention. The scope of it is somewhat buried in Justice Norris' detailed analysis. But the gist of it is that the RPD made some rather bizarre (in terms of logic) conclusions.

One was that Ede must have known he was convicted of the crime, a drug trafficking offence more than a decade prior to the conviction (allegedly in 2001), because the court's decision and Interpol flag ("Red Notice") referenced Mr. Ede being present in the court in 2012 when the conviction was entered. The evidence, however, rather demonstrably showed that Mr. Ede was not even in Turkey at the time of the trial and conviction. And there is no explanation for Mr. Ede not being in custody, if he was actually present then and there, given the severity of the crime and lengthy sentence of incarceration imposed. That conclusion was a key factor in the RPD concluding that Mr. Ede was not credible when Mr. Ede denied knowing he had been convicted in 2012 of this crime. And based on that the RPD concluded Mr. Ede must have known there was an outstanding charge against him for the drug offence (back in 2001) when Mr. Ede's made a claim for refugee protection in 2005.

By the way, the RPD concluded that Mr. Ede had not provided "irrefutable proof" he was not present in court at the time of the trial in 2012, imposing an unreasonable burden of proof, particularly in conjunction with the RPD's failure to explain why the RPD in effect dismissed the extensive and strong evidence he was not present at the time of the trial.

Mr. Ede is not home free. Justice Norris ruled that he could still be subject to cessation, just as his wife had been. Even though it appears that it had been more than seven years since Ede visited Turkey (perhaps longer; his wife had in 2014). Illustrating that there is no statute of limitations on when the government can pursue cessation.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
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The significance of most new cases, now, is largely nuance. Even though on its face this case is a *win* for Mr. Fazl Minalloh Muhammad Anvar, the cessation of status decision set aside, it is not likely that he is home free. In this decision, Anvar v. Canada, 2023 FC 1194, https://canlii.ca/t/jzzj6 , Justice Avvy Yao-Yao Go allows the application for judicial review and returns the case to be redetermined by a differently constituted panel of the RPD, which is the standard outcome when the applicant in effect wins the appeal. But the majority of the decision documents why the RPD's decisions were reasonable with just one exception, the exception for which the appeal was granted. And as to that one exception, regarding the state of the PR/refugee's knowledge that returning to the home country could put their refugee status in jeopardy, Justice Go does not even suggest the evidence favours the PR/refugee and states that the RPD's failure to consider the PR/refugee's subjective knowledge "did not rise to a reviewable error," but, rather, given the seriousness of the consequences, Justice Go decided the "appropriate" outcome was to send the matter back for redetermination, a redetermination in which the evidence as to the PR/refugee's subjective knowledge or awareness, could be included in the RPD's decision-making.

I do not know how it will go, but I suspect the risk of a negative outcome remains substantial if not probable.

The most recent date this refugee returned to the home country, as alleged in the cessation case, was 2015. It is hard to say how long cessation proceedings had been pending, but at minimum this signals CBSA/IRCC are still proceeding with cessation based on conduct many years ago.
 
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alexmathew244

Full Member
Sep 12, 2023
20
5
The significance of most new cases, now, is largely nuance. Even though on its face this case is a *win* for Mr. Fazl Minalloh Muhammad Anvar, the cessation of status decision set aside, it is not likely that he is home free. In this decision, Anvar v. Canada, 2023 FC 1194, https://canlii.ca/t/jzzj6 , Justice Avvy Yao-Yao Go allows the application for judicial review and returns the case to be redetermined by a differently constituted panel of the RPD, which is the standard outcome when the applicant in effect wins the appeal. But the majority of the decision documents why the RPD's decisions were reasonable with just one exception, the exception for which the appeal was granted. And as to that one exception, regarding the state of the PR/refugee's knowledge that returning to the home country could put their refugee status in jeopardy, Justice Go does not even suggest the evidence favours the PR/refugee and states that the RPD's failure to consider the PR/refugee's subjective knowledge "did not rise to a reviewable error," but, rather, given the seriousness of the consequences, Justice Go decided the "appropriate" outcome was to send the matter back for redetermination, a redetermination in which the evidence as to the PR/refugee's subjective knowledge or awareness, could be included in the RPD's decision-making.

