PR card expiring, abroad with Canadian wife, holiday to Canada

[immigrate87]

I am a Dutch citizen and got my PR card through Express Entry in March 2018. I was dating a Canadian girl in the Netherlands at the time and the plan was to move to Canada. Long story short, we’re still in the Netherlands, we visit Canada yearly to visit my now wife’s family. We got married in Canada in 2019.

My PR card expires in March. We are planning a holiday in June to visit family.

I understand that I can’t simply request an eTA on my Dutch passport (as I used to do before I had a PR card), but that I HAVE to travel as a permanent resident (source).

As we’re currently in the Netherlands, I can’t renew my PR card because I have to be present in Canada (source).

So I have to request a Permanent Resident Travel Document, even though it says you’re only eligible when you do not have a valid PR card. Mine is valid now, but won’t be in June when travelling.

Anyway, assuming that’s not an issue, I obviously do not meet the residency obligation.

However, it looks like Situation B (“accompanying a Canadian citizen outside of Canada”) may apply here.

My questions:

• It seems silly that I have go to through this whole process for a short 2-3 week holiday, seems like an oversight in the system? Why would I not be able to get a visitor visa, like my fellow countrymen can? Did anyone try to get an eTA in this sort of situation? I don’t want to try it now as I don’t want to flag any systems.
• Would you agree my time living in the Netherlands with my wife would count towards the residency obligation? I am preparing an application and have the following documents. Would this be enough supporting evidence in your opinion?
  • Digital scan of my wife’s Canadian passport
  • Digital scan of my wife’s Canadian birth certificate
  • Digital scan of our Canadian marriage license (we married in Canada on holiday)
  • I have a requested a document from the Dutch government showing all the addresses my wife and I are/were registered, proving that we have lived together since 2019 (earlier, actually, but that time won’t count). I have this documented translated to English by a certificated translator.
• What is the average processing time for the PRTD?
• Granted I do get the PRTD, am I going to have to jump through this hoop every time we want to go on a holiday? I see you can request a PRTD for multiple entries, but how long is this valid for?

Any help is much appreciated!

 

[scylla]

I am a Dutch citizen and got my PR card through Express Entry in March 2018. I was dating a Canadian girl in the Netherlands at the time and the plan was to move to Canada. Long story short, we’re still in the Netherlands, we visit Canada yearly to visit my now wife’s family. We got married in Canada in 2019.

My PR card expires in March. We are planning a holiday in June to visit family.

I understand that I can’t simply request an eTA on my Dutch passport (as I used to do before I had a PR card), but that I HAVE to travel as a permanent resident (source).

As we’re currently in the Netherlands, I can’t renew my PR card because I have to be present in Canada (source).

So I have to request a Permanent Resident Travel Document, even though it says you’re only eligible when you do not have a valid PR card. Mine is valid now, but won’t be in June when travelling.

Anyway, assuming that’s not an issue, I obviously do not meet the residency obligation.

However, it looks like Situation B (“accompanying a Canadian citizen outside of Canada”) may apply here.

My questions:

• It seems silly that I have go to through this whole process for a short 2-3 week holiday, seems like an oversight in the system? Why would I not be able to get a visitor visa, like my fellow countrymen can? Did anyone try to get an eTA in this sort of situation? I don’t want to try it now as I don’t want to flag any systems.
• Would you agree my time living in the Netherlands with my wife would count towards the residency obligation? I am preparing an application and have the following documents. Would this be enough supporting evidence in your opinion?
  • Digital scan of my wife’s Canadian passport
  • Digital scan of my wife’s Canadian birth certificate
  • Digital scan of our Canadian marriage license (we married in Canada on holiday)
  • I have a requested a document from the Dutch government showing all the addresses my wife and I are/were registered, proving that we have lived together since 2019 (earlier, actually, but that time won’t count). I have this documented translated to English by a certificated translator.
• What is the average processing time for the PRTD?
• Granted I do get the PRTD, am I going to have to jump through this hoop every time we want to go on a holiday? I see you can request a PRTD for multiple entries, but how long is this valid for?

Any help is much appreciated!

In order to qualify for an eTA or visitor visa, you would first need to officially renounce your PR status. You cannot obtain an eTA or visitor visa while a permanent resident of Canada.

We cannot tell you with certainty that the time you spent with your Canadian wife in NL will count towards the residency requirement. Likely it would but not guaranteed. IRCC will sometimes apply the "who followed whom" rule in these circumstances. For you to be 100% certain you can count this time, you would want to show that you are outside of Canada primarily due to your spouse's obligations (e.g., employment) and not yours. Having said that, you probably have a decent chance of succeeding and being able to count the time towards RO. I would strongly recommend that you also include evidence to show why your wife is outside of Canada (e.g. employment records, school records, if applicable, etc.).

I don't know the current processing times of PRTDs. Will let others comment.

Sometimes people are granted multiple entry PRTDs. But they aren't valid for too long so most likely you would need to jump through this hoop each year. You can avoid this by renouncing PR. Then you could travel on an eTA. Your spouse can always sponsor you for PR again later.

