PR renewal online application, RO presumably met with days working for Canadian business overseas, how slow can it be?

[armoured]

No, you previously talk about the week (Mon to Sun) and now you talk about the work week (Mon to Fri). Two different things. Yet, we both agree OP work in the US 3 out of 5 days (Mon-Wed).

I read the first post as obviously intended to mean majority of the [work] week, even if the work part of it was left out. Context. So let's just drop this disagreement.

 

[kong20100902]

Thanks for the detailed and professional reply. CBSA officers were very happy to help and I was released at NEXUS lane the following time I crossed. Warning is still there though.
After contacting MP, I was provided the information that my new PR card has been sent to IRCC Vancouver office and IRCC will make appointment with me to pick up. Thanks again for your reply.

The Setting; Where Things Stand:

If you qualify for the working-abroad RO credit and thus you are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, you can RELAX. However long it takes to process the PR card application, issue and deliver you a new PR card, should not matter much. You do not even need a valid PR card. If this goes on for awhile, your expired PR card will suffice for driving across the border (at least into Canada; I don't know what U.S. side requires).

Border officials cannot (and will not) deny you entry into Canada. Again, even if you only have an expired PR card to present. They can examine your RO compliance. So, the border crossing may involve increased inconvenience a few times, but if you do not have a RO compliance issue, that inconvenience is not likely, not at all, to continue. (More about this below.)

Meanwhile, yes, if IRCC completes processing your PR card application, determines you meet your RO, approves the application and issues a new PR card, that too would likely eliminate referrals for Secondary screening during border crossings. That would solve the problem of inconvenient border screening. There are, however, no guarantees about how long that is going to take. Telephone calls and webform communications are not likely to accelerate the timeline, not by much.

The catch: What happens going forward depends on you actually being in RO compliance, which in turn, at this juncture, depends on your time in the U.S. qualifying for the working-abroad credit. This is the real issue, the real fulcrum in your situation. If your information and supporting documents show RO compliance, the hassle of Secondary at the border is going to diminish, probably go away. If your information and supporting documents show RO compliance, your PR card application should not take too much longer and you should have a new card in hand before too long.

In contrast, if there are concerns about whether you are in RO compliance, questions challenging your entitlement to RO credit for time working-abroad, the PR card application is likely to get bogged down in non-routine processing with potentially significant delays. And, meanwhile, in one of these upcoming referrals to CBSA Secondary at the border, attendant a more thorough and formal examination of your RO compliance, if there are real concerns about your RO compliance a decision will be made whether to prepare a 44(1) Inadmissibility Report, and if so, that would be followed (probably then and there, while you are still in the PoE) by a determination whether to allow you to retain PR status or whether to issue a Removal Order.

That is to say your situation does not depend so much on accelerating IRCC's processing of your PR card application anywhere nearly as much as it depends on your information and supporting documents showing you qualify for the working-abroad credit and therefore meet the RO. This is what looms largest in your situation. Qualifying for this credit is subject to some strict criteria, and many PRs have misunderstood and misjudged how the criteria apply in their particular situation. There is more to it than just being employed by an ostensibly Canadian business while outside Canada. So some will say something like it is "hard to count time working abroad for a Canadian employer."

Nonetheless, if you do actually qualify for the working-abroad RO credit, as I said above, you can probably relax. To the extent there are repeated referrals to Secondary when crossing the border, they should become routine, brief and not difficult, and it is NOT likely you will actually be "pulled in every time," nowhere near that.

The Catch About The Catch: There are enough hints of a potential admissibility issue to apprehend the possibility it is not readily clear you qualify for the working-abroad RO credit. Meaning there may be an underlying problem here more serious than the inconvenience of repeated referrals to Secondary. In fact, that's the fulcrum:

If there is no serious underlying issue regarding your RO compliance, there is no serious problem, no reason to apprehend that future border crossings are going to be much inconvenient let alone pose a serious problem. ​

​

In contrast, if there is reason for CBSA or IRCC to question your RO compliance, to challenge the claim for working-abroad RO credit, that's likely to be the real issue, the real problem . . . and spoiler alert: if this is an issue, at the very least it is likely your PR card application has gone into non-routine processing and that could take significantly longer, perhaps a lot longer.​

Dealing With Secondary at the Border:

To the extent there are repeated referrals to Secondary going forward, mostly be prepared to readily explain:

-- your are a PR living in Canada (presenting your PR card)​

-- you meet the RO and have applied for a new PR card​

-- you are regularly traveling into the U.S. to work on assignment by your Canadian employer (may be good idea to carry and present a copy of the letter from your employer you submitted with your PR card application)​

And carry in hand, in a way that makes it easy to present, copies of certain documents, including a copy of the employer's letter (the one you included with your PR card application, or a more recent version), and documents showing your address in Canada, and a copy of a Notice of Assessment (or other tax-related document showing Canadian employment), or two, from previous years. No need for a lot. Just a few, keeping it simple.

