PR Renewal - Time Spent Outside when working for a canadian company

[shankb]

Hello,

I'm apply for a PR renewal process and currently work for Amazon Canada.
Here's how my days look like when i filled the PR renewal application:

• Total time spent outside Canada: 1111
• Total time spent outside Canada due to reasons A, B or C: 155
• Total time spent outside Canada excluding reasons A, B or C: 956

Question:
1. Reason A says "You have been employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province." . I've travelled outside due to work as i had to travel to Amazon HQ in Seattle and other Amazon locations often. Given that I worked for Amazon Canada which is a Canadian registered business of Amazon, can i claim my days outside Canada as i was travelling for work?
2. Reason C says "You have been accompanying a PR who is your spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, your parent and who is employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province." I've travelled outside Canada with my wife who works for a canadian business (to accompany her for work, or other reasons). Can this be claimed as well?

Based on what is given in the form it seems yes, but i was surprised to see this because the official IRCC site says i can only claim days outside if I work for below companies or accompany a PR/Citizen spouse who works for below companies:

• Canadian Armed Forces
• federal public administration
• public service of a province or territory.

Can someone help clarify what the actual case is? I was pleasantly surprised to read i'm eligible to renew but wanted to check with the experts here to see what Reason A, C actually means.
Thanks again for all your help and guidance!!

 

[Naturgrl]

If you were transferred through inter-company transfer to the Seattle and other offices and can show a work permits (US and others), it is possible. If you can show your paystubs to the Seattle office and US work permit then provide that. It is not for business travel.

 

[shankb]

@Naturgrl thanks for getting back!
I was transferred to Amazon Canada via inter-company transfer. When you say "it is not for business travel" what do you mean?
My travel to US and UK Amazon were for business meetings.

 

[dpenabill]

I'm apply for a PR renewal process and currently work for Amazon Canada.
Here's how my days look like when i filled the PR renewal application:

• Total time spent outside Canada: 1111
• Total time spent outside Canada due to reasons A, B or C: 155
• Total time spent outside Canada excluding reasons A, B or C: 956

Question:
1. Reason A says "You have been employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province." . I've travelled outside due to work as i had to travel to Amazon HQ in Seattle and other Amazon locations often. Given that I worked for Amazon Canada which is a Canadian registered business of Amazon, can i claim my days outside Canada as i was travelling for work?
2. Reason C says "You have been accompanying a PR who is your spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, your parent and who is employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province." I've travelled outside Canada with my wife who works for a canadian business (to accompany her for work, or other reasons). Can this be claimed as well?

Based on what is given in the form it seems yes, but i was surprised to see this because the official IRCC site says i can only claim days outside if I work for below companies or accompany a PR/Citizen spouse who works for below companies:

• Canadian Armed Forces
• federal public administration
• public service of a province or territory.

Can someone help clarify what the actual case is? I was pleasantly surprised to read i'm eligible to renew but wanted to check with the experts here to see what Reason A, C actually means.

Read and follow the instructions in the guide for PR card applications, which is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...acement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html

In regards to Residency Obligation compliance in particular, see Appendix A: Residency Obligation.

You linked the IRCC response to a FAQ in regards to calculating physical presence for citizenship. The rules are different for what counts toward RO compliance.

(By the way, NONE of the information posted on these IRCC webpages is "official." It is of course an authoritative source, almost the best source for this information, generally reliable, but it is NOT official.)​

In any event, what is referenced in the application as "A" reasons and "C" reasons, for an absence from Canada, is more fully addressed in the guide, in Appendix A . . . "A" reasons discussed under the heading "Situation A. Employment outside Canada," and "C" reasons under the heading "Situation C. Accompanying a permanent resident outside Canada."

For those periods of time which you honestly believe you are entitled to the credit under Situation A or Situation C, select the appropriate reason in the Question 5.5 drop down and include supporting documents as described in the Appendix for the respective situation.

Note: supporting documents to qualify for RO credit under Situation C requires the same proof as required for Situation A, but for the spouse who is working outside Canada, PLUS proof of relationship and accompanying.

