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PR card expires in 3 months, can I still enter Canada?

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,243
8,861
I used the kiosk last year when I arrived in Canada and I was in breach of RO. It didn't flag anything. Printed a receipt
It's my suspicion (which is to say, educated guess) that the kiosks do not 'flag' anything on their own, but primarily - possibly only - search the system for existing flags or database matches (like terrorism watchlists, criminality).

And by existing flags I mean (at least for RO or other things cbsa/ircc would put) flags that are manually entered by an officer, not some calculation. Plus obviously some basic things like whether the PR card is actually expired or otherwise invalid.

I don't think they're doing any calculations or sophisticated other things to pull out people based on some elaborate AI thing. Some of the inputs like exit records that would be needed to calculate RO compliance are new and not yet integrated.

Now a warning: don't rely on that. I would also guess that the system provides for this functionality - eventually. Possibly it's there and hasn't been turned on yet, possibly it just has the 'hooks' to let them do it in future. They may have some very rudimentary aspects already there - like the watchlist functionality. (I think it'd be a big mistake if it didn't have some randomisation functions).

The other reason I don't think they've done this is that until they had the big push to deal with delays last summer, I think everyone with the printed card was going to primary inspection. It seems they started waving people through at some point with little more than a glance at the docs.

Anyway, educated guess - but I don't think the kiosk is counting your days out of country.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,182
It's my suspicion (which is to say, educated guess) that the kiosks do not 'flag' anything on their own, but primarily - possibly only - search the system for existing flags or database matches (like terrorism watchlists, criminality).

And by existing flags I mean (at least for RO or other things cbsa/ircc would put) flags that are manually entered by an officer, not some calculation. Plus obviously some basic things like whether the PR card is actually expired or otherwise invalid.
This and rest of post is a good observation, although the scope of screening criteria is likely at least a little broader than the "basic things like whether the PR card is actually expired or otherwise invalid." I too do not know just what criteria is employed attendant kiosk screening, although I have read that they have at minimum experimented with sensors at the kiosks evaluating things like the traveler's physical characteristics. No great powers of prophecy necessary to forecast that facial identification technology will be utilized sooner than later.

Some additional clarification is nonetheless warranted.

I used the kiosk last year when I arrived in Canada and I was in breach of RO. It didn't flag anything. Printed a receipt
All this illuminates with certainty is that ONE time, ONE PR in breach of the RO was not referred to Secondary after checking in via the kiosk.

To some extent, employing inductive logic, since what happens once tends to indicate the same can and will happen again, it suggests that other PRs in breach of the RO checking in via the kiosk MIGHT similarly be, in effect, waived through without a Secondary referral. This does NOT warrant extending that to suggest there is a low risk of Secondary questioning just by using a kiosk. It absolutely does not indicate there is very little or no risk.

In contrast, there is no doubt that any PR arriving at a Port-of-Entry who is not in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is at risk of a referral to Secondary and potentially suffering Inadmissibility proceedings leading to the loss of PR status. At the least, as @Ponga observed, there is always some risk of a random referral to Secondary.

Beyond that who, when, and why some PRs encounter Secondary examination including questions about RO compliance is a big subject in regards to which much, if not most of the methods and means employed by CBSA, is behind the secret/confidential curtain. Whether the PR is arriving at a major airport and using the kiosk, or arriving at a busy land border crossing with the U.S., or arriving at one of the less busy smaller entry points along the U.S. border, there is little (if any) doubt that PRs in breach of the RO are at some risk of Secondary examination regarding RO compliance EVEN though they are carrying and presenting a valid PR card. Sure, as I have often noted, consistent with many other comments and with what is reported by various individuals, the PR presenting a valid PR card upon arrival has substantially better odds of being allowed entry without Secondary questioning about RO compliance. But it demands repeating, with some emphasis, there is little (if any) doubt that PRs in breach of the RO are at some risk of Secondary examination regarding RO compliance EVEN though they are carrying and presenting a valid PR card and using the kiosk upon arrival.
 

meghashyam75

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
93
3
It's my suspicion (which is to say, educated guess) that the kiosks do not 'flag' anything on their own, but primarily - possibly only - search the system for existing flags or database matches (like terrorism watchlists, criminality).

