PR card renewal Approved, but card stuck in local office :(

[dpenabill]

I am quoting a June post because it reflects the more pertinent information:

thanks a lot. I am confident I met the RO (otherwise I wouldn't have applied to renew), although I was very close to the threshold with only 8 days over the required 730. I just got concerned as the CIC call center person said that "the officer in Sydney approved your application and thought you met the requirements, but the officer in local office thinks that you didn't...and needs to interview you" - it just sounded so definite and serious...and it is taking so long with no communication from them whatsoever.

The length of the timeline might appear to be getting to the stage which suggests there is a problem. What sort of problem is generally impossible to guess in the abstract. For you however, you know there is at least a significant issue regarding proof you have complied with the PR Residency Obligation . . . this is clear from the fact that in the five years prior to applying for the PR card you were outside Canada most of the time, by a big margin, and at best barely met the minimum, and this is according to you.

When you cut it that close, it should be no surprise that CIC is going to have, at the least, questions . . . that there is a significant risk CIC will not rely on your account only in evaluating your eligibility for a new PR card.

Additionally, many anecdotal reports in the forums suggest that a lot of CIC processing was slowed down over this summer and/or continues to be somewhat slower than usual for the election campaign season, so perhaps the continued delay is merely a situational coincidence and either has little to do with issues or concerns about you in particular or is a combination factor leading to the longer timeline.



Regarding CPC Sydney "approval:"

The fact that CPC Sydney has issued a new PR card does not mean much at all. At best, any "approval" by CPC Sydney is conditional, and mostly means that CPC Sydney has verified your current status, that is, that you are indeed a PR (that, for example, you have not been denied a PR Travel Document, or already subject to a 44(1) Report for inadmissibility, or subject to any other proceeding to revoke your status or for removal).

In particular, assessing compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is ordinarily a local office function. The timeline for this varies considerably in general, varies from office to office as well (with hints that Montreal tends to be among the slower ones), and will vary from individual to individual depending on the particular case.


Next step:

An interview is virtually certain, at minimum. It is still possible that your card will be mailed to you, but that seems very unlikely.

It is more likely that, at best, the next step could be counter-pick-up.

A counter-pick-up will include a counter interview. This could be the next step if after doing its assessment the local office is satisfied you met the eligibility requirements for the PR card, and that you are in compliance with the PR RO, subject to verification of certain information in the counter interview. The notice for this would be, essentially, a notice to appear at the local office to obtain (to pick-up) your new PR card, and the notice will include instructions as to what documents to bring with you for this. No guarantee you will actually be given the new PR card when you appear, as you will be given a counter-interview. It will be decided at that time whether to actually deliver the new card to you or to engage in further processing.

Again, however, you cut it really close. You do not say, but I am guessing that your prior PR card expired before you applied for the new card. Cutting it that close, and having not applied for the new card until after the prior card has expired, is indeed bound to lead to elevated scrutiny, a more thorough vetting of you and your circumstances.

Thus, there is the risk that rather than getting a notice to pick up the PR card (and thus just having a counter-interview), you will be either
-- scheduled for a more or less formal interview, or
-- sent the form for a full blown Residency Determination (similar to RQ form that citizenship applicants are sometimes given)

Difference between this sort of interview and a counter-interview is that the counter-interview is largely a check-list interview done by clerical staff, whereas if you are scheduled for an interview, that is a more formal interview, a residency examination, which will be with someone who has a higher degree of authority than the individuals who ordinarily would work the counter.



Overall:

If you have continued to live in Canada since you applied for the PR card, and your accounting of time in Canada prior to applying is readily documented (especially if you were employed in Canada during that time) by objective evidence, there should be no reason to panic or even be much concerned.

There may be some measures you could take to push CIC into acting sooner than it would otherwise, but given the circumstances it is probably prudent to continue waiting.

It would be particularly prudent to just continue waiting unless you are confident of the strength of your proof for showing you met the PR Residency Obligation as of the date you applied for the PR card, and continue to meet the PR RO.

How confident you can be about your proof may not be easy to judge unless, for example, you were employed by a readily recognized Canadian employer (a significant size business and other than a friend's or family member's business) at a location in Canada, with the T4s and CRA Notices of Assessment to back this up . . . that is, if you have proof of being employed for two full years prior to the date you applied for the card, and continuing still, you can be confident that whatever questions CIC has, however probing CIC inquires into your residency, you are OK.

