Questions about appeals, and options.

[katie3234]

Hi. I’m sure this is a silly question, and that the answer is obvious, but I’m confused. If my husband’s visa was to be denied, what are our options? I have read about appeals – which sound long, expensive, emotionally draining and all together horrible. Are we able to just hold off, have myself (the sponsor) move to his home country and set up house there? And in a few years reapply? I can’t imagine only being able to have short visits with one another after waiting throughout the sponsorship process, and then having to wait throughout an appeal. It has only been 2 months since I have been with him and its already so hard! Or can you only appeal, and don’t have the option to apply again? I don’t see any reasons why we would be denied, besides his being previously deported from Greece, and his previously denied visitor visa. But I want to know what our options are. Also, I am applying through Rome and their timeline is 5-12 months. After being approved as a sponsor If decide I want to move to his Country am I able too? Without jeopardizing the application? So we can at least wait together. As they say “expect the worst, hope for the best”

Thank you!

 

[nyssa]

I am also curious about appeals. Do interviews automatically come first or hopefully before they deny your application?

 

[RobsLuv]

OK - having been through appeal, it is long, expensive and horrible . . . but the reality is that most applications are approved. For the most part, spousal applications are denied for one of two reasons - criminality (which is pretty much a done deal) or the officer assessing the case does not believe the relationship is genuine. From what I can gather, applications that are refused on MOC (marriage/relationship of convenience) are normally subjected to an interview first - because there is a lack of evidence or credibility to the information submitted with the application in support of the genuine relationship. If the interview fails, the application is refused. For criminality - if someone is inadmissible to Canada because they have a criminal conviction, there isn't much left to decide - they're inadmissible. In our case it was my son who was inadmissible - and his inadmissibility was only supposed to make me inadmissible under certain conditions. The officer who assessed the application ignored those conditions and basically found me inadmissible just because I had a son with a criminal record - even though he was not coming to Canada and hadn't lived with me for 4 years prior to the application.

Anyway - to answer nyssa's question: usually, if there are doubts about the genuine nature of the relationship, they'll interview before they issue a refusal. To answer katie's question: you do have the option to reapply, but remember that the application will be assessed by the embassy that assessed the first application, so if they refuse because they don't believe the relationship is genuine - even after an interview - chances are you're not going to convince them with a new application. I used to think that was a viable option - but I don't anymore. If you're refused over suspicion of a non-genuine relationship, appeal is your best option - regardless of the expense and the wait.

That said, how do I put this "delicately"? This "genuine relationship" thing shouldn't be something that "ordinary" couples have to worry about. There are applicants who fall into what I would describe as "high risk" profiles who will be assessed with more scrutiny. What you have to remember about "genuine relationship" is that it is an assessment of whether the couple is "genuine" and wanting to build a life together, as opposed to the applicant wanting to build a life in Canada by virtue of being in relationship with the sponsor. There are countries where marriage fraud is more prevalent - and there are sponsors who are more vulnerable to being used in this way. Officers who assess permanent resident applications are familiar with the "feel" of the country and embassy they work in. You really only need to worry about being refused over a non-genuine relationship if your spouse is coming from a country where this type of thing is prevalent AND your relationship fits the profile of high risk.

 

[nyssa]

RobsLuv, your story has been a sad one and I've always wished the best for you. Your responses are always detailed and helpful. Many thanks.

What you said made a whole lot of sense, of course. I used to be worried about my husband being denied as the sponsor because he was illegal in the US for 10 years; he's Canadian. Well, it would be a huge issue if we were applying to live in the states which we can't, so hopefully the IO gets that.

 

[katie3234]

Wow thank you for all the information! Really helpful. My husband is Albanian, so I think they will look at things more closely – from what I have read anyways. Apparently in the Rome office Greek and Italian applicants get their visas and PR sooner. Not sure how accurate that is. His being deported from Greece before I hope won't hinder our application at all, as it wasn't a criminal offence. And I feel that we have a good amount of supporting evidence showing the genuineness of our relationship – letters from our families, friends, we have both written letters, pictures, emails, some phone records, plane tickets from when I have been to Greece to visit him, and Albania, I lived with him in Greece, I lived with his family in Albania as well. Not as much “evidence” as other people. But hopefully the quality will make up for what is missing in quantity.

