PR reneval with less than 730 days, before 5 years since becoming a PR.

[dpenabill]

Can you please tell me if you applied for your PR extension and if it was granted. I am in the same situation.

[quoting scenario reported by @JackC]

Atefeh

There is no such thing as a "PR extension."

To be clear about what constitutes, roughly, "the same situation:"

JackC's primary question was about making a PR card application prior to the fifth year anniversary of the day JackC landed, considering that at the time JackC had not yet been present in Canada 730 days. But JackC was nonetheless IN COMPLIANCE with the PR Residency Obligation, having NOT been outside Canada more than 1095 days since the date of landing. JackC was, however, cutting it close. In contrast JackC also had a backup H&C card since JackC had a child born IN CANADA since coming and settling in Canada.

Those are all very significant details. And, a fairly unusual combination of facts. Which means that how things have gone for JackC will NOT likely be much help for you. It is your specific factual situation which will determine more about how things go for you.

In particular, if your situation and question is about

-- applying for a new PR card prior to the fifth year anniversary of the date you landed
-- you have not yet been IN Canada at least 730 days since landing, AND
-- you are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation (that is, you have been outside Canada FEWER than 1095 days since the date of landing)​

It may be OK to apply for a new PR card sooner than later BUT THIS DEPENDS ON SOME PARTICULAR DETAILS, details in YOUR particular situation.

If you can wait, it is BEST to not apply for a new PR card until you have actually been present for 730 days within the past five years (and since landing of course).

IF IN CONTRAST, if you have been outside Canada for more than 1095 days since the date of landing, AVOID applying for a new PR card UNTIL you are in FULL COMPLIANCE with the PR Residency Obligation.

 

[Anaar]

There is no such thing as a "PR extension."

To be clear about what constitutes, roughly, "the same situation:"

JackC's primary question was about making a PR card application prior to the fifth year anniversary of the day JackC landed, considering that at the time JackC had not yet been present in Canada 730 days. But JackC was nonetheless IN COMPLIANCE with the PR Residency Obligation, having NOT been outside Canada more than 1095 days since the date of landing. JackC was, however, cutting it close. In contrast JackC also had a backup H&C card since JackC had a child born IN CANADA since coming and settling in Canada.

Those are all very significant details. And, a fairly unusual combination of facts. Which means that how things have gone for JackC will NOT likely be much help for you. It is your specific factual situation which will determine more about how things go for you.

In particular, if your situation and question is about

-- applying for a new PR card prior to the fifth year anniversary of the date you landed
-- you have not yet been IN Canada at least 730 days since landing, AND
-- you are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation (that is, you have been outside Canada FEWER than 1095 days since the date of landing)​

It may be OK to apply for a new PR card sooner than later BUT THIS DEPENDS ON SOME PARTICULAR DETAILS, details in YOUR particular situation.

If you can wait, it is BEST to not apply for a new PR card until you have actually been present for 730 days within the past five years (and since landing of course).

IF IN CONTRAST, if you have been outside Canada for more than 1095 days since the date of landing, AVOID applying for a new PR card UNTIL you are in FULL COMPLIANCE with the PR Residency Obligation.

Pls let me know if my understanding is correct.


Person A has lived in Canada for 650 days in aalmost 5 years. Re-enters Canada when a month is remaining in the expiry of the current PR card. Continues to stay on silently- doesn’t apply for a new card or travels outside till they meet the 730 days cut off. Then apply for a PR card renewal. Would it be granted easily or the status could be cancelled? Pls let me know as I’m confused.

 

[dpenabill]

Pls let me know if my understanding is correct.


Person A has lived in Canada for 650 days in aalmost 5 years. Re-enters Canada when a month is remaining in the expiry of the current PR card. Continues to stay on silently- doesn’t apply for a new card or travels outside till they meet the 730 days cut off. Then apply for a PR card renewal. Would it be granted easily or the status could be cancelled? Pls let me know as I’m confused.

NO, at least not entirely.

Moreover, the premise is questionable. There may be a significant RISK there will be NO opportunity to "to stay on silently." That is, the scenario suggests a RISK there will be a RO compliance examination at the PoE upon arrival and IF there is, a RISK the PR, "Person A," will be issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility and a Departure Order.


