PR Expired

[koala]

Hello,

I got my PR backin 2002 and stay in Canada for 4 weeks then I came back tomy country and went again to Canada After 3 years by plane.At the airport Immigration officer found that I have exactly 2 yrs to meet residency time and asked me if I will stary for good.I told him that I was only for 2 weeks and then he told me I must resigned my PR.I didn`t sign anything and he toldme that now I knew what will happens.My questions are:

1) If I tried to travel thru the US and cross the border with the PR expired, what are the chances of getting in Canada.Maybe I just can show the landing document. Will lt work?Then I will stay there for 2 yrs to renew my PR.

2. When renewing my PR ( if # 1 is OK) the document that I didn`t sign in the airport will affect me?i It was an official notification of rejecting my PR status?

Please advice !!

 

[Leon]

I don't think they did anything to officially revoke your PR back then because at that time, you still had the chance to meet the residency requirements. Knowing that, why did you not stay for 2 years back then?

If you come back now with your expired PR card, not meeting the residency requirements, it is a lot more likely that they will officially report you for not meeting the requirements and revoke your PR but you can try. If they report you, you have 30 days to make an appeal of why you should keep your PR. If they don't report you, you can stay for 2 years and then renew but you could face some problems settling in Canada with an expired PR card, for example when you try to apply for health care and a drivers license.

 

[koala]

Thanks a lot for your response!!

I already have my driver`s license which is expired right now and I guess I won`t have a problem to renew it. I changed my Texas license to get the Ontario one when I arrived back in 2002

I have also my health and social security number.

Will be better to cross the border or to flight in? Maybe is a good idea to cross the border in a small town and ask a Canadian friend to drive his car....

In the case they refuse me,I don`t have a good reason to say in the appeal. How difficult is now to get the PR?
Regards

 

[Leon]

You are probably better off entering on the land border.

It is probably harder to get the PR now than it was when you got it. You can read http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.asp to see what the requirements are now.

 

[phina1970]

Hi Leon, your posts are very invaluable and useful on this forum. I have read them and I am very impressed with your knowledge and insight . Now I have a question for you. I was married fo rmany years to a Canadian Citizen. We married in 1997 and I became a PR in 1998. However. not everything went well. It was a long, tireing road this marriage and he was more interested in becoming a U.S. Citizen than he was in livingin Canada. So we lived in Canada and made our way to the States, where my family is-Boston. We went back and forth man times, visiting Montreal and one time in 1999, I remember a border officer being particularly angered that I am both a U.S. Citizen (by birth) AND a PR of Canada. Without even considering that I was accompanying my Canadian Citizen husband he took my landing papers out of my U.S. passport, where it was stapled. and told me "you live in the U.S. NOT Canada, we were asked to go inside the building and really I dont' know what happened except that my landing papers were taken away and we proceeded to enter Canada to visit the inlaws. Years later my husband and I divorced in 2008, and during the long ugly divorce proceedings he would not give me my Canadian documents and my U.S. passport. and I ended up going back to Canada to get away from him from 2006-2008 almost 2 years. and just returned to the U.S. for court dates. Then I returned to the U.S. to remarry, and ended up on bedrest for the better part of 8 months, to safely deliver my twin boys. I have finally been able to dig up enough info, and search high a nd low (in my ex's old notes) to get my client ID# with Immigration Canada. I called them they found me inthe system and there was no mention of my pr status being revoved or anything like that i don't even know if they could have sent a letter to our old address in canada-my papers shouldn't have been taken away to begin with_ I was int he company of my husband who was a citizen of Canada. After months I sent away for a true attested copy of my landing papers and -Got it! is there any way, I was reported at all (officer)? I don't know how I would know about it since I was't at a Caanadian address for mail to get to me. They sent me a true attested copy of my landingpapers-so Am I safe to assume I was not reorted? I need a PR card now, It makes my life very hard without it. No insurance card-etc. But they wont issue me one without the pr card. I can file for a PR card, but I am not able to prove I was in Canada for those few years and also, and even now, I just was able to order a replacement sin card. I couldn't do anything before landingpapers replacement came. my ex destroyed everything my sin card, landing papers, everything! even my CSQ. I now have replacement landing papers, and replacement for CSQ, but I am afraid to apply for PR card nw, for fear I cannot prove my residence. should I just stay for 2 years , work, etc and then apply for pr Card? life isnt easy w/out it.