I do not know how it will go, but I suspect the risk of a negative outcome remains substantial if not probable.

The most recent date this refugee returned to the home country, as alleged in the cessation case, was 2015. It is hard to say how long cessation proceedings had been pending, but at minimum this signals CBSA/IRCC are still proceeding with cessation based on conduct many years ago.
Thanks for the detailed reply. This Camayo case happened very recently (fall 2022) so the majority of the cases are now getting Judicial Review Granted based on the Camayo case. Do you think this is getting better now? There is one article that I found: https://cila.co/refugee-cessation-the-year-since-galindo-camayo/
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Thanks for the detailed reply. This Camayo case happened very recently (fall 2022) so the majority of the cases are now getting Judicial Review Granted based on the Camayo case. Do you think this is getting better now? There is one article that I found: https://cila.co/refugee-cessation-the-year-since-galindo-camayo/
The article you reference and link is a good summary, and provides an illuminating explanation of key elements in regards to cessation; obviously better written than my clumsy efforts. The link is appreciated.

The article is a little dated, however, given extensive treatment of the Camayo decision in numerous subsequent cases, and the article is focused on cessation proceedings. To my view it is really, really important to repeat and emphasize the message that PR-refugees should NOT obtain a home country passport, NOT use a home country passport if they have obtained one, NOT use it again if they already have, AND FOR SURE, do NOT travel to the home country, and if they already have, do NOT travel to home country again.

Clarification: the key Camayo decision, by the Federal Court of Appeals, was issued in March 2022, more than a year and a half ago. I began my coverage and analysis of this decision here, in this forum, April 6, 2022, post #599 in this thread in particular:
Camayo is a significant case because just this last month (March 29, 2022) the Federal Court of Appeal upheld Federal Court Justice Fuhrer's decision to remand to the RPD to determine the PR/refugee's "intent" and . . .
. . . and overall have addressed, in nearly a dozen posts in this thread alone since then, the impact of Camayo, as reflected in numerous other decisions addressing and applying the prescription dictated by the Federal Court of Appeal. Warrants noting that there are several dozen FC decisions which cite the Camayo FCA decision. Most of the decisions @scylla and I reference, above, in posts over the course of the last year, deal with Camayo to some extent. In my posts #741, 742, back in May, I go into a fairly deep dive regarding how Camayo has been applied . . . focused on distinguishing the consideration of criteria as prescribed by Camayo in contrast to the negative (cessation) outcomes nonetheless; in particular I discuss several cases in which Camayo factors played a significant role but still, in most the RPD's cessation decision is upheld.

"Do you think this is getting better now?"​

In general, it does not appear that the Camayo decision is helping all that many PR-refugees save their status when they become subject to cessation proceedings based on reavailment for having obtained a passport from their home country, and traveling there. It may have some influence in the CBSA/IRCC decision-making as to whether to prosecute cessation, and may be facilitating SOME successful defenses before the IRB, but that's information we just don't have. We are almost clueless in regards to who, when, and why some who travel to the home country are spared cessation proceedings and others are not, other than the obvious, the obvious being that multiple trips to the home country, and/or lengthy stays in the home country, clearly increase the risk of cessation proceedings and loss of status.

There is NO doubt that for now, and for the foreseeable future, as already noted, PR-refugees should NOT obtain a home country passport, NOT use a home country passport if they have obtained one, NOT use it again if they already have, AND FOR SURE, do NOT travel to the home country . . . allowing, again, if they have already traveled to the home country, do NOT do that again . . . not unless and not until Canadian citizenship is obtained. Camayo has not diminished the importance of this.

Beyond that, in terms of whether things are "better," I generally steer clear of value judgments. I have made something of an exception in regards to cessation but that was in large part rooted in how the change in law (2012) was implemented and applied, used to strip PRs of their Canadian status based on conduct which, at the time they did it, had no legal impact on their status as Canadians. Even though the courts ruled to the contrary, this change had a severe retroactive effect, in effect punishing Canadians (remember, PRs are Canadians under the Canadian immigration system, not Foreign Nationals) for actions taken prior to the adoption of law. That is, before December 2012 a PR-refugee could travel to their home country and that would have NO impact on their status. After December 2012, not only would PR-refugees face potential cessation if they traveled to their home country, they could be subject to cessation, and a large number were, for having traveled to the home country YEARS before 2012. That's the sort of ex post facto law that is, on its face, blatantly unjust and draconian.

