PRTD - Necessary or not?

[giopol]

Hi everybody,

I was wondering if you could enlighten me about the PRTD. When my wife and I activated our permanent resident status in September 2015, we only stayed a few days in Canada since we had to get back to Germany where we currently work (we're Italian citizens, by the way). For this reason, the immigration officer who processed our papers told us that we would've needed to apply for a PR card once we actually settled down in Canada. We then asked her whether we needed a PRTD to re-enter Canada in the future, but she said that it wasn't necessary.

However, following an e-mail from Immigration Canada reminding me that all permanent residents need a valid card or PRTD to re-enter Canada, I asked for feedback at the Canadian Embassy in Vienna (I first contacted the one in Rome, of course, but never got a reply), and they confirm that a PRTD is needed. Yet, while investigating further, I came across this forum, where there seems to be people who are new residents and still managed to re-enter Canada without PRTD... I am so confused!

Therefore, my question is: do we need this PRTD? Immigration officer says no, Canadian Embassy says yes... Who is right? Also, based on info provided in this forum, it seems that the embassy in Vienna processes PRTD applications in just a day: can anyone confirm this?

Finally, do you know for how long a PRTD is valid? My passport will expire in a year and I was wondering whether it would be convenient to just renew it now.

Thank you!

Best regards

 

[torhout13]

No, they don't process PRTDs in Vienna in one day. They don't accept applications in person. You have to mail it.
I applied for PRTD at the Canadian embassy in Vienna last year (2016) and it was processed in 4 days plus mailing time another week. So it took 2 weeks in total for the whole process + mailing time.
PRTD with one entry is valid for 6 months. Hope this helps.

 

[scylla]

ETA process wasn't in place yet when you spoke to the immigration officer.

Now that the ETA process is in place, yes, you absolutely need either valid PR cards or valid PRTDs to return to Canada. The exception to this is if you fly to the US instead and enter Canada via a US/Canada land border in a private vehicle using your COPR. However if you plan to fly directly to Canada, you need the PRTD.

 

[giopol]

Thanks to both you for your help!

 

[dpenabill]

I was wondering if you could enlighten me about the PRTD. When my wife and I activated our permanent resident status in September 2015, we only stayed a few days in Canada since we had to get back to Germany where we currently work (we're Italian citizens, by the way). For this reason, the immigration officer who processed our papers told us that we would've needed to apply for a PR card once we actually settled down in Canada. We then asked her whether we needed a PRTD to re-enter Canada in the future, but she said that it wasn't necessary.

However, following an e-mail from Immigration Canada reminding me that all permanent residents need a valid card or PRTD to re-enter Canada, I asked for feedback at the Canadian Embassy in Vienna (I first contacted the one in Rome, of course, but never got a reply), and they confirm that a PRTD is needed. Yet, while investigating further, I came across this forum, where there seems to be people who are new residents and still managed to re-enter Canada without PRTD... I am so confused!

Therefore, my question is: do we need this PRTD? Immigration officer says no, Canadian Embassy says yes... Who is right? Also, based on info provided in this forum, it seems that the embassy in Vienna processes PRTD applications in just a day: can anyone confirm this?

Finally, do you know for how long a PRTD is valid? My passport will expire in a year and I was wondering whether it would be convenient to just renew it now.

I largely concur in scylla's post, and in particular that in order to return to Canada it is at least very likely you will need either a PR Travel Document, or travel via the U.S.

That noted, there is a recently reported experience illustrating some possible leeway for a new PR. Thus, I have made more in-depth observations about your situation in the topic where that experience is reported, in the context of discussing this sort of situation generally in far greater depth.

In the interest of clarity, however, again it is quite clear (if not absolutely certain) that to board a flight to Canada you will need a PR TD . . . that the advice offered by an immigration officer a year and a half ago, or so, was likely premised on a PR's capacity to board a flight to Canada by showing a visa-exempt passport which conclusively ended November 10, 2016. That is, no need to wade through my long explanation to understand what you need to know; what you need to know is that you need to obtain a PR TD to make a flight to Canada.





My other, long post, in part (for full post follow link):

Below I go into much depth about the prospect a recently landed PR may be able to board a flight to Canada without presenting either a valid PR card or PR Travel Document. The experience reported by Meganes illustrates that this is at least possible.

. . . Nonetheless . . . in the situation reported by giopol, who queried in another topic, it is almost certain (but not absolutely) that a PR TD will be needed to board a flight to Canada (recognizing that with a European passport that giopol could alternatively transit via the U.S.)

. . . the primary caution remains: to return to Canada from abroad, a PR:
-- needs a valid PR card or a PR TD to board a flight to Canada, or
-- capacity to travel via the U.S. and cross the land border into Canada using private transportation
And the risk this will apply to a new PR remains substantial, perhaps high.

 

[Rob_TO]

That noted, there is a recently reported experience illustrating some possible leeway for a new PR.

I assume you are referring to people that have valid visitor visas before becoming PRs, and since CBSA doesn't seem to cancel them all the time after landing as a PR they can still be used to board airplanes to Canada even after becoming PR.

Since OP is an Italian citizen and visa-exempt to Canada, I don't think this is a possibility. Even if they did have a visa obtained before becoming PR that would allow boarding, using it would be very risky since CBSA could cancel it at anytime and if airline sees it's cancelled, you would be denied boarding at the airport. But indeed some people are using this method and reporting success.

 

[dpenabill]

I assume you are referring to people that have valid visitor visas before becoming PRs, and since CBSA doesn't seem to cancel them all the time after landing as a PR they can still be used to board airplanes to Canada even after becoming PR.

No.