Some Observations About Relying on Work-Abroad Credit:

For both Situation A and Situation C, the key to the exception allowing a PR credit toward the RO for days outside Canada is whether the PR, or for Situation C the PR's spouse (who the PR is "accompanying"), is temporarily assigned to work outside Canada by their full time Canadian business employer. In many situations qualifying for this credit can be tricky. There is an extensive, in-depth discussion about this credit in the topic "Working Abroad RO credit, including "business trips;" an update" (and yeah, much if not most of it consists of posts by me), which is here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-i...it-including-business-trips-an-update.607559/

Even assuming you qualify for the working-abroad credit, the first question is whether you need to proceed to include the supporting documents necessary to show ("prove") you qualify for the respective exception. You do if you make the application when your total number of days outside Canada is 1111 (more than 1095); in this case then in addition to selecting reason "A" or "C" respectively, you need to provide (include with the application) the supporting documents that show you are entitled to credit toward the RO based on that reason. I address this further below in observations about what qualifies for the credit.

But, again, it is worth questioning yourself whether you really need to rely on this credit. You say that you currently have been outside Canada just 1111 days. If you can wait until you have been in Canada long enough to get credit for another just another 16 days to make the PR card application, to when your total days outside Canada is fewer than 1095, that would mean there is NO need to include proof regarding "A" or "C" situations. Of course there are many variables that can impact that calculation (for example, some PRs will be losing credit for days from five years ago, so it can take longer to actually get to fewer than a total of 1095 days abroad).

If you are currently living IN Canada, well settled here and living here for the last two years or close to that, and you make an online application showing RO compliance based on days physically present in Canada (that is, an application that shows totals days outside Canada fewer than 1095), there is a good chance the application is approved very quickly by automated decision-making. I am not certain what the criteria for automated decision-making is, but I very much expect that relying on an exception for RO credit, like the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit, will NOT benefit from automated approval and take significantly longer . . . which is to say, if you can get to fewer than 1095 days outside Canada in less than two or perhaps even three months, there are much better odds of getting a new PR card sooner if you wait to apply.


Some Observations Regarding What Qualifies For The Work-Abroad RO Credit:

Assuming that after reading the information in the guide Appendix A you conclude you can honestly report that the reason for certain days abroad was reason "A," and other days reason "C," and you elect to rely on the working-abroad credit, it is OK to complete Question 5.5 by respectively selecting these reasons in the drop down.

In addition to selecting reason "A" or "C" respectively, you need to provide (include with the application) the supporting documents that show you are entitled to credit toward the RO based on that reason. Again, follow the instructions in the guide Appendix A.

Thus, for example, for days outside Canada that you conclude you can honestly say the reason meets the criteria set out in the guide for Situation "A" you select that reason in the drop down AND include with the application the supporting documents that show you are an employee of a Canadian business and that as a term of your employment you were sent outside Canada to work on behalf of the business . . . for a business that meets the "Canadian business" criteria, the letter from a qualified superior describing the nature of the assignment pursuant to which you traveled outside Canada on behalf of the business, while employed full time by the business, is the main thing.

How much proof the company is a Canadian business should be included will vary depending on the business; some businesses are more obviously a Canadian business than others (for those employed by their brother's small business, best to fully document the business meets the "Canadian business" criteria; for those employed by the RBC (Royal Bank of Canada) or CNR (Canadian National Railway) or Rogers Communications, for example, just the say-so of an official with the company on the company letterhead should suffice). I suspect Amazon Canada is more like the latter but how much proof to include is a judgment call for YOU to make in conjunction with whatever official in the company is providing the letter.

Regarding "not for business travel" comment:

It is not for business travel.

Not sure what this means.

I am sure that some (not all) business travel outside Canada on behalf of a Canadian business, while employed full time by that business, can qualify for the working-abroad RO credit. Discussed at length here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-i...it-including-business-trips-an-update.607559/

To be clear, among common misconceptions seen occasionally in this forum is the erroneous claim that business trips do not qualify for the working-abroad credit. Some will. Some will not. Neither the label "business trip" nor characterization of the temporary assignment abroad as "business travel" is what matters.