 

[phina1970]

Also, I have crossed the border (US) vermont on new U.S. passport-with new married name, just to avoid the hassle. passports seem scanned now, can they somehow track? I have to visit my husband when he cannot come. I am like a single parent here, my twins are not PR-Yet. must straighten our my own status first I guess. I can't work now cause of the boys. I filed my retro taxes for 5-6 years (just go tmy sin card# to be able to do this). $0 income. staying with my brother in law. I am afraid they wont belive the truth. I am considering apllying for pr card after 2 more years. I kick myself for not applying for PR card years ago, but I thought it was just for travel, now I see most offices want it. I finally have a bank acct now, Got my Concordia ID, but as I said before-no insurance yet and no drivers license. Life is not easy with out it. They only look back 5 years you said, and I don't know if officer ever reported me years ago. Just don't want to risk my PR status. What do you think?

 

[PMM]

Hi

Hi Leon, your posts are very invaluable and useful on this forum. I have read them and I am very impressed with your knowledge and insight . Now I have a question for you. I was married fo rmany years to a Canadian Citizen. We married in 1997 and I became a PR in 1998. However. not everything went well. It was a long, tireing road this marriage and he was more interested in becoming a U.S. Citizen than he was in livingin Canada. So we lived in Canada and made our way to the States, where my family is-Boston. We went back and forth man times, visiting Montreal and one time in 1999, I remember a border officer being particularly angered that I am both a U.S. Citizen (by birth) AND a PR of Canada. Without even considering that I was accompanying my Canadian Citizen husband he took my landing papers out of my U.S. passport, where it was stapled. and told me "you live in the U.S. NOT Canada, we were asked to go inside the building and really I dont' know what happened except that my landing papers were taken away and we proceeded to enter Canada to visit the inlaws. Years later my husband and I divorced in 2008, and during the long ugly divorce proceedings he would not give me my Canadian documents and my U.S. passport. and I ended up going back to Canada to get away from him from 2006-2008 almost 2 years. and just returned to the U.S. for court dates. Then I returned to the U.S. to remarry, and ended up on bedrest for the better part of 8 months, to safely deliver my twin boys. I have finally been able to dig up enough info, and search high a nd low (in my ex's old notes) to get my client ID# with Immigration Canada. I called them they found me inthe system and there was no mention of my pr status being revoved or anything like that i don't even know if they could have sent a letter to our old address in canada-my papers shouldn't have been taken away to begin with_ I was int he company of my husband who was a citizen of Canada. After months I sent away for a true attested copy of my landing papers and -Got it! is there any way, I was reported at all (officer)? I don't know how I would know about it since I was't at a Caanadian address for mail to get to me. They sent me a true attested copy of my landingpapers-so Am I safe to assume I was not reorted? I need a PR card now, It makes my life very hard without it. No insurance card-etc. But they wont issue me one without the pr card. I can file for a PR card, but I am not able to prove I was in Canada for those few years and also, and even now, I just was able to order a replacement sin card. I couldn't do anything before landingpapers replacement came. my ex destroyed everything my sin card, landing papers, everything! even my CSQ. I now have replacement landing papers, and replacement for CSQ, but I am afraid to apply for PR card nw, for fear I cannot prove my residence. should I just stay for 2 years , work, etc and then apply for pr Card? life isnt easy w/out it.

1. You should note that in 1999 under the previous Act you had to remain in Canada for 183 days in every year to retain your PR status. Accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad was only brought in in the 2002 Act.