And by existing flags I mean (at least for RO or other things cbsa/ircc would put) flags that are manually entered by an officer, not some calculation. Plus obviously some basic things like whether the PR card is actually expired or otherwise invalid.

I don't think they're doing any calculations or sophisticated other things to pull out people based on some elaborate AI thing. Some of the inputs like exit records that would be needed to calculate RO compliance are new and not yet integrated.

Now a warning: don't rely on that. I would also guess that the system provides for this functionality - eventually. Possibly it's there and hasn't been turned on yet, possibly it just has the 'hooks' to let them do it in future. They may have some very rudimentary aspects already there - like the watchlist functionality. (I think it'd be a big mistake if it didn't have some randomisation functions).

The other reason I don't think they've done this is that until they had the big push to deal with delays last summer, I think everyone with the printed card was going to primary inspection. It seems they started waving people through at some point with little more than a glance at the docs.

Anyway, educated guess - but I don't think the kiosk is counting your days out of country.
@armoured Thank you!
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,587
13,518
I live and work in a small community of population ~32k, there is just one hospital, they have no nephrologist and no neurosurgeon. People have to travel about an hour to get those services. Half the town goes to Florida at the start of November and return in May. There is no private school for kids and public school doesn’t have enough resources for special needs kids.
Not having access to neurosurgeon, nephrologist or a private school on your local area has nothing to do with quality of life. There aren’t enough services for special needs children in urban centres as well. No country has enough services to properly care for special needs children. Essentially the wealthy in most counties pay out of pocket for extra therapy outside of school hours IF they can find enough therapists in their area. Even private schools only provide a certain level of therapy and aides or else it would be prohibitively expensive. It is a worldwide issue. Most have no need for access to a neurosurgeon ever in their life and same goes for a nephrologist for most people.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,587
13,518
Hi @canuck78 Well. I have tried putting in research proposals with MUN NL considering the chronic illnesses there and also the fact that its a quite remote in Canada but academics don't seem to be to keen on applying for funding in Canada. As I earlier said I would need to have a position in Canada to attract funding. Well its disheartening to note that the academic scenario in Canada is bad. The system of sabbatical is almost scrapped here considering that there are many contenders to fill up one's place. Sabbatical is offered only if one gains a position with a university that has an MOU with the university/school I work in. On another note I wish to know if you or anyone here could advise me if there is a chance that the electronic kiosk can flag a person in breach of residency? what would be the best time/weekday or weekend to land considering that one is traveling from India at Pearson?
Canada is a small country so there are only a limited amount of academic positions. If you have not established yourself in Canada first it makes sense why attracting funding would be difficult. Funding will usually go to those already in Canada. You are essentially saying that you are experiencing the same scenario but in another country by not being able to take a sabbatical because there are people waiting in the wings for any opening in academia. That is why your attempt to come to Canada and at your age is such a risk. There is a reason that Canada prioritized younger immigrants. They are the most successful in the end because they have the time to reestablish careers in Canada.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
55,587
13,518
About 5.5 million Canadians live abroad as reported by stat Can. Thats about 15% of population. (Assume 38million population). This proportion is close to 20% you compare this number to Canadian citizen population of ~30 million. I dont think there’s any other developed country having the same number.
By the way, is there anything wrong with taking citizenship and moving out? After getting all the security clearances, paying taxes, obeying all laws and doing everything as per laws.
Justifies my point that Canada gives away citizenship too easily and paying taxes for 3 years doesn’t justify longterm liabilities. We should at least be on par with the rest of the world with 5 years of stay in Canada to apply for citizenship.
 

meghashyam75

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
93
3
@armoured @canuck78 @dpenabill Thanks very much for your recent suggestions where I was in a dilemma on travelling to Canada to start a new life despite being in breach of my RO. Having completed just a soft landing in 2018 and later could not really get a mid/senior level academic job in dentistry in Canada. I recently consulted an immigration lawyer with several years of experience and was told that I did not have much of hope in retaining my residency in Canada. Nevertheless I did try contacting several people over LinkedIn and emailing for entry/midlevel academic jobs in organizations related to Public Health and Public health Dentistry with the hope of traveling just on some assurance. However, I did not receive a positive response in any manner. After consulting the lawyer, I have decided not to travel to Canada as I do not have solid H& C grounds to appeal other than property related matters, ailing mother and COVID in 20/21. I have decided to leave the matter aside as I am currently working as a professor in India. My PR Card expires in Aug 23 and my question is if the PR status is just left that way without renouncing would that be a problem at a later stage? Is there a possibility of getting a PRTD if after a few years I do manage to get some senior level job? What would be the best course of action? I have no intention of visiting Canada without a job offer at age 48. I would appreciate your advice.
 