 

[armoured]

Hello,

I'm apply for a PR renewal process and currently work for Amazon Canada.
Here's how my days look like when i filled the PR renewal application:

• Total time spent outside Canada: 1111
• Total time spent outside Canada due to reasons A, B or C: 155
• Total time spent outside Canada excluding reasons A, B or C: 956

Question:
1. Reason A says "You have been employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province." . I've travelled outside due to work as i had to travel to Amazon HQ in Seattle and other Amazon locations often. Given that I worked for Amazon Canada which is a Canadian registered business of Amazon, can i claim my days outside Canada as i was travelling for work?
2. Reason C says "You have been accompanying a PR who is your spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, your parent and who is employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province." I've travelled outside Canada with my wife who works for a canadian business (to accompany her for work, or other reasons). Can this be claimed as well?

You've been doing this for a while, so to remind, you can mostly continue doing what you're doing instead of applying now.

For background see here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-i...times-on-expired-pr-card.844011/post-10813882

I very much refer you to @dpenabill's post above. While you CAN apply now, it quite likely will take you longer to get the PR card renewal than if you just waited until you had 730 days in Canada in the last five years (less than 1095 days outside Canada in last five years). By math, this might mean as little as a few weeks (plus ideally a buffer of perhaps two more weeks, although it's sometimes disputed here whether some buffer makes much of a difference).

You can keep doing what you've been doing.

Except for reading carefully:

Based on what is given in the form it seems yes, but i was surprised to see this because the official IRCC site says i can only claim days outside if I work for below companies or accompany a PR/Citizen spouse who works for below companies:

• Canadian Armed Forces
• federal public administration
• public service of a province or territory.

Can someone help clarify what the actual case is? I was pleasantly surprised to read i'm eligible to renew but wanted to check with the experts here to see what Reason A, C actually means.
Thanks again for all your help and guidance!!

Read that page again. It is about citizenship, not PR card renewal / RO compliance.

 

[deehat]

Hi everyone, I have a situation as follows:

Background
My PR card expires in Jan 2025 and I am working overseas for a Canadian company.
I have a full time permanent position with the Canadian company - the company is Headquartered in Canada and only recently opened an international office somewhere in Europe. The company has been operating for 35 years. I have obtained articles of incorporation and business licenses from the company.

I am on the Canadian payroll, my salaries, taxes etc. are all domiciled in Canada. My manager, performance reviews etc. are all done from Canada. I come to Canada every now and then to attend some company events and regularly attend meetings in person if I'm in Canada or remotely via Zoom/Teams where I'm abroad. In other words, I am keeping ties with the Canadian business.

As mentioned, my role is a Permanent full time role, and as part of my role, I am seconded to one of our customers overseas for a 3 year period. To re-iterate, my contract is full time permanent with no end date, but as part of that, I am on a 3 year secondment to an overseas customer. After the secondment, I am to return to Canada permanently and continue in my regular role. I currently work on projects for the customer at 0.8 and for the company at 0.2. I have obtained a letter from my HR confirming same.

My visa to the overseas country is temporal and has an end date that coincides with the end date of my secondment with the overseas customer. So this further demonstrates that my stay in that country is temporal and only for the duration of the secondment.

I have all the documents to back up my claims above.

My concern
I am in Canada in few weeks and I am thinking of applying for PR card renewal given that I'm within the 9 months period (expiry is in Jan 2025). However, I would not be staying in Canada for more than 3 weeks less 1 day and will be going back overseas due to my overseas work for the Canadian business. I would prefer applying early and maybe coming back in November where I can stay till the application is complete. I'm concerned about what might happen in that situation. For example, since it will be clear from my application that I might be overseas while the application is being processed, I don't know what might happen during the two months I'm overseas (Sept, Oct) if the application happens to be processed during that period, considering IRCC doesn't ship cards overseas. And how that affects my ability to enter Canada.

Alternatively, I'm thinking of holding on till November, stay back and apply for the PR renewal, and wait till it gets issued.

I am not a US citizen (and don't hold a US visa) so going through land border etc. is not an option.

What would you (anyone) advise?

@dpenabill thank you for your many posts, I had read most of them including some of the court cases you linked, and they helped me shape my thinking about the whole thing. Initially, I just thought of it as being straightforward but those judgments helped to clarify the important points to hit - which is what I've tried to highlight above. I've also got a LOE detailing my entire situation similar to the background I've given above. I'm just not sure when to apply. And my application is being reviewed by an immigration lawyer too, just to dot everything.

