PR renewal was successful, but PRTD was refused, but still re-entry visa was issued

[Wilton]

In March 2019, I applied for a PR Cards renewal in Toronto. In the PR Renewal application I had calculated and stated that I had not met the residency obligations of 730 days (missed it by 45 days), due to extensive travel outside of Canada (not proper settling or working anywhere else though ) and that I was planning to fully return to Canada, still have strong ties etc etc...

In December 2019 my old PR Card expired

End of January 2020 (so much for the avg 28days processing that IRCC currently published on their website), after several attempts to find out what the status of the application was, I received an email and attached letter from IRCC in Hamilton (not sure why the local office in Hamilton) that my card was ready to be picked up in person. They also stated that my presence was required as they still wanted to determine if they issued a 5year or a 1year card (I had never heard about a 1yr card before).

Beginning of February, as my old PR Card had expired 6 weeks before and I was in London (UK), I applied for a PRTD to be able to re-enter Canada and pick up my PR Card ready for me in Hamilton.
The PRTD was refused, given I had not fulfilled the residency obligation of 730 days and they stated my H&C grounds were not satisfying either.

However, given I had been in Canada less than 365 days ago, IRCC London still issued be a re-entry visa into Canada.

so now I don't really understand where this leaves me:
- I only applied for the PRTD to be able to re-enter, which I now can with with visa they issued...
- but does the refused PRTD supersede the approved PR renewal?
if so, do I need to appeal the PRTD, but what happens with the original PR renewal application?
if not, can I just use the re-entry visa to go to IRCC in Hamilton and pick up my PR Card, and what to do about the refused PRTD application?

- and why/how would IRCC in Hamilton approve my PR, and IRCC London would refuse the PRTD based on the exact same information and knowing that Hamilton had approved the PR already?

thank you for any comments and advice....

 

[canuck78]

In March 2019, I applied for a PR Cards renewal in Toronto. In the PR Renewal application I had calculated and stated that I had not met the residency obligations of 730 days (missed it by 45 days), due to extensive travel outside of Canada (not proper settling or working anywhere else though ) and that I was planning to fully return to Canada, still have strong ties etc etc...

In December 2019 my old PR Card expired

End of January 2020 (so much for the avg 28days processing that IRCC currently published on their website), after several attempts to find out what the status of the application was, I received an email and attached letter from IRCC in Hamilton (not sure why the local office in Hamilton) that my card was ready to be picked up in person. They also stated that my presence was required as they still wanted to determine if they issued a 5year or a 1year card (I had never heard about a 1yr card before).

Beginning of February, as my old PR Card had expired 6 weeks before and I was in London (UK), I applied for a PRTD to be able to re-enter Canada and pick up my PR Card ready for me in Hamilton.
The PRTD was refused, given I had not fulfilled the residency obligation of 730 days and they stated my H&C grounds were not satisfying either.

However, given I had been in Canada less than 365 days ago, IRCC London still issued be a re-entry visa into Canada.

so now I don't really understand where this leaves me:
- I only applied for the PRTD to be able to re-enter, which I now can with with visa they issued...
- but does the refused PRTD supersede the approved PR renewal?
if so, do I need to appeal the PRTD, but what happens with the original PR renewal application?
if not, can I just use the re-entry visa to go to IRCC in Hamilton and pick up my PR Card, and what to do about the refused PRTD application?

- and why/how would IRCC in Hamilton approve my PR, and IRCC London would refuse the PRTD based on the exact same information and knowing that Hamilton had approved the PR already?

thank you for any comments and advice....

As a PR who has been in Canada the last 365 days you are allowed to enter Canada. Given that you hadn’t met your RO you are likely to be given a 1 year PR card so that you can pick up your PR card but since you haven’t met your RO you can expect that the process to revoke your PR will start which you can appeal.

 

[Wilton]

As a PR who has been in Canada the last 365 days you are allowed to enter Canada. Given that you hadn’t met your RO you are likely to be given a 1 year PR card so that you can pick up your PR card but since you haven’t met your RO you can expect that the process to revoke your PR will start which you can appeal.

Hi,

and thank you very much for your reply.

I am not quite sure I understand though, what is the point of a 1 yr PR card. By the end of the one year, I won't mathematically be able to come to the 730 days in the last 5 years (because the bulk of my days in Canada in the previous 5 years was at the beginning of the period and so in a moving 5 year period I won't have 730 days at the end of one year even if I were to stay in Canada the whole year).