 

[NBaker]

phina1970: Under the legislation in force when the officer removed the landing documents from the passport pre-June 2002 IRPA it was possible to 'voluntarily relinquish' PR status. It is possible this is what happened in your case. After IRPA it was not possible to do this. Until such times as the appeal period at a land border of 30 days or outside of Canada 60 days is met when a report/determination is made by an officer of failing to meet residency then that person is allowed to enter Canada to await the outcome of the appeal.

Having entered Canada again after June 2002 it may have been as a visitor, not PR.

The best way to learn if you continue to have status as a PR is to either apply for a PR card, seek entry - not just drive up to the primary line at the port of entry, but go into the office and ask, or otherwise contact through the embassy/consulate nearest you and ask.

It has been possible to provide explanations for absence that could result in not having lost PR status. Presently though, there appears to be a significant shift in consideration of H&C factors etc. so one cannot necessarily rely on these as in the past, as a reason for not meeting residency requirements.

koala: Indeed you could try to enter Canada and hope to get the officer that is not doing a good job that day or you could apply through the Canadian Embassy/Consulate that serves your area to make a determination for you.

This manual may assist you with your specific case scenario:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/enf/enf23-eng.pdf

 

[phina1970]

Thank You so much for your replies. I am absolutely terrified to go to the border and present my papers to the border agents. However, I have called Immigration canada and they have confirmed many times that I am a Pernament resident, they still have me in the system, but I am not sure of that means anything. I updated my address with them (they had an address that was very old) and call them before after and during the process of filling out the paper work for a certified true copy of my landing papers. The application for this even req'd a provincial ID and I explained in a letter that they were destroyed/lost. so d I proceeded to do the only thing I could do-go back to Boston and apply for a drivers license (old name) and bring the temporrary one they issue (has picture)make a copy and send that off to them along with the original passport I immigrated to Canada on (has visa). It is by the "grace of God" I even had that-what a monster my ex was!. He was just soo interested in U.S. citizenship. He wasn't even a born Canadian, just someone who immigrated to Canada cause he couldn't come to the U.S.
Do you think that 800# for immigration Canada cannot see if someones PR is revoked? Even when that officer took away my papers, I had already stayed over 6 months in Canada that year. I was living in the USA the 2nd half of tha year, but not forever. Theres usually a hearing for those with their status in jeopardy, atleast I would think so, but who knows if they ever sent a notice out and where it's sent? How could I go back without papers? well I did... and it has been like trying to put together puzzle pieces. no assurance card, no sin card, no landing papers, no CSQ, nothing! the landing papers, we all know what happened at the border. But don't they check to see if your pr status is valid before sending out a true certified copy. I belive the application even asks if I was/am under a removal order rom Canada......any thought? anyone???

 

[phina1970]

I am also wondering if PR is/was revoked or cancelled years ago- wouldn't my sin # be as well? it was in dormant status, due to no tax filings for 5 years, and I have now retro-filed, informing them of the divorce to seperate my ex's tax file from mine. dormant status, doesn't effect anything, but access unemployment ss benefits and accessing info online. I have since getting my replacement immigration landing papers, filled out the paperwork to replace my ss card, and remove it from dormant status (filled out small questionaire as to my whereabouts).

 

[NBaker]

Even in the pre IRPA legislation if you were relinquishing your PR status a document needed to be signed at the border.

If you have subsequently been allowed into Canada as a PR, it is possible you still one particularly if things were not done properly when there was first concern raised about your status.

Not quite sure why you are so frightful of the border. If something was does incorrectly in the past you may very well have a position of appeal. If all is in order then you may have status in Canada and could apply for a PR card. Nothing prevents you from trying.

If you have applied for a certified true copy of your landing document and proof of landing appropriate checks need to be made prior to providing that, by the appropriate departments.

The 800# is supposed to have and provide accurate information, but unfortuately do not always do so - could be someone new, person could misread a screen (maybe they just not too bright) any number of things. Best to apply for proof so you have documentation in hand if asked to provide it rather than relying on a phone call.

Not quite sure where the US driver's licence comes into play since that is evidence of nothing in Canada. Nor is a Canadian driver's licence, alone, for that matter. Far too easy to update one of those without being physically present for it to be used solely as evidence of residence anywhere.