Thanks.

 

[canuck78]

Hi everyone, I have a situation as follows:

Background
My PR card expires in Jan 2025 and I am working overseas for a Canadian company.
I have a full time permanent position with the Canadian company - the company is Headquartered in Canada and only recently opened an international office somewhere in Europe. The company has been operating for 35 years. I have obtained articles of incorporation and business licenses from the company.

I am on the Canadian payroll, my salaries, taxes etc. are all domiciled in Canada. My manager, performance reviews etc. are all done from Canada. I come to Canada every now and then to attend some company events and regularly attend meetings in person if I'm in Canada or remotely via Zoom/Teams where I'm abroad. In other words, I am keeping ties with the Canadian business.

As mentioned, my role is a Permanent full time role, and as part of my role, I am seconded to one of our customers overseas for a 3 year period. To re-iterate, my contract is full time permanent with no end date, but as part of that, I am on a 3 year secondment to an overseas customer. After the secondment, I am to return to Canada permanently and continue in my regular role. I currently work on projects for the customer at 0.8 and for the company at 0.2. I have obtained a letter from my HR confirming same.

My visa to the overseas country is temporal and has an end date that coincides with the end date of my secondment with the overseas customer. So this further demonstrates that my stay in that country is temporal and only for the duration of the secondment.

I have all the documents to back up my claims above.

My concern
I am in Canada in few weeks and I am thinking of applying for PR card renewal given that I'm within the 9 months period (expiry is in Jan 2025). However, I would not be staying in Canada for more than 3 weeks less 1 day and will be going back overseas due to my overseas work for the Canadian business. I would prefer applying early and maybe coming back in November where I can stay till the application is complete. I'm concerned about what might happen in that situation. For example, since it will be clear from my application that I might be overseas while the application is being processed, I don't know what might happen during the two months I'm overseas (Sept, Oct) if the application happens to be processed during that period, considering IRCC doesn't ship cards overseas. And how that affects my ability to enter Canada.

Alternatively, I'm thinking of holding on till November, stay back and apply for the PR renewal, and wait till it gets issued.

I am not a US citizen (and don't hold a US visa) so going through land border etc. is not an option.

What would you (anyone) advise?

@dpenabill thank you for your many posts, I had read most of them including some of the court cases you linked, and they helped me shape my thinking about the whole thing. Initially, I just thought of it as being straightforward but those judgments helped to clarify the important points to hit - which is what I've tried to highlight above. I've also got a LOE detailing my entire situation similar to the background I've given above. I'm just not sure when to apply. And my application is being reviewed by an immigration lawyer too, just to dot everything.

Thanks.

How long did you work for the Canadian employer in Canada before being transferred abroad?. Why is your employer paying you through their Canadian headquarters. Are they not declaring that you live abroad? Assume you have a WP or are a citizen of the other country which would typically mean you have to be paid and pay taxes in country where you are a resident. Have you informed CRA that you live outside Canada and have them determine your tax residency status?

 

[deehat]

How long did you work for the Canadian employer in Canada before being transferred abroad?. Why is your employer paying you through their Canadian headquarters. Are they not declaring that you live abroad? Assume you have a WP or are a citizen of the other country which would typically mean you have to be paid and pay taxes in country where you are a resident. Have you informed CRA that you live outside Canada and have them determine your tax residency status?

I was schooling in that country and applying for jobs. I got the offer letter but as part of the contract, I was to stay back in the country for a secondment with a client. I accepted the offer. My employer did not have an international office at the time. I have a work permit in that country so I was able to work there and the employer could employ me due to my PR status hence I was paid via my Canadian bank account and my taxes are paid in Canada. I pay some local taxes from the councils but as I don't earn salary here, I don't pay any work-related taxes here. I have a no-pay visitor status with the client I am seconded to. I have not specifically informed CRA about tax status, I just file my taxes normally.

I should add that it is clearly laid out in my secondment agreement to the client that 'employment costs' will all be paid in Canada.