-How closely do they examine age? I am 20-years-old which in Canada I suppose is considered young to be married. I have read posts where people were concerned about age gaps. But I haven't read posts about younger people getting married.

-Am I able to move to Albania once I have been approved as a sponsor? Or is it best on all accounts to tough out the waiting process in Canada?

But really thank you for replying to my post. Your information was really helpful. I hope that things don't come down to an appeal; I can't see any reason they would deny us, besides his being deported before, and our previously applying for a visitor visa for him. But from what I have read being previously deported doesn't seem to matter, and they don't examine to closely previous applications to come to Canada. So hopefully neither his deportation or denied visitor visa will be an issue.

Either way, thank you so much for your response!
Sorry to bombard you with more questions!

 

[nyssa]

I can answer your first question. Age (in terms of how old you are) has no bearing. As long as you are of legal age to marry, you're good to go. I am 23 and my husband 22. We got married a year ago. We have lots of evidence, lived together for 2 years, etc. Our relationship is surely as genuine as the next, and the IO will see that. There are many couples on here in their 20's. I'm sure you have nothing to worry about there!

 

[katie3234]

Good! I’m very glad to hear that. As I read through posts where people were speaking of age (mainly age difference) it got me thinking that perhaps being 20 could affect things. Hopefully the IO is able to see that we lived together, I have met his entire family& friend, he has met some of my friends, been to Albania & Greece to see him & lived with him. You read through posts where people have 10lb worth of “evidence” it makes it nerve wracking! Wishing I would have thought to snap more pictures, kept the paper from our house, and kept old phone bills. Either way though I feel that if somebody were to examine our relationship they wouldn’t have any doubts, especially if he’s called in for an interview and has the opportunity to answer questions about being deported and our relationship.

 

[jillandmat]

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just re apply? assuming that the fault was something minor and not major?

im not sure how other people can determine if a relationship is real or not... pictures can be fake.. people lead fake lives.. i mean look at those russian spies!!!

hmmm all questionable.. I'd say

 

[canadianwoman]

The problem with not appealing and just reapplying is that there is something called 'res judicata'. It means that 'the issue has been decided already.' On appeal cases you will sometimes see the gov't lawyer asking the appeal be dismissed because of this. If the PR application is refused, and you submit another one, most likely the visa office will refuse it again - because they have already looked at your evidence and have already decided that your marriage is fake (or whatever the refusal grounds were.) You need new evidence to get the second application accepted. I would say that having continued in your marriage past a refusal, and having made more trips to see your spouse since the refusal, would be new evidence, but the appeal judges almost never consider that to be so. They will say that you have more of the same evidence, not new evidence. The only new evidence that I have seen be accepted is a baby or actually having lived together in the foreign spouse's country for a year or more. (There was only one appeal case I saw where several trips to see the spouse after the refusal was enough.)

To the OP: you can go to live in your husband's country while waiting for the application, but it is best if you don't stay too long. If you are out of Canada for a long time, the visa officer may not believe that you will go back to Canada when your husband gets his PR visa. You will then have to prove you will go back with him.
Being young is OK - being young and in love will seem more normal to a visa officer than being middle-aged and in love.

 

[heatherusa]

To the OP: you can go to live in your husband's country while waiting for the application, but it is best if you don't stay too long. If you are out of Canada for a long time, the visa officer may not believe that you will go back to Canada when your husband gets his PR visa. You will then have to prove you will go back with him.

I may be way out in left field on this, but isn't the risk that a person wont return to Canada if the spouse receives a visa really mostly applicable in cases where the sponsor is not a born citizen of Canada, has great ties to the country they are living in with their spouse, and possibly in the case where the marriage is recent?

The reason that I ask is that my husband and I have been together for 13 years and have lived together in the US for 12 of those years. In my view, there is no reason for him to want to go to Canada and me to stay. The fact that we have been together so long in "his" country only makes for greater proof that our marriage (of 12 years) is genuine. Of course, we have the luxury of applying from the United States so maybe this skews my view. What is your thought on this?

 

[Silver_Spirit]

Katie, just to point out about the age thing, i was 19 at the time of applying and my hubby 20 (now 20 & 21) but we got approved fine with no interview

 

[canadianwoman]

I may be way out in left field on this, but isn't the risk that a person wont return to Canada if the spouse receives a visa really mostly applicable in cases where the sponsor is not a born citizen of Canada, has great ties to the country they are living in with their spouse, and possibly in the case where the marriage is recent?