It was as if they lowered the speed limit on a roadway and then issued tickets for going faster than that before they changed the speed limit . . . except the consequences for cessation are far, far more severe, for some potentially life-threatening.

But given the passage of time in the meantime, that is less an issue. There appear to still be a few backlogged cases involving cessation based on conduct before 2012, before the change in law, but most (by a lot) involve cessation based on acts taking place since the change in law. PR-refugees should now be aware that cessation for reavailment can apply to them and it would be prudent to act accordingly. Which leads to the other objectionable aspect of this . . .

The other objectionable, and outright offensive aspect of the change in law regarding cessation, was rooted in the fact that the consequences for obtaining and using a home country passport, or traveling to the home country, were often NOT explained to PR-refugees. Some were actually given their passports back. Until around 2015 or so, call centre agents were advising PR-refugees that yes, they needed a home country passport when making an application for citizenship. The article you link talks a little about this and suggests that new refugees are still (well, as of a year or so ago) not being clearly advised about reavailment and cessation.

Hopefully the word is out now and PR-refugees are getting a clear message, which is worth repeating at least one more time:
PR-refugees should NOT obtain a home country passport, NOT use a home country passport if they have obtained one, NOT use it again if they already have, AND FOR SURE, do NOT travel to the home country, and if they already have, do NOT travel to home country again.
 
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scylla

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05-10-2010
The significance of most new cases, now, is largely nuance. Even though on its face this case is a *win* for Mr. Fazl Minalloh Muhammad Anvar, the cessation of status decision set aside, it is not likely that he is home free. In this decision, Anvar v. Canada, 2023 FC 1194, https://canlii.ca/t/jzzj6 , Justice Avvy Yao-Yao Go allows the application for judicial review and returns the case to be redetermined by a differently constituted panel of the RPD, which is the standard outcome when the applicant in effect wins the appeal. But the majority of the decision documents why the RPD's decisions were reasonable with just one exception, the exception for which the appeal was granted. And as to that one exception, regarding the state of the PR/refugee's knowledge that returning to the home country could put their refugee status in jeopardy, Justice Go does not even suggest the evidence favours the PR/refugee and states that the RPD's failure to consider the PR/refugee's subjective knowledge "did not rise to a reviewable error," but, rather, given the seriousness of the consequences, Justice Go decided the "appropriate" outcome was to send the matter back for redetermination, a redetermination in which the evidence as to the PR/refugee's subjective knowledge or awareness, could be included in the RPD's decision-making.

I do not know how it will go, but I suspect the risk of a negative outcome remains substantial if not probable.

The most recent date this refugee returned to the home country, as alleged in the cessation case, was 2015. It is hard to say how long cessation proceedings had been pending, but at minimum this signals CBSA/IRCC are still proceeding with cessation based on conduct many years ago.
Thanks for this analysis. I was wondering / thinking the same thing - i.e. whether the ultimate outcome will still be negative.
 

alexmathew244

Full Member
Sep 12, 2023
20
5
The article you reference and link is a good summary, and provides an illuminating explanation of key elements in regards to cessation; obviously better written than my clumsy efforts. The link is appreciated.

The article is a little dated, however, given extensive treatment of the Camayo decision in numerous subsequent cases, and the article is focused on cessation proceedings. To my view it is really, really important to repeat and emphasize the message that PR-refugees should NOT obtain a home country passport, NOT use a home country passport if they have obtained one, NOT use it again if they already have, AND FOR SURE, do NOT travel to the home country, and if they already have, do NOT travel to home country again.