 

[dpenabill]

My PR card expires in Jan 2025 and I am working overseas for a Canadian company.
I have a full time permanent position with the Canadian company - the company is Headquartered in Canada and only recently opened an international office somewhere in Europe. The company has been operating for 35 years. I have obtained articles of incorporation and business licenses from the company.

I am on the Canadian payroll, my salaries, taxes etc. are all domiciled in Canada. My manager, performance reviews etc. are all done from Canada. I come to Canada every now and then to attend some company events and regularly attend meetings in person if I'm in Canada or remotely via Zoom/Teams where I'm abroad. In other words, I am keeping ties with the Canadian business.

. . . . . . . .

What would you (anyone) advise?

I have often said that for PRs who really need the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit, qualifying for it can be tricky. That might be an understatement.

I am no expert. I cannot offer a reliable opinion about whether you will get credit for days outside Canada based on the exception, or how to best approach the situation.

I can say that generally leaving Canada after applying for a new PR card increases the risk of a referral to the Domestic Network as a "complex" case, leading to delays and an increased risk of an in-person pickup if the application is approved and a new card issued. IRCC appears to strongly prefer that PRs living outside Canada utilize the PR Travel Document process to facilitate return travel to Canada rather than obtain a new PR card.

@canuck78 raises some pertinent questions. But also some not at all pertinent to what will affect your PR status (which no matter how important in other regards tend to be a distraction when addressing the immigration issues involved). And in regards to the latter, asking whether you are a citizen of the country where you are working, it is clear @canuck78 has posted without actually reading your post.

What is in the letter from HR can make a big difference. The extent to which the letter makes it clear you are a full time employee of the Canadian business who has been assigned to work outside Canada TEMPORARILY can be important. This should be clear in the HR letter addressed to IRCC, or letter on your behalf from another company official. And that you will be returning to continue your employment IN Canada at the end of the assignment.

What the Canadian business actually does IN Canada that makes it a Canadian business might matter, depending on how obvious or not-so-obvious it is that it is a Canadian business. As affirmed in the letter, and consistent with the facts of course.

How well you were settled IN Canada and what job you had for this business IN Canada BEFORE being sent ("assigned") to work outside Canada can make a difference.

Frequency and duration of travel (actual travel, not virtually) to Canada in the meantime could have some influence.

It is not clear what your references to November are about. If you are returning to Canada to stay in November, or before your PR card expires (meaning in time you will still be able to board a flight to Canada without needing a PR TD), it would be far better to wait to apply for a new PR card. Especially if you could then stay for a good long while, long enough to firmly establish your residence back in Canada and show that you have in fact continued to be employed by the same business IN Canada, before making the PR card application.

If however your employment outside Canada will be continuing beyond the date your PR card expires, I cannot offer an opinion about how to best approach this. Thing is, if your circumstances are such that IRCC is likely to process the PR card without contesting your eligibility for the working-abroad credit, it is likely you shouldn't have a problem getting a PR TD later.

You might want to meet with an immigration lawyer about this. Which might not be easy. If you were well settled IN Canada, well established in your employment with the company, BEFORE going outside Canada on this assignment, probably not much to worry about. Otherwise I do not know.

 

[deehat]

I have often said that for PRs who really need the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit, qualifying for it can be tricky. That might be an understatement.

I am no expert. I cannot offer a reliable opinion about whether you will get credit for days outside Canada based on the exception, or how to best approach the situation.

I can say that generally leaving Canada after applying for a new PR card increases the risk of a referral to the Domestic Network as a "complex" case, leading to delays and an increased risk of an in-person pickup if the application is approved and a new card issued. IRCC appears to strongly prefer that PRs living outside Canada utilize the PR Travel Document process to facilitate return travel to Canada rather than obtain a new PR card.

@canuck78 raises some pertinent questions. But also some not at all pertinent to what will affect your PR status (which no matter how important in other regards tend to be a distraction when addressing the immigration issues involved). And in regards to the latter, asking whether you are a citizen of the country where you are working, it is clear @canuck78 has posted without actually reading your post.