In general, when trying to figure how or why something works the way it does, the better and more reliable approach is to figure out how the process actually works, as best can be done with the information available. While many in this and other forums tend to assume error or oversight, a failure of one sort or another, the more accurate explanation is usually rooted in understanding how things actually work.

It may be tautological ("trite" is the term used by Canadian jurists) to say that things usually work according to how they actually work, and that is ordinarily the way things are designed to work. But, for whatever reasons, ranging from laziness to a propensity to focus on blame when things are awry, the tendency in public forums to, in effect, see incompetence or nefarious motive, rarely illuminates much and more often is distraction.

For more about how the IAPI clearance to board a flight to Canada actually works, see the sources I have cited and linked multiple times, including:

For the applicable and recently completely updated Operational Manual, see ENF 15 "Obligatons of transporters," which can be accessed as a pdf reached by link at IRCC website for updates to Operational Bulletins and Operational Manual at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/rss.asp )


For the more recent version of the CBSA Guide for Transporters, see http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/trans/guide-eng.html

For more specific information about the IAPI system, see

-- "Interactive Advance Passenger Information (IAPI)" at http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/iapi-ipvi-eng.html

-- "Advance Passenger Information / Passenger Name Record Program" at http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/api_ipv-eng.html

-- Memorandum D1-16-3 titled " Guidelines for the Access to, Use, and Disclosure of Advance Passenger Information (API) and Passenger Name Record (PNR) Data" at http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d1/d1-16-3-eng.html

-- General information about Electronic Travel Authorization (eTA) can be accessed following links at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/eta.asp

 

[Rob_TO]

No.

You stated there was a "recently reported experience" around newly landed PRs traveling without PR card or PT TD. If this experience wasn't the case of traveling on a visa obtained prior to becoming PR, which experience are you referring to in particular?

 

[dpenabill]

You stated there was a "recently reported experience" around newly landed PRs traveling without PR card or PT TD. If this experience wasn't the case of traveling on a visa obtained prior to becoming PR, which experience are you referring to in particular?

Since I have twice above linked the very long post in which I discuss this in depth, with context and linked sources, and a good deal of careful analysis with due consideration given developing information, this does not appear to be a sincere query. At the least, I do not see how it is related to the query, posed by giopol, being discussed here.

What is pertinent here, as I posted above, explicitly agreeing with the post by scylla, is that the OP, giopol, most likely will need to either obtain a PR Travel Document, or travel via the U.S., to return to Canada. And, as I further noted, this is most likely notwithstanding the likelihood of some possible leeway for a new PR, regarding which again I referenced and linked where that is discussed in depth.



Otherwise, among discussions where there is a genuine effort to explore the parameters of airline discretion to allow PRs to board a flight to Canada, in the absence of a valid PR card or PR TD, or otherwise without a "board" clearance from the CBSA interactive system, see:

Potential discretion to allow boarding notwithstanding a no board response from the IAPI system:

. . .

What is known is that the airlines are now using the IAPI system, it is mandatory, and the system will give the airlines a simple "board" or "no board" response based on whether, in the system, the traveler's Travel Document is verified as authorizing travel to Canada.

[follow message link for full post]

Note, there is some possibility that an airlines will allow boarding despite the absence of clearance from CBSA, and despite not having the precise documents prescribed, which for PRs is either a valid PR card or a PR TD. . . .

. . . if the airlines do allow some exceptions . . . my guess is that the recently landed PR with a CoPR, trying to board a return flight to Canada, probably has about as good a chance as any PR would.

[follow message link for full post]

Possibility of Airline Exercising Some Flexibility?

. . .

The possibility of some flexibility is also indicated in the Operational Manual ENF 15 "Obligations of Transporters"

[follow message link for full post]

And again, third reference with link posted here . . .

Below I go into much depth about the prospect a recently landed PR may be able to board a flight to Canada without presenting either a valid PR card or PR Travel Document. The experience reported by Meganes illustrates that this is at least possible.

This experience appears to confirm what I suggested multiple times last month.

. . .

For the applicable and recently completely updated Operational Manual, see ENF 15 "Obligatons of transporters," which can be accessed as a pdf reached by link at IRCC website for updates to Operational Bulletins and Operational Manual at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/rss.asp )


For the more recent version of the CBSA Guide for Transporters, see http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/trans/guide-eng.html

For more specific information about the IAPI system, see

-- "Interactive Advance Passenger Information (IAPI)" at http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/iapi-ipvi-eng.html

-- "Advance Passenger Information / Passenger Name Record Program" at http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/api_ipv-eng.html

-- Memorandum D1-16-3 titled " Guidelines for the Access to, Use, and Disclosure of Advance Passenger Information (API) and Passenger Name Record (PNR) Data" at http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d1/d1-16-3-eng.html

-- General information about Electronic Travel Authorization (eTA) can be accessed following links at http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/eta.asp


[again, follow message link for full post]

 

[Rob_TO]

Since I have twice above linked the very long post in which I discuss this in depth, with context and linked sources, and a good deal of careful analysis with due consideration given developing information, this does not appear to be a sincere query. At the least, I do not see how it is related to the query, posed by giopol, being discussed here.

I'm not asking for links to operation manuals and rules. You specifically referenced a "recently reported experience" of someone traveling without PR card or PR TD, and I was curious which "reported experience" this was.
Seems from sorting through previous threads it was the experience by user "Meganes" you were referring to, which did indeed involve using a visa obtained prior to becoming a PR.

So my initial guess was right, i'm not sure why you answered no. You could have simply used a single word to respond - Yes... instead of spending all that time referencing a dozen or so other links.