I feel compelled to preface the explanation . . .

I am NO expert, but what I have posted in just this topic alone covers most aspects of the Residency Obligation issue. And many other forum participants have also offered extensive explanation about how RO compliance is generally enforced, but that includes recognizing a wide range of variable how-it-goes scenarios.

In that you should notice that "RISK" is a pervasive element in almost every scenario. While risk is relative to probabilities, it is more complicated than that. Few scenarios, at least among those which generate questions, have any FOR-SURE how-it-goes outcomes. That is NOT how things tend to go.

I preface a specific response to your questions this way because you pose a question as if you expect a fairly definitive answer. BUT even just the post you quote, let alone what the other posts have observed, emphasizes how variable how-it-goes can be and usually is. Which is to say, if anyone here makes a firm statement about how-it-will-go in the situation you describe, that's enough to disregard that as not reliable.

For one thing, a very big thing, there are many, many other factors which can influence how-it-will-go. How long the most recent absence from Canada was, for example, can loom very large, along with the nature and extent of absences generally. When in the five year history the PR was in Canada can be a significant factor. The individual PR's credibility always looms large. Indications, or the lack of indications, as to the PR's ties to a life in Canada (especially extent to which it appears the PR is settled permanently in Canada), that can have a little or sometimes a lot of influence in how-it-will-go. And how long the PR has been a PR can be a significant factor. Among others.




OK. Your question. First:

"Person A has lived in Canada for 650 days in aalmost 5 years. Re-enters Canada when a month is remaining in the expiry of the current PR card."​

Remember, the expiration date on a PR card is NOT relevant in calculating compliance with the RO. If there are four years remaining before the expiry of the PR card, or four weeks, the calculation of RO compliance is exactly the same.

If a PR arrives at the PoE, returning to Canada, and it has been five years or more since the date of LANDING (date of becoming a PR), the RO calculation counts days in Canada within the previous five years as of that day; if that number is less than 730 the PR is in breach of the RO and subject to being Reported and issued a Departure Order . . . again, this is how it works if there are four years remaining before the expiry of the PR card, or four weeks.

That said, of course the expiration date of a PR card might be a factor in what can trigger questions about RO compliance, and especially so if there is a combination of the PR card expiring relatively soon and the PR is returning to Canada after an extended absence. But of course there are, again, many other factors which can trigger RO compliance questions. Once the border officials are asking RO compliance questions, however, again, the expiration date on a PR card is NOT relevant in calculating compliance.

If there is an examination as to RO compliance at the border, and the PR is short of 730 days presence within the preceding five years, there may NOT be any opportunity, so to say, "to stay on silently." There is the RISK the PR will be Reported, issued a Departure Order, and will need to make an appeal in order to have a chance to keep PR status.


Assuming NOT Reported Upon Arrival When Returning to Canada:

If that happens, again IF that happens, IF the PR is waived through or otherwise allowed to enter Canada without being issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility, that leads to your question.

"Continues to stay on silently- doesn’t apply for a new card or travels outside till they meet the 730 days cut off. Then apply for a PR card renewal. Would it be granted easily or the status could be cancelled?"​

IF the PR is waived through or otherwise allowed to enter Canada without being issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility, YES, the PR can then avoid any transactions with IRCC (so NO applying for a new PR card) or with CBSA (thus no travel abroad, so no PoE examinations upon return) and then the PR continues to stay in Canada long enough to get into compliance with the RO (meaning long enough that as of that day the PR has been IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years) . . . THEN the PR will have almost zero risk of losing PR status. The former breach of the RO is cured. THEN the PR can apply for a new PR card with very little RISK that it would trigger an RO determination of non-compliance (the burden of proof is on the PR, but if the PR has continued to stay in Canada and can reasonably document his or her time in Canada, this should NOT be much if any problem).

That, however, does NOT guarantee there will NOT be any non-routine processing.

That is, the RISK of a decision cancelling PR status would be very low to near zero. BUT that does not necessarily mean the process will go quickly or smoothly, so not necessarily "easily."