 

[phina1970]

Hi, They req'd a picture ID ont he application for the certified landing papers replacement, and they wanted it to to be a provincial ID. I wrote a letter explaining these are destroyed/lost and submitted my temporary drivers license from Boston (has photo) . I explained in the letter why I am submitting a temmporary Boston driver's license-had no other options. When I couldn't go forward I thought "backwards" meaning I was forced to search my resources in Boston. Before the certified true copy of my landing papers arrived, a leter from immigration Canada came, and it described my "soon to arrive" landing paper replacements as being as good as the original, that it is important to always keep it and only submit copies, and that it can be presented in order to prove my identity and status in Canada. Thats it is the property of the Government of Canada and that it should always be kept in a safeplace". Then ont he bottom of the form itself, it has some "disclaimer" which states "this does not to be used for travel and does not constitute proof of status" this contradiction, unfortunately, has caused me alot of grief with assurance Quebec. I even sent them a letter authorizing them to contact Immigration Canada, to confirm I am a PR and they refuse to do that. This is not a typical case and they just cannot see outside the box. Immigration Canada told me that this statement on bottom of the form is a standard disclaimer they have on all documents leaving ottawa. So here we are. Me, with toddler twin boys in tow, trying to "survive", day to day issues, without their Dad (states) and no Gov't health insurance. Why don't I just stop and "check in" at the border you ask? i don;t know if it's true or I am just unlucky, But I don't see positive reactions, whenit is know that I am a U.S. Citizen AND I have Canadian PR. I went to the regie assurance for health-I have no gov't health insurance. I showed them my long awaited replaced documents and all they could see was that stupid disclaimer! They didn't even bother to read the letter from Immigration! When they asked me about my past and recent health insurance, Itold them it was private insurance and that I cannot contiue that, I am facing hardship. This is private health insirance that doesn't cover us LIVNG in Canada. The worker's response was "Oh you must be independantly wealthy for that"! This is how the U.S. health system works, it's not wealth. Oh she was so nasty. I have since sent all my documents to their office in Qc city, and the responce via mail, is much more Humane. here I am on my own dime, my husband sends us funds, i rely on no gov't support. My brothe rin law has been very hospitable, and it's not to their liking. would they prefer I am like those "other" immigrants? Crazy!

 

[phina1970]

Just an update, I requested info from my immigration file to be sent to me today. I need to know exactly what went on at the border years ago. When this officer took my landing papers from me, I was still in compliance and had been little more than 1/2 a year in canada already, We were living in the U.S. for the "2nd" half of the year, at that point. I don't remember there being a discussion, just taking my papers, I may have signed something, I am not sure-don't remember. If I did sign to relinquish my PR, it was from pure fear I can assure you, and nothing was explained to me. I understand borders need to be protected, but there is no reason for this "rambo" behavior at the border. I belive we told him we were living in the U.S. but it wasn't permanently, it was for the last 4 months of the year, and we had only been 1.5 months in the U.S. at the point. Anyways, there was no discussion or any appropriate forum to explain anything, just an overly zelous Border officer. I am interested in seeing what my file says. However, I hope my request for my complete file, possible relinquish form and all, doesn't trigger some removal order. I put down my address in canada, if they find some signed relinquishment form in the file- I dont know if they flag me for removal or just send me my file info. Anyways I am here, and not sneaking around, and I am not prone to lying and I am ready to face whatever comes-removal, retaining lawyer, whatever.

 

[Leon]

1. You are right. He should not have taken your papers. I have also heard of a case of an immigration officer taking away somebody's PR card when he still met the residency requirements. They are not supposed to do that but you also have to stand up for yourself. You needed to check on this back when it happened. No use talking about it now. In any case, he just took your landing papers and did not report you for not meeting the residency requirements or actually revoke your PR. After all, he couldn't because you still met the requirements (which back then was 6 months a year). Now you have your copy of your landing papers back so you are no worse off than you were before they were taken.