Unless there is reason to challenge the working-abroad RO credit, thus reason to question your RO compliance and whether you are inadmissible, that should resolve any concerns border officials have. Subsequent referrals to Secondary should go easier and easier, and actually are NOT likely to continue, at least not frequently.

BUT, again, there are indications that there may be an issue about qualifying for the working-abroad credit, leading to . . .

Main Thing; Qualifying for The Working-Abroad RO Credit:

Since you have already made an application for a new PR card in which you rely on the working-abroad credit, I assume that you followed the instructions and provided supporting documents in accordance with the section of Appendix A, in the guide for a PR card application titled "Situation A. Employment outside Canada." So you probably have reviewed the applicable criteria and provided the required letter from an official in your employer's business meeting the criteria described in the instructions.

A lot could ride on how well the letter from your employer documents meeting the criteria for the working abroad credit. If the letter shows what is listed in the guide, supports your claim to working-abroad credit (that you were outside Canada on a TEMPORARY assignment for your employer, a qualified Canadian business, expected to return to Canada to work for that employer IN Canada when the assignment is done), that should do the trick . . . you should be OK . . . and assuming your factual situation does support the credit and RO compliance, you can probably shrug off the border official's threat.


What If Your Time In U.S. Does Not Qualify for Working-Abroad Credit?

That's H&C consideration time. Big subject. Just as tricky as qualifying for the working-abroad credit.

For now, prepare to make your working-abroad RO credit case to border officials and, meanwhile, maybe review what you submitted with your PR card application, looking especially at the employer's letter in conjunction with what is described in appendix A in the guide, and objectively (as best you can) take careful stock of how confident you are that you are entitled to the working-abroad credit. And decide whether to ride with it, see a lawyer, or pose some further questions here.

 

[kong20100902]

I probably didnt explain my situation clearly. I have been working for the same Canadian employer since June 2018 while I was still on PGWP.

Between Jan 10th 2019 (the day I got PR status) and Feb 1st 2020(right before I physically moved to WA), I resided in Point Roberts, WA and commuted to work in Richmond, BC where my company is headquartered.

Between Feb 1st 2020 and July 24th 2023, I resided and worked in Washington State.

Since July 24th 2023, I have been residing in Surrey and commuting to Washington State to work from Mon-Wed (I come back to Surrey every night) and have been working in Richmond BC headquarter on Thursdays and Fridays.

I am a US citizen.

While working in the US during Feb 2020 to July 2023, because I got paid in CAD, I paid Canadian federal and BC tax as a non-tax resident (although I was ineligible for any Canadian gov benefit LOL).

On the day I was pulled into secondary inspection, the CBSA officer was nice enough to leave notes on my profile so that the next day I crossed the border back home, the officer in the booth was able to release me immediately even he saw the warning. I think part of the reason is that I showed them my T4 slips for the past couple of years on my phone.

I talked to my MP and she was able to confirm my new PR card has been sent to IRCC Vancouver office and I just need to visit them to confirm my residency obligation.

My employer indeed assigned me to work for our US facility for a certain period of time and I am required to go back to work in Canada. So I do not think there is any RO issue despite the fact that my residency situation is really complicated.

Thanks for everyone's inputs on my situation. I apologize for any confusion I might have caused.

 

[dpenabill]

Warning is still there though.

I am offering further observations given this continued "warning."

It is not clear what the warning is, precisely. Or what it means. Or whether it signals a potentially troublesome issue. But in conjunction with a referral to the local office and an in-person PR card pick-up required, there is some suggestion there could be a problem, a significant RISK your RO compliance is being questioned, perhaps even challenged.

Maybe not. Maybe there are NO significant let alone troublesome issues involved. It probably depends on IRCC's assessment of your claim to working-abroad RO credit.

So, at the least the prudent approach for you, now, is to take careful stock, reviewing the company letter and other information, and evaluating as objectively as possible how confident you are about qualifying for the working-abroad credit, and as I said in the closing paragraph of my previous post, decide whether to ride this out, or see a lawyer.