How "easily" it goes can depend on many of the same factors which influence border officers in deciding whether to more closely examine a returning PR as to RO compliance. These include, again:

Nature and extent of absences from Canada, especially more recent absences, can loom very large. When in the five year history the PR was in Canada can be a significant factor. The individual PR's credibility always looms large. Indications, or the lack of indications, as to the PR's ties to a life in Canada (especially extent to which it appears the PR is settled permanently in Canada), that can have a little or sometimes a lot of influence in how-it-will-go. And how long the PR has been a PR can be a significant factor. Among others.​

HOWEVER, by the time such a PR applies for a new PR card, the extent to which it appears the PR is settled permanently in Canada (so work history and such can loom large at this juncture), or NOT, probably looms as among the more dominant influences, second only to it appearing that in fact the PR has a credible claim to being in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years (five years as of the day the application is made).

 

[21Goose]

Pls let me know if my understanding is correct.


Person A has lived in Canada for 650 days in aalmost 5 years. Re-enters Canada when a month is remaining in the expiry of the current PR card. Continues to stay on silently- doesn’t apply for a new card or travels outside till they meet the 730 days cut off. Then apply for a PR card renewal. Would it be granted easily or the status could be cancelled? Pls let me know as I’m confused.

Expiry date of PR has nothing to do with status.


1. Is this the first five-year period after getting PR (Did A get PR in 2015, and now you're talking about 2019, for example?)? Or did A get PR more than five years ago?

Let's say A landed as a PR on Jan 1, 2015. That means his first five year period runs from Jan 1, 2015 - Jan 1, 2020.

If, within this period, he stays for 650 days and then leaves Canada, he needs at least another 80 days to meet his RO. If he comes back to Canada on Sep 1, 2019 - there are still more than 80 days remaining in his first five year period, and therefore the chances of him being reported are very low (almost zero). He will be able to re-enter (either with valid PR card, or PRTD, or CoPR at a land border), and then as long as he stays the 80 days and then reapplies, he should have no trouble getting his PR card renewed.

Now, let's assume A landed as a PR on Jan 1, 2013 (well over five years ago). In that case, there is no "credit" given for future days. After the first five year period is over, it becomes a rolling five-year period. This means that, on the day he arrives in Canada, the CBSA officer will count back five years from that day and see if he meets RO.

So if A is coming back to Canada on Sep 1, 2019, the officer will ask if he stayed 730 days between Sep 1, 2014 - Sep 1 2019. If the answer is "yes", then A has met RO and shouldn't have too many issues. If the answer is "No, I only stayed 650 days in the past five years", then the officer can either report him or let him in.

If he is reported, A can lose his PR status. If he is let in without being reported (CBSA has the discretion to do this), then he will have to meet his RO before he interacts again with CBSA/IRCC. Again, that means that on the day he applies for his new PR, count backwards five years and see if A has 730 days of presence.

 

[Anaar]

NO, at least not entirely.

Moreover, the premise is questionable. There may be a significant RISK there will be NO opportunity to "to stay on silently." That is, the scenario suggests a RISK there will be a RO compliance examination at the PoE upon arrival and IF there is, a RISK the PR, "Person A," will be issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility and a Departure Order.


I feel compelled to preface the explanation . . .

I am NO expert, but what I have posted in just this topic alone covers most aspects of the Residency Obligation issue. And many other forum participants have also offered extensive explanation about how RO compliance is generally enforced, but that includes recognizing a wide range of variable how-it-goes scenarios.

In that you should notice that "RISK" is a pervasive element in almost every scenario. While risk is relative to probabilities, it is more complicated than that. Few scenarios, at least among those which generate questions, have any FOR-SURE how-it-goes outcomes. That is NOT how things tend to go.

I preface a specific response to your questions this way because you pose a question as if you expect a fairly definitive answer. BUT even just the post you quote, let alone what the other posts have observed, emphasizes how variable how-it-goes can be and usually is. Which is to say, if anyone here makes a firm statement about how-it-will-go in the situation you describe, that's enough to disregard that as not reliable.

For one thing, a very big thing, there are many, many other factors which can influence how-it-will-go. How long the most recent absence from Canada was, for example, can loom very large, along with the nature and extent of absences generally. When in the five year history the PR was in Canada can be a significant factor. The individual PR's credibility always looms large. Indications, or the lack of indications, as to the PR's ties to a life in Canada (especially extent to which it appears the PR is settled permanently in Canada), that can have a little or sometimes a lot of influence in how-it-will-go. And how long the PR has been a PR can be a significant factor. Among others.