Also, given that the PRTD was refused, will I have to appeal that in any case or how does that relate to the previous PR Card renewal application?
the PR Card renewal (submitted in March 2019 and decided in January 2020) and the PRTD application (February 2020) seem to be treated completely independently by IRCC (different application numbers, and no apparent interaction btw IRCC Hamilton and IRCC London).

Regarding the "process to revoke the PR", is that then automatically started by IRCC and if so, do they tell you about that?
Given that I do not fulfil the RO requirements, and H&C might be unlikely to be successful given the non-compliance with the RO is due to lifestyle choices (me travelling and being too stupid to think ahead properly in terms of the days), would it then be advisable to renounce the PR so that it's not on record that it was taken away... to be able to maybe in the future re-apply for PR completely new (if that is possible)

thank you

 

[canuck78]

Hi,

and thank you very much for your reply.

I am not quite sure I understand though, what is the point of a 1 yr PR card. By the end of the one year, I won't mathematically be able to come to the 730 days in the last 5 years (because the bulk of my days in Canada in the previous 5 years was at the beginning of the period and so in a moving 5 year period I won't have 730 days at the end of one year even if I were to stay in Canada the whole year).

Also, given that the PRTD was refused, will I have to appeal that in any case or how does that relate to the previous PR Card renewal application?
the PR Card renewal (submitted in March 2019 and decided in January 2020) and the PRTD application (February 2020) seem to be treated completely independently by IRCC (different application numbers, and no apparent interaction btw IRCC Hamilton and IRCC London).

Regarding the "process to revoke the PR", is that then automatically started by IRCC and if so, do they tell you about that?
Given that I do not fulfil the RO requirements, and H&C might be unlikely to be successful given the non-compliance with the RO is due to lifestyle choices (me travelling and being too stupid to think ahead properly in terms of the days), would it then be advisable to renounce the PR so that it's not on record that it was taken away... to be able to maybe in the future re-apply for PR completely new (if that is possible)

thank you

1 year PR cards are issued to allow people to appeal their revocation or to reenter Canada if no decision has been made regarding their PR card renewal if they had been in Canada in the past 365 days. Would make sure you qualify before renouncing your PR. Wouldn’t normally recommend renouncing your PR but it is up to you. If you have no intention of returning to Canada anytime soon there isn’t much point in fighting. If you want to return and stay in Canada you should return and attempt to fight to keep your PR.

 

[Wilton]

1 year PR cards are issued to allow people to appeal their revocation or to reenter Canada if no decision has been made regarding their PR card renewal if they had been in Canada in the past 365 days. Would make sure you qualify before renouncing your PR. Wouldn’t normally recommend renouncing your PR but it is up to you. If you have no intention of returning to Canada anytime soon there isn’t much point in fighting. If you want to return and stay in Canada you should return and attempt to fight to keep your PR.

So, if/when IRCC issues a 1yr card, do they also tell you that they started the process to revoke PR status?
Why wouldn't they just revoke the status as the decision of the PR Card renewal in the first place?

If one appeals the process to revoke, and wins, does one then get a proper 5 year card again?

To appeal and 'fight', I assume I would have to be in Canada at that time?
so that's kind of the catch-22, to have a chance in the appeal, I would have to move back, which I want, but if I then lose the appeal, the move back was for nothing and I would have to leave again....

Is there a process to, after having officially lost the PR status (if by renouncing it or by it being revoked) that one can, possibly years later, re-apply for new PR status?
Does the previous PR status help or hinder (or make it impossible) to become a PR again in the future?

 

[canuck78]

So, if/when IRCC issues a 1yr card, do they also tell you that they started the process to revoke PR status?
Why wouldn't they just revoke the status as the decision of the PR Card renewal in the first place?

If one appeals the process to revoke, and wins, does one then get a proper 5 year card again?

To appeal and 'fight', I assume I would have to be in Canada at that time?
so that's kind of the catch-22, to have a chance in the appeal, I would have to move back, which I want, but if I then lose the appeal, the move back was for nothing and I would have to leave again....