Frankly, again given the continued warning and the in-person card pick-up, unless you are indeed fully confident you qualify for the working-abroad credit, based on taking a very hard, objective look at things recognizing how tricky qualifying for this credit can be, you might want to seriously consider seeing a lawyer, at the least a paid-for, in-depth consultation with an immigration lawyer. $300 to $600, to have a lawyer examine and evaluate the details of your case, including a review of the supporting documents submitted with the PR card application.

Note: timing also indicates likelihood that the initial PoE/border control secondary referral was triggered by an ALERT in your file from IRCC's processing the PR card application. Not for sure signaling a problem, but there is a risk this is about IRCC questioning your RO upon opening and examining your PR card application.

You could pose more questions here, in this forum, but these kinds of cases are typically too tricky to be reliably analyzed in a forum like this (in which, as already seen here, above, the discussion is prone to distraction in largely irrelevant or insignificant tangents), leading to . . .

Thanks for the detailed and professional reply.

While I invest considerable effort in posts like this, based on a good amount of homework, my responses are NOT professional, and should not be mistaken to be . . . in my previous response to you, in particular, my main objective was to provide enough information it would help you focus your thinking, your self-analysis of the situation in particular, and direct your decision-making toward assessing whether or not you might need a real professional, a lawyer.

Warning is still there though.
After contacting MP, I was provided the information that my new PR card has been sent to IRCC Vancouver office and IRCC will make appointment with me to pick up. Thanks again for your reply.

Overall the situation appears to depend on the same fulcrum: could be NO serious problem, or there could be a potentially serious admissibility issue looming. In particular:

If the facts and circumstances, as documented in the information and supporting evidence submitted with the PR card application, establish you are entitled to the working-abroad credit, odds are high there is NO PROBLEM; good to go, good to stay.​

​

However, it is possible that IRCC has real concerns about your RO compliance, and perhaps may be questioning, possibly even challenging the working-abroad credit, which could lead to inadmissibility proceedings and a hearing to decide whether to issue a Removal Order (which would terminate PR status subject to your right of appeal).​

Some Explanation:

Routine processing of a PR card application typically (almost always, other than random quality control checks) results in the new card being MAILED to the PR. In-person pick-up is non-routine. Referral of file to local IRCC office is non-routine.

That is to say the processing of YOUR PR card application is NOT routine.

Why, and what that entails, varies. Non-routine processing can vary from some minor, minimal additional (non-routine) screening, to full blown inadmissibility proceedings. That is, it can vary from little or no problem to a serious problem. Even when you get the notice for a scheduled pick-up of a new PR card, it may not reveal whether you will merely need to pass a counter-interview screening, mostly focused on verification of identity and presence in Canada, and a few key details, VERSUS a more thorough examination which will determine if you are delivered a five year PR card or a one-year PR card, whether a 44(1) Report is prepared initiating inadmissibility proceedings.

That is, the fact of non-routine processing in itself reveals rather little, other than there continues to be at least some risk your PR status is in jeopardy, which appears likely to depend on the working-abroad credit, or if that is denied, depending on sufficient H&C considerations to allow you to keep PR status despite a breach of the Residency Obligation.

Considering Whether to Ride-it-Out, For Now Anyway:

Many PRs on the cusp of potential inadmissibility (for RO breach) proceedings will choose to more or less ride-it-out, see how it goes, rely on their own capacity to handle their case. At least up to the stage where a Removal Order is issued.

There are a few things to consider in deciding whether you choose to do this, to put off obtaining the assistance of a lawyer while you see how it goes in attending a scheduled in-person card pick-up, only going to a lawyer if IRCC proceeds with inadmissibility proceedings, or perhaps not getting a lawyer involved unless a Removal Order is issued. How confident you are about qualifying for the working-abroad credit is one. But another is how confident you are about making a decent H&C case as a back-up, in case IRCC does deny working-abroad RO credit. As noted before, H&C considerations are, alone, a big subject, but in addition to the positive weight in your favour because you are currently maintaining your long-term, permanent residence (residence in fact) IN Canada, in addition to that the raw numbers are perhaps the biggest factor: how many days you have actually been physically present IN Canada. So, for example, the number of days you were IN Canada Jan 2019 to Feb 2020, looms large if you need to make a H&C case for keeping your PR status.

Since a PR continues to have PR status even after a Removal Order is issued, for as long as an appeal is pending, and the appeal hearing is de novo, there is not a lot of additional risk involved waiting to obtain a lawyer's assistance depending on whether a Removal Order is issued. We don't have statistical data allowing us to quantify outcomes, but my sense, my guess, is that many PRs more or less save their PR status in such proceedings without a lawyer. That said, if things go to the stage where a Removal Order is issued, it really is time to Lawyer-Up.