OK. Your question. First:

"Person A has lived in Canada for 650 days in aalmost 5 years. Re-enters Canada when a month is remaining in the expiry of the current PR card."​

Remember, the expiration date on a PR card is NOT relevant in calculating compliance with the RO. If there are four years remaining before the expiry of the PR card, or four weeks, the calculation of RO compliance is exactly the same.

If a PR arrives at the PoE, returning to Canada, and it has been five years or more since the date of LANDING (date of becoming a PR), the RO calculation counts days in Canada within the previous five years as of that day; if that number is less than 730 the PR is in breach of the RO and subject to being Reported and issued a Departure Order . . . again, this is how it works if there are four years remaining before the expiry of the PR card, or four weeks.

That said, of course the expiration date of a PR card might be a factor in what can trigger questions about RO compliance, and especially so if there is a combination of the PR card expiring relatively soon and the PR is returning to Canada after an extended absence. But of course there are, again, many other factors which can trigger RO compliance questions. Once the border officials are asking RO compliance questions, however, again, the expiration date on a PR card is NOT relevant in calculating compliance.

If there is an examination as to RO compliance at the border, and the PR is short of 730 days presence within the preceding five years, there may NOT be any opportunity, so to say, "to stay on silently." There is the RISK the PR will be Reported, issued a Departure Order, and will need to make an appeal in order to have a chance to keep PR status.


Assuming NOT Reported Upon Arrival When Returning to Canada:

If that happens, again IF that happens, IF the PR is waived through or otherwise allowed to enter Canada without being issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility, that leads to your question.

"Continues to stay on silently- doesn’t apply for a new card or travels outside till they meet the 730 days cut off. Then apply for a PR card renewal. Would it be granted easily or the status could be cancelled?"​

IF the PR is waived through or otherwise allowed to enter Canada without being issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility, YES, the PR can then avoid any transactions with IRCC (so NO applying for a new PR card) or with CBSA (thus no travel abroad, so no PoE examinations upon return) and then the PR continues to stay in Canada long enough to get into compliance with the RO (meaning long enough that as of that day the PR has been IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years) . . . THEN the PR will have almost zero risk of losing PR status. The former breach of the RO is cured. THEN the PR can apply for a new PR card with very little RISK that it would trigger an RO determination of non-compliance (the burden of proof is on the PR, but if the PR has continued to stay in Canada and can reasonably document his or her time in Canada, this should NOT be much if any problem).

That, however, does NOT guarantee there will NOT be any non-routine processing.

That is, the RISK of a decision cancelling PR status would be very low to near zero. BUT that does not necessarily mean the process will go quickly or smoothly, so not necessarily "easily."

How "easily" it goes can depend on many of the same factors which influence border officers in deciding whether to more closely examine a returning PR as to RO compliance. These include, again:

Nature and extent of absences from Canada, especially more recent absences, can loom very large. When in the five year history the PR was in Canada can be a significant factor. The individual PR's credibility always looms large. Indications, or the lack of indications, as to the PR's ties to a life in Canada (especially extent to which it appears the PR is settled permanently in Canada), that can have a little or sometimes a lot of influence in how-it-will-go. And how long the PR has been a PR can be a significant factor. Among others.​

HOWEVER, by the time such a PR applies for a new PR card, the extent to which it appears the PR is settled permanently in Canada (so work history and such can loom large at this juncture), or NOT, probably looms as among the more dominant influences, second only to it appearing that in fact the PR has a credible claim to being in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years (five years as of the day the application is made).

Thankyou. Yes the POE and what happens there is luck dependent. As for the time frame- the landing was summer 2016 while the stay began from 2019 October. Now the stay will be permanent with occasional trips back home to visit family which may mean a total of 650 days in the last 5 years (and 630 in the last 2). So yah- significant ties to Canada now that it’s become home. But just an eventuality that may mean not finishing the entire 730 days by summer 2021 and the scenario that may unfold.

 

[Anaar]

Expiry date of PR has nothing to do with status.