 

[immigrate87]

In order to qualify for an eTA or visitor visa, you would first need to officially renounce your PR status. You cannot obtain an eTA or visitor visa while a permanent resident of Canada.

We cannot tell you with certainty that the time you spent with your Canadian wife in NL will count towards the residency requirement. Likely it would but not guaranteed. IRCC will sometimes apply the "who followed whom" rule in these circumstances. For you to be 100% certain you can count this time, you would want to show that you are outside of Canada primarily due to your spouse's obligations (e.g., employment) and not yours. Having said that, you probably have a decent chance of succeeding and being able to count the time towards RO. I would strongly recommend that you also include evidence to show why your wife is outside of Canada (e.g. employment records, school records, if applicable, etc.).

I don't know the current processing times of PRTDs. Will let others comment.

Sometimes people are granted multiple entry PRTDs. But they aren't valid for too long so most likely you would need to jump through this hoop each year. You can avoid this by renouncing PR. Then you could travel on an eTA. Your spouse can always sponsor you for PR again later.

Great, albeit a bit of a worrying, reply, thank you! I didn't realise they would apply the "who followed whom", that seems an application can be open to interpretation. I think I can make a pretty strong case that my wife was here for study and now has a job. If they deny the request for PRTD, would that mean I have automatically lost my PR status (and will be able to apply for an eTA on my passport), or do I still have to formally renounce my PR status?

 

[scylla]

Great, albeit a bit of a worrying, reply, thank you! I didn't realise they would apply the "who followed whom", that seems an application can be open to interpretation. I think I can make a pretty strong case that my wife was here for study and now has a job. If they deny the request for PRTD, would that mean I have automatically lost my PR status (and will be able to apply for an eTA on my passport), or do I still have to formally renounce my PR status?

They don't always dig into the "who followed whom" rule. However I think you should be fine on this front.

Yes, if the PRTD is refused, that would lead to a loss of your PR status.

 

[Confused in Toronto]

Re PRTD, I got one that was valid for unlimited entries for a period of 2.5 years (until my passport expired, basically). I was also accompanying a Canadian spouse abroad.

 

[immigrate87]

Re PRTD, I got one that was valid for unlimited entries for a period of 2.5 years (until my passport expired, basically). I was also accompanying a Canadian spouse abroad.

Did you specifically ask for this?

 

[Confused in Toronto]

Did you specifically ask for this?

I did ask for it in an accompanying letter, yes.

 

[dpenabill]

• It seems silly that I have go to through this whole process for a short 2-3 week holiday, seems like an oversight in the system? Why would I not be able to get a visitor visa, like my fellow countrymen can? Did anyone try to get an eTA in this sort of situation? I don’t want to try it now as I don’t want to flag any systems.
• 
  
• Granted I do get the PRTD, am I going to have to jump through this hoop every time we want to go on a holiday? I see you can request a PRTD for multiple entries, but how long is this valid for?

One way around applying for a PR Travel Document is to travel via the U.S., flying to a U.S. city relatively close to Canada, close to your planned destination in Canada, and drive a rental to the border or use other means of land transportation to the border, enter Canada, and have family meet you there or use other means of transportation in Canada.

As to why you cannot obtain the same kind of documentation showing authorization to enter Canada as your "fellow countrymen can," which will facilitate boarding an airline flight to Canada (which, under the rules governing commercial transportation, requires travelers to present very specific documents as to their status to enter Canada), is that the Canadian government considers them Foreign Nationals, whereas you are a Canadian (not a FN). You have a different status. So for those rules governing commercial transportation providers, the provider must verify a traveler's authorization to enter Canada prior to allowing the passenger to board the flight, and only very specific documents meet those requirements. In contrast, for example, you could charter a private plane and fly to Canada without either a PR card or PR TD, much like driving to a Port-of-Entry on the U.S./Canada border.

Note that persons with Canadian citizenship who are also a citizen of the Netherlands, or France, or Germany, must likewise either have a valid Canadian passport or obtain a special TD/authorization to board a flight to Canada from abroad.

Whether or not that is an effective, reasonable system, it is what Canada has had in place for a long while (with modifications along the way) and, it appears, likely to remain in place for a good while to come.

Multi-use, multi-year PR TD:

As @Confused in Toronto has described, many times a PR abroad accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse will be issued a multiple-entry PR TD that is valid for up to five years depending on when the PR's passport expires (in effect, the PR TD will expire the same date as the passport expires, unless the passport is valid for longer than five more years).

Who and when there will be a multi-year, multi-entry TD issued is not clear. Anecdotal reporting varies, but it is insufficient to indicate patterns or what is typical even. But around four or six years ago, or so, we saw a significant increase in anecdotal reports from PRs who were being issued such multi-year, multi-use TDs, and it has been mostly PR's living abroad with a Canadian citizen spouse getting these. BUT not all do.