The reason that I ask is that my husband and I have been together for 13 years and have lived together in the US for 12 of those years. In my view, there is no reason for him to want to go to Canada and me to stay. The fact that we have been together so long in "his" country only makes for greater proof that our marriage (of 12 years) is genuine. Of course, we have the luxury of applying from the United States so maybe this skews my view. What is your thought on this?

I agree that the visa officer is most likely to think the sponsor won't go back to Canada when the sponsor is an immigrant and has gone back to his own country to wait with the spouse. In cases like yours, where the two of you have lived together for a long time in the spouse's country and now want to move to Canada, I wouldn't think there would be a problem. You would still have to prove you are planning to move back to Canada though.
I was just thinking of several recent forum cases that were refused because the visa officer didn't believe the sponsor would go back to Canada. They were all recent marriages. If it seems clear that the Canadian spouse moved to the other's country and lived there for several years, and then the two of them decided to move to Canada, I would think these cases would be less likely to be refused - the cohabitation proves the marriage is genuine.

 

[katie3234]

Thank you to everyone who answered me. I am going through the Rome office (just waiting on 1 more paper then shipping everything off!!!) since I began filling out papers in mid June to now the timeline for Rome changed from 5-9 months to 6-13 months! So stressful! But it’s a large relief knowing different options in the unlikely chance that the application is denied, or drags on for a long period of time. As I read through the forum and learn of other people stories, and struggles it all gets rather frightening. Some people have been fighting for their spouses to come to Canada for years and years! Even thinking that it could be 13 months before my husband gets to Canada is horrifying and emotionally draining – but no matter how many months we have to wait I know that once he is finally here every ounce of stress will melt away.

Are there any “special” things a person can do to get their spouse to Canada sooner? Do some applications take longer than others only because paper work was miss or left out? Extra items need to be requested? Or is it based on the country the spouse is from? I cannot wait to ship off our application, and start counting the days until he joins me and we are able to begin our lives together. Sorry for ranting, but I needed to ... it’s been a long week, lots of stress, lots of work.

 

[canadianwoman]

Are there any “special” things a person can do to get their spouse to Canada sooner? Do some applications take longer than others only because paper work was miss or left out? Extra items need to be requested? Or is it based on the country the spouse is from?

An application will be delayed if any paperwork is missing or signatures have been forgotten. It will also be delayed if the visa officer asks for more info - though that is better than the visa officer just deciding to refuse the application and not giving the applicants a chance to provide more evidence.

Cases where everything about the relationship is 'normal' will usually be processed faster, but if you have 'red flags' or compatibility issues, there is not much you can do to change them. Look at your relationship as objectively as possible - are there red flags? Are there compatibility issues? It is not enough to think that since you and your spouse/partner don't care about ___, it doesn't matter. Address potential problem areas in your application and tell the visa officer they don't matter to you, and provide any proof you have. For example, I saw one case where a Moroccan man was marrying an older woman - proof that his mother was considerably older than his father would have been relevant (according to the appeal judge).
Compatibility issues that the visa officer will probably be concerned about are: age differences, especially if the woman is older than the man; different language, religion, ethnic background, race, educational level, marital background, even social background. If one partner has children (or both have children) the visa officer may have some concerns. You can't change there facts, but you can provide proof that they don't matter to you. I am much better-educated than my husband, and I was afraid it would be an issue, so I included 10 affidavits and letters from his family members stating it was normal in their family for the wife to be better educated, and the issue was never raised by the visa officer or at appeal. To combat other compatibility problems, all you can really do is up the amount of evidence you provide that your relationship is real.

Some countries just take longer than others, but if you submit a complete well-organized application with lots of evidence that your relationship is real, you at least have a chance of yours being processed faster than average.

 

[nyssa]

I would also like to add that while those do cause red flags, it is important to determine how much so. For example, I am one year older than my husband but that will not raise red flags, 20 years will. I am religious (not christian) and he is agnostic/athiest but we are not as concerned as someone whose religions are known for never (or well, rarely I should say) marrying. Of course no two people will have perfectly matching lives, it is important to address the differences and explain how that works for you. Canadianwoman put it absolutely perfectly.