1. Is this the first five-year period after getting PR (Did A get PR in 2015, and now you're talking about 2019, for example?)? Or did A get PR more than five years ago?

Let's say A landed as a PR on Jan 1, 2015. That means his first five year period runs from Jan 1, 2015 - Jan 1, 2020.

If, within this period, he stays for 650 days and then leaves Canada, he needs at least another 80 days to meet his RO. If he comes back to Canada on Sep 1, 2019 - there are still more than 80 days remaining in his first five year period, and therefore the chances of him being reported are very low (almost zero). He will be able to re-enter (either with valid PR card, or PRTD, or CoPR at a land border), and then as long as he stays the 80 days and then reapplies, he should have no trouble getting his PR card renewed.

Now, let's assume A landed as a PR on Jan 1, 2013 (well over five years ago). In that case, there is no "credit" given for future days. After the first five year period is over, it becomes a rolling five-year period. This means that, on the day he arrives in Canada, the CBSA officer will count back five years from that day and see if he meets RO.

So if A is coming back to Canada on Sep 1, 2019, the officer will ask if he stayed 730 days between Sep 1, 2014 - Sep 1 2019. If the answer is "yes", then A has met RO and shouldn't have too many issues. If the answer is "No, I only stayed 650 days in the past five years", then the officer can either report him or let him in.

If he is reported, A can lose his PR status. If he is let in without being reported (CBSA has the discretion to do this), then he will have to meet his RO before he interacts again with CBSA/IRCC. Again, that means that on the day he applies for his new PR, count backwards five years and see if A has 730 days of presence.

Thankyou. Landing summer 2016 and more than 600 days out of 650 would be in the last 2 years. Does it help the case?

 

[dpenabill]

Yes the POE and what happens there is luck dependent. As for the time frame- the landing was summer 2016 while the stay began from 2019 October. Now the stay will be permanent with occasional trips back home to visit family which may mean a total of 650 days in the last 5 years (and 630 in the last 2). So yah- significant ties to Canada now that it’s become home. But just an eventuality that may mean not finishing the entire 730 days by summer 2021 and the scenario that may unfold.

Landing summer 2016 and more than 600 days out of 650 would be in the last 2 years. Does it help the case?

For now and until the fifth year anniversary date of your landing, what really, practically matters most is that you avoid being outside Canada for a total of 1095 days since the date of landing. The day you have been outside Canada more than 1095 days (or possibly 1096 considering a leap year), that will put you in breach of the RO.

Thus, when you arrive at a PoE, when returning to Canada, between now and the fifth year anniversary date of your landing, if you have been outside Canada for more than 1096 days since landing, YOU WILL BE AT RISK for being reported and issued a Departure Order. That is a big deal. Especially going forward since there are many indications that the trend is for CBSA and IRCC to more closely and extensively screen for and enforce the RO.


To be clear . . .

"Yes the POE and what happens there is luck dependent."​

NO, this is NOT that much about LUCK.

I referred to several of the more significant factors in my previous post. Those and other factors have a lot, lot, lot more influence in how it might go at the PoE than "luck."

(There are some "luck" factors, though those are mostly factors the PR has little or no control over and cannot predict, not really "luck." Again, the individual PR's actual circumstances have much, much more influence in how things go at the PoE.)

The biggest factor is the actual counting of days. The more days in breach, the bigger the risk. BUT, to be clear, once a PR is short, not in compliance, the PR is at RISK for losing PR status.

Every individual has their own priorities, their own personal situations, so there is no formula for calculating the probabilities and RISK, and what is an acceptable risk. BUT to be clear, once the PR passes the threshold of absence that makes them short of being in compliance with the RO, even if they are able to return to Canada without being reported, the conventional wisdom SOLIDLY weighs against traveling abroad again unless and until they have stayed long enough to be in full compliance.

Even if the PR takes the risk and successfully returns to Canada again, that is no guarantee that is how it will go the next time. PoE officials have been known to wave through PRs a little in breach of the RO multiple times but then the next time the PR is reported and issued a Departure Order.

Yes, a recent pattern indicating the PR is now settled, or at least settling in Canada, can be a big positive factor in how it goes at the PoE when next returning to Canada. But if the PR is not in compliance with the RO, that is the bigger factor, the biggest factor.