Is there a process to, after having officially lost the PR status (if by renouncing it or by it being revoked) that one can, possibly years later, re-apply for new PR status?
Does the previous PR status help or hinder (or make it impossible) to become a PR again in the future?

You said you got a request to pick up your PR card. At that time you will likely be asked about not meeting your RO. People may have various reasons for not meeting their RO and in most democracies there are options to appeal almost anything. Yes you will get a 5 year PR card if you get your appeal granted. Yes it would be advisable to be in Canada during an appeal to show that you are committed to establishing yourself in Canada but it is a risk.

You can easily renounce your PR and it won’t have negative implications if you reapply later on in life.

 

[Wilton]

You said you got a request to pick up your PR card. At that time you will likely be asked about not meeting your RO. People may have various reasons for not meeting their RO and in most democracies there are options to appeal almost anything. Yes you will get a 5 year PR card if you get your appeal granted. Yes it would be advisable to be in Canada during an appeal to show that you are committed to establishing yourself in Canada but it is a risk.

You can easily renounce your PR and it won’t have negative implications if you reapply later on in life.

Thank you very much for all your replies. 2 more question if I may:

1) I have the invite to IRCC Hamilton where they have my card 'ready' (given the PRTD was in process, I had to ask to postpone the date but they replied immediately saying they will give me a new appointment).
During this interview, where, if I understand you correct, IRCC decides weather to issue a 1yr or a 5yr card, are there points one should highlight that might help to sway the decision to the 5yr rather than the 1yr card (I had already explained the reason for missing the RO in my application and been open about the whole situation)??

2) What is there to be done about the 'refused' PRTD (again, I applied for the PRTD to get a re-entry travel document to go to the PR renewal interview, then the PRTD was 'refused' but a re-entry visa was issued because I had been in Canada within the last 365 days).
Do I just go to the PR interview and the PRTD application just remains 'refused' without consequences (as the re-entry visa that was issued served the purpose that the PRTD was supposed to serve)??

The whole PR and PRTD being two separate applications and their outcome being seemingly independent and contrary just doesn't make any sense to me

again, thank you very much for your point of view

 

[canuck78]

1. During the meeting you will go through your application. Given that you have been out of a Canada for a while you are likely not meeting your RO at the moment as well. Your RO has now become a rolling total. You can try to explain why you were out of the country but seems like you already explained.

2. PRTD was initially not awarded because you didn’t meet your RO. You then got approved for aPRTD to come to and pick up yourPR card. Two separate reasons and departments. Someone may not have met their RO or entered Canada in the past 365 days. They would have been denied both PRTDs. You can appeal the revocation of your PR status. It doesn’t sound like you have a good H&C reason like family illness or spouse/children who are living in Canada who may be adversely affected if you lose your PR. Those are the most common reasons to appeal.
Most people who have not met their RO don’t apply to renew their PR card and try to enter via the US land border where you can enter without a valid PR card but still risk being reported.

 

[Wilton]

1. During the meeting you will go through your application. Given that you have been out of a Canada for a while you are likely not meeting your RO at the moment as well. Your RO has now become a rolling total. You can try to explain why you were out of the country but seems like you already explained.

2. PRTD was initially not awarded because you didn’t meet your RO. You then got approved for aPRTD to come to and pick up yourPR card. Two separate reasons and departments. Someone may not have met their RO or entered Canada in the past 365 days. They would have been denied both PRTDs. You can appeal the revocation of your PR status. It doesn’t sound like you have a good H&C reason like family illness or spouse/children who are living in Canada who may be adversely affected if you lose your PR. Those are the most common reasons to appeal.
Most people who have not met their RO don’t apply to renew their PR card and try to enter via the US land border where you can enter without a valid PR card but still risk being reported.

Thank you again for the quick reply.

From your responses, it all seems to lead to the same likely result of me loosing the PR status eventually... which is a shame as I've been a PR for almost 11 years and I had really hoped to keep it (and I would long be a Canadian Citizen if my country of birth allowed dual citizenship)....
I knew I didn't fulfil the 730 days when I applied for the new PR Card (and it is totally due to my own choices, some family reasons etc), but I had assumed that IRCC officers have and use more discretion to issue new cards in cases where the RO are not completely fulfilled but where there should be little reason to think that the applicant is trying to abuse the process or that the applicant isn't serious about their interest in Canada and all that...