Clarification: the key Camayo decision, by the Federal Court of Appeals, was issued in March 2022, more than a year and a half ago. I began my coverage and analysis of this decision here, in this forum, April 6, 2022, post #599 in this thread in particular:

. . . and overall have addressed, in nearly a dozen posts in this thread alone since then, the impact of Camayo, as reflected in numerous other decisions addressing and applying the prescription dictated by the Federal Court of Appeal. Warrants noting that there are several dozen FC decisions which cite the Camayo FCA decision. Most of the decisions @scylla and I reference, above, in posts over the course of the last year, deal with Camayo to some extent. In my posts #741, 742, back in May, I go into a fairly deep dive regarding how Camayo has been applied . . . focused on distinguishing the consideration of criteria as prescribed by Camayo in contrast to the negative (cessation) outcomes nonetheless; in particular I discuss several cases in which Camayo factors played a significant role but still, in most the RPD's cessation decision is upheld.

"Do you think this is getting better now?"​

In general, it does not appear that the Camayo decision is helping all that many PR-refugees save their status when they become subject to cessation proceedings based on reavailment for having obtained a passport from their home country, and traveling there. It may have some influence in the CBSA/IRCC decision-making as to whether to prosecute cessation, and may be facilitating SOME successful defenses before the IRB, but that's information we just don't have. We are almost clueless in regards to who, when, and why some who travel to the home country are spared cessation proceedings and others are not, other than the obvious, the obvious being that multiple trips to the home country, and/or lengthy stays in the home country, clearly increase the risk of cessation proceedings and loss of status.

There is NO doubt that for now, and for the foreseeable future, as already noted, PR-refugees should NOT obtain a home country passport, NOT use a home country passport if they have obtained one, NOT use it again if they already have, AND FOR SURE, do NOT travel to the home country . . . allowing, again, if they have already traveled to the home country, do NOT do that again . . . not unless and not until Canadian citizenship is obtained. Camayo has not diminished the importance of this.

Beyond that, in terms of whether things are "better," I generally steer clear of value judgments. I have made something of an exception in regards to cessation but that was in large part rooted in how the change in law (2012) was implemented and applied, used to strip PRs of their Canadian status based on conduct which, at the time they did it, had no legal impact on their status as Canadians. Even though the courts ruled to the contrary, this change had a severe retroactive effect, in effect punishing Canadians (remember, PRs are Canadians under the Canadian immigration system, not Foreign Nationals) for actions taken prior to the adoption of law. That is, before December 2012 a PR-refugee could travel to their home country and that would have NO impact on their status. After December 2012, not only would PR-refugees face potential cessation if they traveled to their home country, they could be subject to cessation, and a large number were, for having traveled to the home country YEARS before 2012. That's the sort of ex post facto law that is, on its face, blatantly unjust and draconian.

It was as if they lowered the speed limit on a roadway and then issued tickets for going faster than that before they changed the speed limit . . . except the consequences for cessation are far, far more severe, for some potentially life-threatening.

But given the passage of time in the meantime, that is less an issue. There appear to still be a few backlogged cases involving cessation based on conduct before 2012, before the change in law, but most (by a lot) involve cessation based on acts taking place since the change in law. PR-refugees should now be aware that cessation for reavailment can apply to them and it would be prudent to act accordingly. Which leads to the other objectionable aspect of this . . .

The other objectionable, and outright offensive aspect of the change in law regarding cessation, was rooted in the fact that the consequences for obtaining and using a home country passport, or traveling to the home country, were often NOT explained to PR-refugees. Some were actually given their passports back. Until around 2015 or so, call centre agents were advising PR-refugees that yes, they needed a home country passport when making an application for citizenship. The article you link talks a little about this and suggests that new refugees are still (well, as of a year or so ago) not being clearly advised about reavailment and cessation.

Hopefully the word is out now and PR-refugees are getting a clear message, which is worth repeating at least one more time:
PR-refugees should NOT obtain a home country passport, NOT use a home country passport if they have obtained one, NOT use it again if they already have, AND FOR SURE, do NOT travel to the home country, and if they already have, do NOT travel to home country again.
Thanks for the detailed answer. Do you by any chance have any kind of cases where they were allowed to keep their Refugee Status after cessation case? I mean in what ways does it make a little bit more compelling? One of my friend visited back home to get married and visit his wife's grandmother (stayed for 1 month, for once only) and then came back to Canada. After a year, he got this cessation application. (He only went back once for wedding and to visit his wife's grandmother who later died). Do you think this is a bit of a rare case as I have never seen any case online where the applicant got a cessation application on only 1 visit. All of the cases are mostly 2+ times and for a much longer stay.