Residency Obligation compliance and credit for days living together with a Canadian citizen spouse abroad:

Would you agree my time living in the Netherlands with my wife would count towards the residency obligation? I am preparing an application and have the following documents. Would this be enough supporting evidence in your opinion?

• Digital scan of my wife’s Canadian passport
• Digital scan of my wife’s Canadian birth certificate
• Digital scan of our Canadian marriage license (we married in Canada on holiday)
• I have a requested a document from the Dutch government showing all the addresses my wife and I are/were registered, proving that we have lived together since 2019 (earlier, actually, but that time won’t count). I have this documented translated to English by a certificated translator.

There are two parts in answering this.

Accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad: One has been discussed by others above, which is qualifying for the exception which allows a PR credit toward complying with RO despite being abroad, based on "accompanying" a Canadian citizen abroad. I largely concur in the observations posted by @scylla. My sense is that your regular travel to Canada improve the odds there will be no problem being allowed the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit toward RO compliance, and especially so if these are trips you and your spouse have been accompanying (traveling with) one another. This is subject to the uncertainty mentioned by @scylla, largely because you have two risk factors:

-- never having settled and resided in Canada, and​

-- marriage to Canadian citizen after becoming a PR and while living abroad​

Supporting Documents for "Situation B:" The other has to do with what supporting evidence to include with a PR TD application. It warrants emphasizing the too often casually overlooked obvious: Follow The Instructions. Be sure to begin here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/new-immigrants/pr-travel-document/how-to-apply.html and follow the guide, which is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5529-applying-permanent-resident-travel-document.html

You seem to be following the particular instructions which apply to time abroad for reason "B" as indicated in the application, which are in the guide in "Appendix A: Residency Obligation" as described for "Situation B. Accompanying a Canadian citizen outside Canada." So, yes, what you have outlined appears in accordance with that. Maybe include documents showing tickets or itineraries for the trips made to Canada, showing you and your spouse traveled together (as in to show you were accompanying one another).

 

[canuck78]

I am a Dutch citizen and got my PR card through Express Entry in March 2018. I was dating a Canadian girl in the Netherlands at the time and the plan was to move to Canada. Long story short, we’re still in the Netherlands, we visit Canada yearly to visit my now wife’s family. We got married in Canada in 2019.

My PR card expires in March. We are planning a holiday in June to visit family.

I understand that I can’t simply request an eTA on my Dutch passport (as I used to do before I had a PR card), but that I HAVE to travel as a permanent resident (source).

As we’re currently in the Netherlands, I can’t renew my PR card because I have to be present in Canada (source).

So I have to request a Permanent Resident Travel Document, even though it says you’re only eligible when you do not have a valid PR card. Mine is valid now, but won’t be in June when travelling.

Anyway, assuming that’s not an issue, I obviously do not meet the residency obligation.

However, it looks like Situation B (“accompanying a Canadian citizen outside of Canada”) may apply here.

My questions:

• It seems silly that I have go to through this whole process for a short 2-3 week holiday, seems like an oversight in the system? Why would I not be able to get a visitor visa, like my fellow countrymen can? Did anyone try to get an eTA in this sort of situation? I don’t want to try it now as I don’t want to flag any systems.
• Would you agree my time living in the Netherlands with my wife would count towards the residency obligation? I am preparing an application and have the following documents. Would this be enough supporting evidence in your opinion?
  • Digital scan of my wife’s Canadian passport
  • Digital scan of my wife’s Canadian birth certificate
  • Digital scan of our Canadian marriage license (we married in Canada on holiday)
  • I have a requested a document from the Dutch government showing all the addresses my wife and I are/were registered, proving that we have lived together since 2019 (earlier, actually, but that time won’t count). I have this documented translated to English by a certificated translator.
• What is the average processing time for the PRTD?
• Granted I do get the PRTD, am I going to have to jump through this hoop every time we want to go on a holiday? I see you can request a PRTD for multiple entries, but how long is this valid for?

Any help is much appreciated!

How much time have you spent in Canada since landing or in the past 5 years? How much time did you spend in Canada on your initial landing? Assume you never left your job in the Netherlands and kept living your life unchanged after getting PR. How long between landing and getting married? Think the issue of never establishing a life in Canada and not having made plans to move to Canada will be the bigger issue especially since you weren’t married when you got PR. It isn’t as simple as who accompanied whom because you never established yourself in Canada and weren’t married when you got PR. You can never tell how IRCC will rule on these issues especially when you have no plans on returning to Canada permanently. No matter what you are in a good situation. You can always travel to Canada with an ETA if you don’t have PR and if you eventually want to move to Canada your wife could always sponsor you again. Many others have to worry about qualifying for a TRV if they no longer have PR.

 

[immigrate87]

Update: I sent in my application on the 8th of February and got a passport request today.

 

[immigrate87]

Update: passport received, and I received a visa that's valid for 5 years!!

 

[Confused in Toronto]

Happy you got it so quickly, and for five years. Makes life so much easier!