Thus, for example, if indeed you have such proof of employment, among your options:
-- just wait if there is no compelling need to travel abroad in the near future, or
-- you can indeed see a lawyer about this (and perhaps pursuing a Writ of Mandamus to compel CIC to act), or
-- if need be, you can travel abroad and apply for a PR Travel Document for your return to Canada
-- you may alternatively make a new application

Otherwise, probably better just to wait . . . this still could go to the next step any day, or it could still take awhile. Even routine processing at CIC can take longer than seems reasonable to most people, but the timeline for non-routine processing (yours is non-routine just by virtue of the secondary review) can vary a great deal, from long to really long, and longer.

 

[robertonnj]

thank you dpenabill for taking the time and drafting this detailed response!

 

[david1697]

If you have Writ of Mandamus in Canada sue CIC. Summon all the highest officials of CIC to court and have them answer why they don't discharge their duty as they have to. That's what we do in US.

If there is a reason to delay processing they MUST explain to the Judge what it is. If they can't , then Judge orders them to do what they must.

I don't know Canadian laws, so I don't know if you even have WOM over there, and whether your case processing is outside of the norm. But you should research it. Doing WOM (in US) is relatively simple matter, you just pay court fees, fill paperwork and summon to Federal court all the highest officials in charge of government entities responsible for processing of your petition. Not sure how it works in Canada.

 

[robertonnj]

thanks David, I will look into it!

 

[XtremeRules]

Hi dpenabill
thanks for the detailed response. I am somewhat in a situation where I would soon be applying for a renewal of PR Card but I have been running my own registered business here in Toronto as a design services provider to a global list of clients. How should I prepare for proof of residency in this case?

 

[david1697]

Buy a newspaper everyday and take a photo of yourself somewhere in the middle of Toronto (or other city, depending where you live).
Should push come to shove you can bring 365 pictures for each year spent in Canada, with visible proof of your presence.

On a serious note: I don't know answer to your question, but I would assume there are proofs such as banking transactions, utility bills, phone company statements and so on. After all, one has no obligation to receive pay-stubs to maintain residency in Canada. It's just it will be much harder to prove RO (and easier to challenge) if CIC decides to scrutinize your app.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi dpenabill
thanks for the detailed response. I am somewhat in a situation where I would soon be applying for a renewal of PR Card but I have been running my own registered business here in Toronto as a design services provider to a global list of clients. How should I prepare for proof of residency in this case?

This forum is not appropriate for personal advice and posts here are not expert advice . . . in particular, I am no expert.

But, generally running a business in Canada generates plenty of paperwork, from GST/HST tax filings to DBA registration, from personal tax filings to contracts and receipts and so on (for example, while all my clients/customers are outside Canada, all my contracts reflect my business address in Canada, as do all my invoices . . . including transactions with suppliers, which for me is mostly electronic hardware and software, and while a lot of stuff I could purchase cheaper at Staples, there is a local computer store I work with from whom I could get, just by asking, a download of all my transactions going back many years, and they are far more reliable when there is a warranty issue, which for anyone maintaining a business computer network tends to become an issue all too often, failed drives or video cards, and so on).

If you end up being asked to submit proof of presence in Canada, in conjunction with the usual, such as rent receipts or property tax assessments if you own, use of OHIP, and so on, running a business should provide plenty of documentation to show your ongoing business activities in Canada.

Most of which you should not need to submit. I have not looked at the application itself lately, but follow the instructions and submit what is requested. If you have been living in the Toronto area for three plus years now, running a business in the Toronto area for three plus years, the odds of being subject to a Residency Determination are probably quite low.

Push comes to shove, there are friends, family, and neighbours to submit testimonial statements (CIC does not particularly like this kind of evidence, but again if push comes to shove, it is evidence and unless it lacks credibility it has to be considered . . . for example, the friend who says he knows you have been here for, say, three years, that would be not so good . . . whereas the friend who says he went bowling with you, or watched certain sports events with you, or went to movies with you, on a particular night for a specific number of weeks, whatever the truth is, being very specific about actual activities or occasions he was with you in Canada, that works . . . testimonial describing ten actual events or occasions in a year is far better than a general conclusion covering a whole year).