 

[YVR123]

I probably didnt explain my situation clearly. I have been working for the same Canadian employer since June 2018 while I was still on PGWP.

Between Jan 10th 2019 (the day I got PR status) and Feb 1st 2020(right before I physically moved to WA), I resided in Point Roberts, WA and commuted to work in Richmond, BC where my company is headquartered.

Between Feb 1st 2020 and July 24th 2023, I resided and worked in Washington State.

Since July 24th 2023, I have been residing in Surrey and commuting to Washington State to work from Mon-Wed (I come back to Surrey every night) and have been working in Richmond BC headquarter on Thursdays and Fridays.

I am a US citizen.

While working in the US during Feb 2020 to July 2023, because I got paid in CAD, I paid Canadian federal and BC tax as a non-tax resident (although I was ineligible for any Canadian gov benefit LOL).

On the day I was pulled into secondary inspection, the CBSA officer was nice enough to leave notes on my profile so that the next day I crossed the border back home, the officer in the booth was able to release me immediately even he saw the warning. I think part of the reason is that I showed them my T4 slips for the past couple of years on my phone.

I talked to my MP and she was able to confirm my new PR card has been sent to IRCC Vancouver office and I just need to visit them to confirm my residency obligation.

My employer indeed assigned me to work for our US facility for a certain period of time and I am required to go back to work in Canada. So I do not think there is any RO issue despite the fact that my residency situation is really complicated.

Thanks for everyone's inputs on my situation. I apologize for any confusion I might have caused.

With all the details, now your situration make sense. Good that you will have your PR card ready soon.

 

[canuck78]

With all the details, now your situration make sense. Good that you will have your PR card ready soon.

B

I probably didnt explain my situation clearly. I have been working for the same Canadian employer since June 2018 while I was still on PGWP.

Between Jan 10th 2019 (the day I got PR status) and Feb 1st 2020(right before I physically moved to WA), I resided in Point Roberts, WA and commuted to work in Richmond, BC where my company is headquartered.

Between Feb 1st 2020 and July 24th 2023, I resided and worked in Washington State.

Since July 24th 2023, I have been residing in Surrey and commuting to Washington State to work from Mon-Wed (I come back to Surrey every night) and have been working in Richmond BC headquarter on Thursdays and Fridays.

I am a US citizen.

While working in the US during Feb 2020 to July 2023, because I got paid in CAD, I paid Canadian federal and BC tax as a non-tax resident (although I was ineligible for any Canadian gov benefit LOL).

On the day I was pulled into secondary inspection, the CBSA officer was nice enough to leave notes on my profile so that the next day I crossed the border back home, the officer in the booth was able to release me immediately even he saw the warning. I think part of the reason is that I showed them my T4 slips for the past couple of years on my phone.

I talked to my MP and she was able to confirm my new PR card has been sent to IRCC Vancouver office and I just need to visit them to confirm my residency obligation.

My employer indeed assigned me to work for our US facility for a certain period of time and I am required to go back to work in Canada. So I do not think there is any RO issue despite the fact that my residency situation is really complicated.

Thanks for everyone's inputs on my situation. I apologize for any confusion I might have caused.

Based on what you are describing I still fail to see how you qualify to count time working abroad towards your RO. You were living in the US when you were sent to work abroad in the US again. You may have even remained living in the same home in WA. You would still be able to count the days spent in Canada towards your RO but unless you have spent 730 days in Canada in the 5 years since landing based on the days working in Canada from 2019-2020, days spent living in Canada since July 2023 and any days visiting randomly during the 5 years I think that is the big issue. Given that you are living in Canada it would be very unusual for an MP to guarantee that there is no issue with your PR card renewal after your file had been flagged and when you are required to do an in person pick-up of the card which is not typical for people living in Canada unless there a concern that you may not be in compliance with your RO. May turn out to be fine but MPs aren’t typically on a position to guarantee an outcome in a similar scenario. If you subtract the time working abroad how many days did you spend in Canada based on when you submitted your PR car for renewal? If you added time time in Canada since your renewal?

Did you have CRA determine your tax residency status in Canada when you were working and living in the US? Is there a reason you were paid from the Canadian office if working full-time from the US office? Do you have ties to Canada/BC like a spouse or children under 22 living in Canada or other ties? If you had no ties to Canada and were working abroad I find it surprising that you were a non resident but a tax resident of Canada. You even specify in your post that you were a non-tax resident.