What is in the letter from HR can make a big difference. The extent to which the letter makes it clear you are a full time employee of the Canadian business who has been assigned to work outside Canada TEMPORARILY can be important. This should be clear in the HR letter addressed to IRCC, or letter on your behalf from another company official. And that you will be returning to continue your employment IN Canada at the end of the assignment.

What the Canadian business actually does IN Canada that makes it a Canadian business might matter, depending on how obvious or not-so-obvious it is that it is a Canadian business. As affirmed in the letter, and consistent with the facts of course.

How well you were settled IN Canada and what job you had for this business IN Canada BEFORE being sent ("assigned") to work outside Canada can make a difference.

Frequency and duration of travel (actual travel, not virtually) to Canada in the meantime could have some influence.

It is not clear what your references to November are about. If you are returning to Canada to stay in November, or before your PR card expires (meaning in time you will still be able to board a flight to Canada without needing a PR TD), it would be far better to wait to apply for a new PR card. Especially if you could then stay for a good long while, long enough to firmly establish your residence back in Canada and show that you have in fact continued to be employed by the same business IN Canada, before making the PR card application.

If however your employment outside Canada will be continuing beyond the date your PR card expires, I cannot offer an opinion about how to best approach this. Thing is, if your circumstances are such that IRCC is likely to process the PR card without contesting your eligibility for the working-abroad credit, it is likely you shouldn't have a problem getting a PR TD later.

You might want to meet with an immigration lawyer about this. Which might not be easy. If you were well settled IN Canada, well established in your employment with the company, BEFORE going outside Canada on this assignment, probably not much to worry about. Otherwise I do not know.

Thank you @dpenabill, the HR letter states clearly that the assignment overseas is temporary and that I will return to Canada to continue my role at the end of the secondment. I believe it would be obvious that the business is a Canadian business and as I said it is based in Ontario and has been operating for 35 years in Canada. It only recently opened 1 international office otherwise, its other offices are in Canada.

As per my reference to November, I'm talking with the company to let me come back in November with a plan to stay and apply for my PR card renewal, and wait until the card is issued. I'm coming in few weeks but the plan now is to stay for about 3 weeks and return overseas. I understand it is better to just wait till I come in November, then I could apply and wait till the card hopefully is issued. I will prioritise this latter option. I was only thinking of applying now due to the timeframe, so that hopefully when I'm back in November, the application will be close to complete.

Also, as the secondment will be continuing beyond the date my PR card expires, I'm not sure what happens even with the 'November plan' given that it will be clear from the secondment agreement and the HR letter that I intend to go back overseas. So I'm worried that might lead to what you mentioned about a referral as a complex case. I have met an immigration lawyer about this already and they had advised that I meet the requirements but just need to show all the relevant evidence.

Thanks again for your response.

 

[canuck78]

Thank you @dpenabill, the HR letter states clearly that the assignment overseas is temporary and that I will return to Canada to continue my role at the end of the secondment. I believe it would be obvious that the business is a Canadian business and as I said it is based in Ontario and has been operating for 35 years in Canada. It only recently opened 1 international office otherwise, its other offices are in Canada.

As per my reference to November, I'm talking with the company to let me come back in November with a plan to stay and apply for my PR card renewal, and wait until the card is issued. I'm coming in few weeks but the plan now is to stay for about 3 weeks and return overseas. I understand it is better to just wait till I come in November, then I could apply and wait till the card hopefully is issued. I will prioritise this latter option. I was only thinking of applying now due to the timeframe, so that hopefully when I'm back in November, the application will be close to complete.

Also, as the secondment will be continuing beyond the date my PR card expires, I'm not sure what happens even with the 'November plan' given that it will be clear from the secondment agreement and the HR letter that I intend to go back overseas. So I'm worried that might lead to what you mentioned about a referral as a complex case. I have met an immigration lawyer about this already and they had advised that I meet the requirements but just need to show all the relevant evidence.

Thanks again for your response.

Did you work for the Canadian company in Canada and for how long? Those are very important pieces of information to determine whether you may be able to count time abroad working for the Canadian employer. The fact that you are also being paid as a Canadian resident and that you may not have determined your tax residency status in Canada through CRA also an issue although not related to your PR status.