HOW MUCH IN BREACH:

As noted, the fact of being in breach is the biggest risk factor. It is difficult to compare the weight of other factors, many of them influencing the weight of each other, context looming large, and perceptions about the PR's credibility being a highly variable and difficult to forecast factor.

That said, among the most influential factors beyond the fact of being in breach itself (which again, until the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, a PR is in breach the day the PR has spent more than 1096 days outside Canada), is just how much the PR is in breach. The bigger the breach, the greater the risk.

Let's be clear: just 650 days present in the relevant five years falls into the BIG breach range. Not by a lot, but that is still in the range of a big breach.

Also be aware that when the summer of 2021 arrives, days in Canada back in 2016 will begin to fall OUT of the calculation (as those days become past the five years that count). Thus, for example, if you landed July 1, 2016 and stayed in Canada for 40 days or so before leaving, as of July 1, 2021 you will need to stay in Canada just to avoid losing days in your calculation. That is, in this example (40 days in Canada in July/August 2016), if you have been IN Canada 650 days as of July 1, 2021, you will continue to have credit for ONLY 650 days ONLY if you stay put in Canada for the next 40 days. That is, in this example, if you have 650 days credit on July 1, 2021, and you STAY put in Canada, you will still ONLY have 650 days credit August 9, 2021.


OVERALL: This forum is rife with tales of woe told by PRs whose cutting-it-close plans crashed. It appears you may already be in breach of the RO or are close to being in breach. It would be prudent to proceed with your eyes wide open, cognizant of the risks, in due consideration of your personal priorities.

 

[ram1]

I am doing self-employment,is it enough for pr card renewal. please let me know thanks

 

[Bs65]

I am doing self-employment,is it enough for pr card renewal. please let me know thanks

Have you met the residency obligation, 2 years out of 5 years at application time employed or not ?

 

[serenus]

Thankyou. Landing summer 2016 and more than 600 days out of 650 would be in the last 2 years. Does it help the case?

HI,
What is the update of your scenario? Did u face any issue?

 

[Manojgdv]

Hi,

My situation:
Landed (as a PR) on February 15, 2015. Spent 7 days in Canada and moved to my home country for business reasons.
Returned to Canada on January 22, 2018. Had a short New Year trip between January 2-9, 2019.
PR card expires on March 3, 2020.

To the present moment (May 27th, 2019) I have:
- Time outside Canada, from becoming PR date (March 15, 2015) - 1071 days.
- Time inside Canada - 492 days.

I want to send my PRC renewal application on the 30th of June, 2019 when I will have:
- Time outside Canada (same) - 1071 days.
- Time inside Canada - 527 days.

I will have a business trip (about 7 days) in January 2020. Thus, by February 15, 2020 I will have a bit more than 740 days in Canada, and about 1080 days outside Canada, which is still in compliance with RO, but very close though.

If I send a PRC renewal application in March 2020 (or even April - July 2020) I expect that it will be delayed beyond the average 4 weeks processing because it is very close to the required 730 days. This is the reason I want to send my application earlier, with a hope that it will take less than 8 months processing. There are several (Canadian-) job-related travels expected in March/April/May 2020, so I would prefer to have a valid PR card rather than to apply for travel document each time.

As far as I know, it is possible to send the PRC renewal application 9 months before current PR card expires, so June-July 2019 should be OK.
My questions:
1) Are there any obstacles for applying for a new PR card before having 730 days in Canada, given that the amount of days outside Canada is less than 1095. This is applicable when the time period from becoming a PR is less than 5 years. The form for PR card renewal asks whether time outside Canada is more (or equal) 1095 days, not whether time inside Canada is more 730 days.
2) Can I travel with an old, but valid PR card while a new one is being processed?
3) If I am outside Canada with an old (and valid) PR card and a new PR card is issued and sent to my home address in Canada, will I be able to enter Canada (actually more important question is will I be able to board the flight to Canada) with an old but not expired PR card. Here I consider the travels less than 10 days.

Since returning to Canada (January 2018), we are well established here, renting the same apartment, our child was born in March 2018, have same job since June 2018.

Thank you!

@JackC, May I know the outcome of your situation. Did you submit and did it succeed?