Ponga

VIP Member
Oct 22, 2013
10,416
1,468
Job Offer........
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@armoured @canuck78 @dpenabill Thanks very much for your recent suggestions where I was in a dilemma on travelling to Canada to start a new life despite being in breach of my RO. Having completed just a soft landing in 2018 and later could not really get a mid/senior level academic job in dentistry in Canada. I recently consulted an immigration lawyer with several years of experience and was told that I did not have much of hope in retaining my residency in Canada. Nevertheless I did try contacting several people over LinkedIn and emailing for entry/midlevel academic jobs in organizations related to Public Health and Public health Dentistry with the hope of traveling just on some assurance. However, I did not receive a positive response in any manner. After consulting the lawyer, I have decided not to travel to Canada as I do not have solid H& C grounds to appeal other than property related matters, ailing mother and COVID in 20/21. I have decided to leave the matter aside as I am currently working as a professor in India. My PR Card expires in Aug 23 and my question is if the PR status is just left that way without renouncing would that be a problem at a later stage? Is there a possibility of getting a PRTD if after a few years I do manage to get some senior level job? What would be the best course of action? I have no intention of visiting Canada without a job offer at age 48. I would appreciate your advice.
You may want to consider renouncing your PR:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/permanent-residence/card/renunciation-processing.html

If you do nothing, your PR status (in theory) would remain unless/until IRCC decides to take some sort of action to revoke your status (if they even do that proactively). Since you are already in breach of meeting the Residency Obligation to qualify for a new PR card, I suspect that any future PRTD application(s) would be denied, which would, at that point, mean that you have lost your PR status.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
17,243
8,861
Thank you @Ponga I would just clarify if there is any harm in just leaving it aside without renouncing? Regards
You can just leave it, but plan for fact that if you wish to apply for TRV in future, you would need to leave time to renounce and apply.

Obviously if someone applies for a PRTD and gets refused, there may be heightened risk of refusal for TRV (since you indicate desire to retain PR status by applying for prtd). Renouncing in order to apply for trv is not that rare (if you contact IRCC missions about trv as a PR, they'll send you the renunciation form), although trv is never a guarantee.

And yes, if you decide to leave your PR for the time being, it does leave you some optionality about attempting to retain PR status in future. (Subject to, etc etc, so maybe not a lot of optionality in practice).
 
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meghashyam75

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
93
3
You can just leave it, but plan for fact that if you wish to apply for TRV in future, you would need to leave time to renounce and apply.

Obviously if someone applies for a PRTD and gets refused, there may be heightened risk of refusal for TRV (since you indicate desire to retain PR status by applying for prtd). Renouncing in order to apply for trv is not that rare (if you contact IRCC missions about trv as a PR, they'll send you the renunciation form), although trv is never a guarantee.

And yes, if you decide to leave your PR for the time being, it does leave you some optionality about attempting to retain PR status in future. (Subject to, etc etc, so maybe not a lot of optionality in practice).
@armoured. Thank you
 

meghashyam75

Star Member
Dec 20, 2015
93
3
Hi guys my PR card has expired and residency obligations unmet. I believe I have the following choices to make if I intend to enter Canada as PR in future.
1. Renounce and reapply if I am eligible (difficult one)
2. Apply for a PRTD (but I do not have sufficient H&C grounds)
3. Enter via land border.
Which option is the most suitable one in my scenario of not fulfilling the RO? Is crossing through the land border a risky one with an expired PR card? Which land border would be the easiest? I understand the chances of being reported for not fulfilling RO. Appreciate your advice. Thank you.