And of course there are the basics: keeping good records of all travel outside Canada, keeping all passports and any other Travel Documents to be available for CIC's inspection. And then there is the CBSA travel history.

Generally only those who are cutting it close or playing games (many, many try to get by without really immigrating to Canada) run into a situation where the level of proof necessary is a concern let alone a difficult issue.

 

[david1697]

I believe there are many immigrants who attempt to "game the system". This is particularly true for those immigrants who come from countries where obeying the law is not a deep rooted part of culture (countries like Argentina, Mexico or Italy come to mind, but there are many others, especially in the so called "third world", where deliberately breaking the law is almost considered a virtue).
A lot of these immigrants do not understand that the way system is built in "law obedient" cultures is that it's in ones' own best interest to do things according to established rules of law, and that the price for "gaming" the system is high enough so that it's not considered a particularly smart thing to do by locals who are part of that culture.
There is a large amount of literature on this subject, my goal is not to go off topic.

However, what I want to say is this: while I strongly believe that there are many immigrants who break the rules, abuse the system and do all they can to cut short corners, it does not appear to me that they are the only culprits out there.

I would bet that there are rather large number of PR's who HAVE LIVED IN CANADA 3 years and submitted ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT, but local offices just sit on their applications and deliberately refuse to process them, pretending that they doubt evidence (yet NEVER scheduling interview to settle the doubt! The common sense would require to make an interview as fast as possible, so the one who is not supposed to be PR by law can be stripped of it, and one who met RO can have a proper ID to travel and go about their business. But they appear to be doing just the opposite, delaying the case processing as long as they can, as if to mentally torture the applicants).
And should you ask them "Why you do this to THIS individual, who had met his RO", they will most likely tell you that there are many others who game system , etc. As if one who did nothing wrong must pay for the transgressions of another.

This is a serious problem, and the only way this can be rectified is by bringing those CIC officers to court who deliberately sit on applications and don't process it, while PR submitted enough of clear evidence to prove their required presence in Canada. There is no other way to deal with it. Period.

Of course, those who have lied in apps and submitted false info will not be good candidates to sue CIC, these are the ones who will hide and try to remain below radars, but those who know that they were in Canada for 3 years and provided enough evidence to prove it (yet are still left in limbo for many months, without any reason whatsoever) should consider taking the case to the Federal Court.
Eventually, if enough court cases are filed, where it is shown that there was no just cause to delay issuing renewed PR Card , the cost of defending it in court will become prohibitive, and new policies will have to be issued to better process these apps (without unnecessary delays etc).

Rules are rules, and they should apply equally to everyone.

No matter whether the RO is good or bad, it's a Law and PR's have no choice in obeying or disobeying it. If they disobey, and get stripped of PR status, we all understand that this is what happens when one doesn't do what one must under the terms of PR conditions.
I am PR and if I stay out of Canada for more than 3 years , get stopped at POE and reported, what can I do?
As bad as it is, I must accept it, such is the rule (although I can debate, discuss, question rationale of it, this doesn't negate the fact that I am subject to the said rule and if it's applied to me all I can do is live with it).

BY THE SAME TOKEN, the CIC also must play fair and timely process cases where it is obvious that the PR had met the RO requirement. Even if PR stayed 3 years and 1 day in Canada (as opposed to 4 years or 5 years of last 5), and submitted a proof for it, there is no grounds whatsoever for CIC officer to subject such PR's to extremely lengthy processing times,keep their renewal app pending even after the PR has been sworn as Canadian Citizen (someone posted about such experience here today), and cause undue hardship "because others who game the system deserve it". That's just plain wrong.

 

[Lammawitch]

Hi dpenabill
thanks for the detailed response. I am somewhat in a situation where I would soon be applying for a renewal of PR Card but I have been running my own registered business here in Toronto as a design services provider to a global list of clients. How should I prepare for proof of residency in this case?

Have you looked at the required documents checklist (page 5 at the link)?
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/forms/IMM5444E.pdf

Do you meet the RO? If so, nothing more is required, *usually*.

If and when more is required, CIC will ask for it, & specify what they want. Often including but not limited to: travel records, bank statements, income tax assessments, etc.

In short: don't worry about it ! The vast majority of "problems" posted here are NOT the norm - people rarely bother to post when "I applied to renew my PR card and the process was totally normal".