 

[deehat]

Did you work for the Canadian company in Canada and for how long? Those are very important pieces of information to determine whether you may be able to count time abroad working for the Canadian employer. The fact that you are also being paid as a Canadian resident and that you may not have determined your tax residency status in Canada through CRA also an issue although not related to your PR status.

Thanks @canuck78 , I responded to your previous post but it's awaiting moderator approval so it hasn't come up. I didn't work for the Canadian company for long before moving out of Canada. I was overseas for studies when I got my PR status. Upon completion of studies, I applied for jobs in Canada and got the offer of employment in Canada but was then assigned to work overseas on this secondment. So I barely worked a month in Canada for this company. On this issue, while I am aware it is tricky with IRCC, there is no formal requirement that a PR must have first worked for the said Canadian business in Canada before proceeding to work overseas. I believe there has also been a ruling/IAD decision about this.

Thanks for your response.

 

[canuck78]

Thanks @canuck78 , I responded to your previous post but it's awaiting moderator approval so it hasn't come up. I didn't work for the Canadian company for long before moving out of Canada. I was overseas for studies when I got my PR status. Upon completion of studies, I applied for jobs in Canada and got the offer of employment in Canada but was then assigned to work overseas on this secondment. So I barely worked a month in Canada for this company. On this issue, while I am aware it is tricky with IRCC, there is no formal requirement that a PR must have first worked for the said Canadian business in Canada before proceeding to work overseas. I believe there has also been a ruling/IAD decision about this.

Thanks for your response.

You do have to show that it is a temporary transfer so yes it could be a serious issue that you never appeared to have really worked or settled in Canada. You also need to be speaking with CRA since it sounds like you were never a tax resident or resident of Canada. Why is your employer not paying you through their European office? Assume you must have a WP or be able to legally work in the country where you are located. This isn’t a temporary situation you have been living abroad for multiple years and never appeared to have settled in Canada.

 

[deehat]

@canuck78 , thanks for your comments. However, I suggest you read my first post on my situation. I stated that I have a 'temporal' visa which expires the same time as the secondment contract. By definition, a secondment is a temporal assignment and I have evidence that my secondment is temporal (there is a start and end date on the secondment contract). My job contract however, is different and is a permanent contract with no end date. So the secondment is a part of my indefinite employment contract. The company only 'recently' opened a European office (I mentioned this in my first post). When I started the secondment, they only had offices in Canada. Also, I am seconded to a 'customer' overseas. I do not work out of their international office. They are staff in that office who earn in the local currency but my role is not based there, my role is based in Canada as per how I was hired.

As for CRA, thank you for the information, I will raise this with my company.

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks @canuck78 , I responded to your previous post but it's awaiting moderator approval so it hasn't come up. I didn't work for the Canadian company for long before moving out of Canada. I was overseas for studies when I got my PR status. Upon completion of studies, I applied for jobs in Canada and got the offer of employment in Canada but was then assigned to work overseas on this secondment. So I barely worked a month in Canada for this company. On this issue, while I am aware it is tricky with IRCC, there is no formal requirement that a PR must have first worked for the said Canadian business in Canada before proceeding to work overseas. I believe there has also been a ruling/IAD decision about this.

Note: the following observations are NOT intended to evaluate whether YOU will be allowed the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit (lets refer to this as the WA4CB credit). There are some situations in which it is more or less obvious that the odds are very good, or not at all good, and it is an easy call one way or the other.

Otherwise, and this is rather common, and appears to apply in your situation, I cannot opine what decision IRCC or CBSA will make. I can say and do say with emphasis that any opinions expressed in a forum like this, as to what IRCC or CBSA will decide, should NOT be relied on.

My observations are intended to illuminate what we know about relevant factors that can influence IRCC and CBSA decision-making. For someone in your situation this is to help YOU make decisions about how to best proceed based on YOUR own best judgment, including whether or not to obtain the assistance of a reputable, competent Canadian immigration lawyer to help you decide how to proceed, and in particular whether to rely on being allowed the WA4CB credit toward meeting the Residency Obligation.

@canuck78's question about how long you worked for the Canadian business IN Canada before being sent/transferred/assigned outside Canada is indeed one of the more pertinent questions referencing circumstances/factors that can indeed have a big influence in how it goes.