2. If your PR status was never revoked and you lived in Canada for at least 730 days in the past 5 years, you can apply for a PR card. You could have done this in 2008 after you stayed for 2 years. Now the year of 2006 has moved outside the 5 year window. They will only look at the period of June 2007 until now and if you still meet the requirements of 730 days for that period, you can apply to renew your PR card now and sponsor your twins. If you don't, you will have to stay in Canada until you do if you want to be able to get your PR reinstated.

3. Do I understand it correctly that you remarried in the US and your husband is in the US and you must go there to visit him because he can not come to Canada? If this is the case, why are you trying to keep your PR in Canada? Why do you not just live with your new husband in the US? Even if you do get your PR worked out, it does not mean you can go to the US and live there forever and still keep your PR. The residency requirements now are 2 years in 5 so you must make sure you meet them. Unless you stay for 3 years and apply for citizenship. That you keep forever.

 

[phina1970]

HI Leon, thanks for your reply. I do not know if papers were revoked or if I signed something to relinquished them. Things were not calmly explained to me. All the officer saw is that I was merican and and I had said we live or lived there. He did not ask when, or for how long? or even if we planon living in Canada? nothing like that. he waved us over and we went into the building. he mad eme feel like some criminal and I di dnot know whatI did or we did wrong. My husband did not want me to say anything to upset him further. I never hod my passport or landing papers from him-checking in at border. The L papers were stapled to my U.S. passport as was the procedure. How could I have refused to give him my L papers, when he already had them in his hand. We were just checking in at the border, we weren't there to be antimidated. He antimidated us, and we did not know what our rights were. It's worse than a State patrol officer pulling you over. Not only that I was accompanying my "Canadian" husband-absolutely NOT necessary. My husband is working in the USA to support us here. He cannot always be the one to come so we go there to see im sometimes. I do not want to let go of my PR in Canada. If you haven't heard, the USA is in such an economic slump, I don't see it coming up anytime soon. Real estate, stocks everything has gone down. The employment market is very bad too. only thing going up is taxes, school tuition and the cost of food and gas. I stayed from 2006-2008 when I married my husband in the usa June 29. Found myself pregnant early on, with twins no less. Ended up on bed rest for many many months from Nov 2008-all the way till their birth in may 2009 I was in the USA under the care of high risk physician. could not go back to Canada during this time. few months after their birth aug 2009 I returned to Canada with the boys, via our american passports. cause ididnt want to deal with the "drama" at the border with my pr status and my babies intow.. Which I didn't have the replaceement landing papers few months ago. I was then able to apply for a sin card to have it replaced, and file retro taxes..ment of my landing papers at that time. That took a long while cause of all the documents I had to dig up for them. I finally got the my landing papers replaced, but I don't know if that means my pr is still, or if its been voided. I have calledImmigration canada several times and they have always told me I am a pernament resident. I spendt many many months going thru my ex's notes ( he wrote notes) to even find my client id# to start all this. I cannot prove I was here cause ithno paper work, no client # # to call and refer to, i couldn;t replace my immigration paperwork for along while and thats what must be done before you can replace your sin card and open a bank account, and all that. I am living with my brother in law, who was alcard so married to my ex's sister, and knows exactly what I've been thru withthem. I just requeste dmy records I need to know once and for all if my PR sttus is revoked, relinquished? what? maybe it's fine-I don't know. last address Immigration had on me was the address in Montreal from 1998. I can't help but wonder if the officer revoked my PR or or coercdmeinto unknowingly relinquishing it, wouldnt they have my USA address at the time? My sin # is dormant not cancelled_i have since filled out a form to have it in normal status and replaced, and my replacement L papers were sent to me. Hope this is a good sign-I am trying to be positive Leon. If by some mircacle my file looks fine, I'l stay and live here like I am , working and lving "on paper" now tha I have my sin card replaced and a bank account, and then apply for PR card in 2 years. If things are not good inmy file-I may see a Lawyer. What do you think about all this?