I guess I should start looking into applying for PR from scratch again at some point

 

[canuck78]

Thank you again for the quick reply.

From your responses, it all seems to lead to the same likely result of me loosing the PR status eventually... which is a shame as I've been a PR for almost 11 years and I had really hoped to keep it (and I would long be a Canadian Citizen if my country of birth allowed dual citizenship)....
I knew I didn't fulfil the 730 days when I applied for the new PR Card (and it is totally due to my own choices, some family reasons etc), but I had assumed that IRCC officers have and use more discretion to issue new cards in cases where the RO are not completely fulfilled but where there should be little reason to think that the applicant is trying to abuse the process or that the applicant isn't serious about their interest in Canada and all that...

I guess I should start looking into applying for PR from scratch again at some point

You can certainly try if you have valid family reasons. 2 out of 5 years is a very lenient RO. Not sure how much more lenient you want people to be. If you have a good reason why you couldn’t remain in Canada you can try and retain your PR but you have said it was poor planning.

 

[Wilton]

Hi again to everybody,

I don't mean to drag this threat on for too long, but still wanted to check if there is any feedback / any experiences from previous IRCC interviews regarding how to persuade and convince the IRCC officers in an interview, when RO are not met and H&C reasons are rather weak too?

Do other outside factors matter in the decision, like:
- the original Citizenship
- the length of having been a PR so far (ie. not the first renewal)
- the fact that there has never been any legal issues, unlawful conduct or anything else negative with regards to Canadian Authorities

Are there any no-go arguments?
Anything one should NOT say as it would likely backfire?


What are opinions/feedback on the effectiveness (or stupidity) of making the below different types of arguments:

Economic argument:
Is there any point in making arguments along the lines of: Canada has little to lose, there is no downside for Canada to retain the PR status of the applicant, that the applicant has, as PR in the last decade only ever economically contributed in form of taxes and economic activity and never used social services in any meaningful way...

Future Plans:
Are there specific ways one should frame the statements about plans for the future in Canada, of planning/wanting to fully re-establish again and that one is only waiting right now on having the certainty of a new 5year timeframe rather than the insecurity of the possibility of the PR status being revoked?

Hint at possibility for re-applying for PR:
Is it worth to mention the fact that, after the PR would be revoked by IRCC, one could simply re-apply from scratch again and would likely satisfy the requirements again and that this would clearly overall be more bureaucratic and expensive for IRCC?

Point out upfront honesty in the application:
Does it help to point out that one was honest about RO, didn't try to hide anything, didn't try the land border loop whole, was upfront about everything at the initial PR renewal application?

 

[scylla]

Hi again to everybody,

I don't mean to drag this threat on for too long, but still wanted to check if there is any feedback / any experiences from previous IRCC interviews regarding how to persuade and convince the IRCC officers in an interview, when RO are not met and H&C reasons are rather weak too?

Do other outside factors matter in the decision, like:
- the original Citizenship
- the length of having been a PR so far (ie. not the first renewal)
- the fact that there has never been any legal issues, unlawful conduct or anything else negative with regards to Canadian Authorities

Are there any no-go arguments?
Anything one should NOT say as it would likely backfire?


What are opinions/feedback on the effectiveness (or stupidity) of making the below different types of arguments:

Economic argument:
Is there any point in making arguments along the lines of: Canada has little to lose, there is no downside for Canada to retain the PR status of the applicant, that the applicant has, as PR in the last decade only ever economically contributed in form of taxes and economic activity and never used social services in any meaningful way...

Future Plans:
Are there specific ways one should frame the statements about plans for the future in Canada, of planning/wanting to fully re-establish again and that one is only waiting right now on having the certainty of a new 5year timeframe rather than the insecurity of the possibility of the PR status being revoked?

Hint at possibility for re-applying for PR:
Is it worth to mention the fact that, after the PR would be revoked by IRCC, one could simply re-apply from scratch again and would likely satisfy the requirements again and that this would clearly overall be more bureaucratic and expensive for IRCC?

Point out upfront honesty in the application:
Does it help to point out that one was honest about RO, didn't try to hide anything, didn't try the land border loop whole, was upfront about everything at the initial PR renewal application?

You're posting in the wrong section of the forum. You'll need to move over to the Permanent Residency Obligation section of the forum.

 

[Wilton]

done. Thanks