This is especially relevant in assessing whether the PR was in fact employed in a position in Canada and then temporarily assigned to work outside Canada or, for one example, was employed to work at a position outside Canada, that is, employment akin to a local hire (as in, were you hired by the business to do the work outside Canada, which would not qualify, or hired for a job in Canada but then assigned to work outside Canada).

How this factor influences the overall determination as to whether the PR gets the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit can be complicated and very difficult to forecast if there is any cause to question it. This is where a range of evidentiary factors have influence. Did I mention that qualifying for this credit can be quite tricky? (Yes, I did, with emphasis.)

Some (just some) relevant factors (assuming there is no reason to doubt the business itself meets all the criteria to qualify as a Canadian business for this specific purpose) include:

-- was the PR clearly settled IN Canada BEFORE being assigned to work outside Canada​

-- was the PR clearly established as an employee of the Canadian business BEFORE being assigned to work outside Canada​

-- was this employment arranged to support a claim for the WA4CB credit in order to allow the PR to meet the RO (note, if the business itself is determined to be for such a purpose that conclusively precludes credit; but even if that exception to what qualifies as a Canadian business does not apply, the more it appears this employment might be about allowing the PR to live outside Canada the more it can have a negative influence in the decision-making)​

-- a wide range of factors involving the nature of the employment itself, including but not limited to whether the employment relationship is such that the PR will continue in it upon the PR's return to Canada, among other factors such as those related to whether the PR is employed full time by the Canadian business​

As you note, in at least one case (and sure, perhaps in more) the fact the PR did not first work IN Canada did NOT definitively preclude getting the WA4CB credit. But BEWARE it is nonetheless still a factor and it can be a key factor (and in more than a few other cases has been) tending to push the needle in the direction of not allowing the WA4CB credit.

While again I cannot forecast how this will go for you, assuming there is no reason to at all doubt that the business itself qualifies, this may be the key factor for you in determining whether you are, in effect, a local hire (hired by the business for the position outside Canada) or hired to work for a position IN Canada but temporarily assigned to work in the position outside Canada. If the former, no WA4CB credit; if the latter, credit likely allowed.

. . . I have a 'temporal' visa which expires the same time as the secondment contract. By definition, a secondment is a temporal assignment and I have evidence that my secondment is temporal (there is a start and end date on the secondment contract). My job contract however, is different and is a permanent contract with no end date. So the secondment is a part of my indefinite employment contract. The company only 'recently' opened a European office (I mentioned this in my first post). When I started the secondment, they only had offices in Canada. Also, I am seconded to a 'customer' overseas. I do not work out of their international office. They are staff in that office who earn in the local currency but my role is not based there, my role is based in Canada as per how I was hired.

This suggests you have a strong case documenting your work outside Canada is pursuant to a temporary ("temporary" is the more applicable term, not "temporal") assignment likely meeting the WA4CB criteria.

But that does NOT preclude IRCC or CBSA scrutiny of the underlying facts and circumstances. If you were well-settled IN Canada before being assigned to work outside Canada, what you describe would likely make this an easy to call case, one that those of us in the forum could credibly say is very likely to qualify for the WA4CB credit.

I cannot say, because I do not know, to what extent IRCC, or potentially CBSA in the Port-of-Entry (PoE) when you are arriving here, might approach your case more skeptically if in contrast you were not actually settled IN Canada before getting assigned to the position outside Canada. Note that there are what appear to be, what may be seen to be, some incongruities in the underlying details (this is not the place to get into those weeds and the facts are what they are: these are things that will not determine if you are allowed WA4CB credit, but they could trigger questions elevating how strict the scrutiny is).

I can say the odds are probably quite good there will not be a problem at the PoE, at least not a serious problem, when you next arrive here. But again there is some risk otherwise. It warrants noting that the risks involved can vary depending on many factors, including factors that do not directly involve WA4CB credit criteria. Can make a big difference, for example, in whether Residency Obligation credit is being assessed attendant a PoE examination, or a PR card application, or an application for a PR Travel Document.

I will address the latter in another post. To illustrate how even non-relevant factors can nonetheless influence how things go. Did I mention that getting this credit can be tricky. Yeah, I have, a lot, with emphasis.