Please Help!!!

[lijunyu]

When it came time for both families to rectify their respective hukou, were there any penalties assessed?

Were you married in China, and was this before or after the Hukou were corrected?

My wife and I were married in Hong Kong, and our son was also born in Hong Kong. Although Hong Kong is part of the China, it is recognized as a Special Administrative Region. As such, neither were registered in her hukou. We had proper marriage certificate and birth certificate which we had submitted along with our application, and CIC did not have any issues with the apparent discrepancies. Probably because they have come across this many times before.

Did you have a lawyer working with you throughout the appeal and judicial review? Was the lawyer well versed in the intricacies of the Chinese legal system?

I am not sure I understand why the VO thought that your wife could have gone to the US together with her aunt. Was her "aunt" the neighbour that her birth was registered under? Was your wife a minor at the time, and still on their hukou? Did your wife previously try to immigrate to the US, and was refused? You also mentioned the first rejection letter, was there more than one?

Yes, there was a penalty fee they had to pay. We were married in China after the Hukou change when she's an adult. I did not have lawyer for the appeal but I did have one during the judicial review. They lawyer IMO was not experienced in my situation.

The VO didn't think my wife had any intention to immigrate to US with her aunt. VO knowing that her aunt's husband who went to the US alone and then sponsored her aunt. VO concluded my wife's relative has history of sponsoring one family member at a time, therefor assuming my wife will do the same with her family.

First rejection meaning rejection from the interview by the VO.

 

[lijunyu]

Let me put in this way (I am not criticizing you), there is no official way to change all of it. Yes, you may change/update whatever information shown on the Hukou at the local police precinct, but this is just one of the government systems that stored part of your wife's personal identity, backgrounds and histories. And you updated/changed part of the info on one system doesn't mean all other info on other systems will change and update automatically, the perfect example is your marriage registration in China. Officially, your are not couple anymore, at least to the local/city/province bureau of civil affairs (At least on the record, the birth parents shown on the changed Hukou won't match the previous one you used to register your marriage, and they would treat your wife as different person because of that). And one thing you have to understand, CIC does have a way to check official records stored on the Chinese correspondent government systems (Background Check?). Even CIC found that the Hukou changing is official, but that move would really confuse the hell out of them, because when they compare the other records they could obtain from the correspondent Chinese bureaus, there would be so many information that wouldn't match. Also, plus the province you wife resided and the timing of the change, don't you think that it would be so easy for CIC to make a conclusion that your marriage is not genuine or at least marriage of convenience? Oh, having a child in the wedlock is not sufficient enough to CIC that your marriage is genuine or not marriage of convenience.

My suggestion for you is to find a good lawyer in Vancouver or Toronto, there are bunch of them that can speak Chinese and/or are familiar with things or two in China. No, I don't have any referrals.

The hukou change was before the marriage registration. There was not a word about hukou change in all of the rejection letters. Are they allow to leave other reasons out of the letters ? Do they have to put all reasons why I was rejected on the document ?

 

[wait_so_long]

The hukou change was before the marriage registration. There was not a word about hukou change in all of the rejection letters. Are they allow to leave other reasons out of the letters ? Do they have to put all reasons why I was rejected on the document ?

They would have been in the GCMS notes that canuck_in_uk mentioned earlier. The notes would have been part of the bluebook that you received approx 120 days after you sent in the Notice of Appeal. Did you get a detailed written decision after the unsuccessful appeal? I suspect that you would have needed it for the judicial review. If not, it is likely to be in canlii. The written decision from the hearing would probably tell you where you need to focus your efforts.

The situation with your wife's aunt and her husband is very common, and would not be grounds for refusal. You will see many examples of it in this forum. Did they bring it up during the appeal? If not, then it wasn't a big factor in the refusal, if at all.

 

[wait_so_long]

Let me put in this way (I am not criticizing you), there is no official way to change all of it. Yes, you may change/update whatever information shown on the Hukou at the local police precinct, but this is just one of the government systems that stored part of your wife's personal identity, backgrounds and histories. And you updated/changed part of the info on one system doesn't mean all other info on other systems will change and update automatically, the perfect example is your marriage registration in China. Officially, your are not couple anymore, at least to the local/city/province bureau of civil affairs (At least on the record, the birth parents shown on the changed Hukou won't match the previous one you used to register your marriage, and they would treat your wife as different person because of that). And one thing you have to understand, CIC does have a way to check official records stored on the Chinese correspondent government systems (Background Check?). Even CIC found that the Hukou changing is official, but that move would really confuse the hell out of them, because when they compare the other records they could obtain from the correspondent Chinese bureaus, there would be so many information that wouldn't match. Also, plus the province you wife resided and the timing of the change, don't you think that it would be so easy for CIC to make a conclusion that your marriage is not genuine or at least marriage of convenience? Oh, having a child in the wedlock is not sufficient enough to CIC that your marriage is genuine or not marriage of convenience.

My suggestion for you is to find a good lawyer in Vancouver or Toronto, there are bunch of them that can speak Chinese and/or are familiar with things or two in China. No, I don't have any referrals.

Your insights on the Hukou system and the bureaucracy in China are very informative, and interesting. However, I wouldn't think the Chinese government would readily give foreign governments access to their records, at least without your written permission. And without some kind of reciprocal arrangement. In most instances, you'd think CIC would be satisfied with the photocopy of the Hukou that was submitted with the application, which would have had to be both translated and certified to be a true copy.

But you hear all the time about people being refused at the border, so there must be some kind of information sharing going on.

 

[CdnWifeLivingInThailand]

Here is the immigration firm that I am currently using from Vancouver, B.C (never met in person). Still in the waiting process for my Thai husband's spousal sponsorship. Most of them speak Mandarin and/or Cantonese so I would assume that they would be familiar with your intricate situation, but not positive? You could set up a consultation, and see if they would be a good fit or not and see what they would suggest and the set price? They would have you send over information about your previous rejection/appeals before the consultation, so that they can study your situation first to get a better idea of your situation. It is kind of expensive though... Feel free to PM me if you want.

http://www.canadavisalaw.com/about-us/

 

[Miraclejj]

The hukou change was before the marriage registration. There was not a word about hukou change in all of the rejection letters. Are they allow to leave other reasons out of the letters ? Do they have to put all reasons why I was rejected on the document ?

No, they don't have to put all reasons on notes. I read ppl complained CIC field VOs made up stories for rejection at all levels here on this forum. I believe CIC does authorize certain room for field VOs to speculate some cases on their own judgement. Anyway, even they didn't put any notes related to this Hukou change, but obviously, it is the source of the trouble. Otherwise, please enlighten us, what other so called "red flags" you have in your case?

 

[Miraclejj]

Your insights on the Hukou system and the bureaucracy in China are very informative, and interesting. However, I wouldn't think the Chinese government would readily give foreign governments access to their records, at least without your written permission. And without some kind of reciprocal arrangement. In most instances, you'd think CIC would be satisfied with the photocopy of the Hukou that was submitted with the application, which would have had to be both translated and certified to be a true copy.

But you hear all the time about people being refused at the border, so there must be some kind of information sharing going on.

I wouldn't think they share information neither at the very beginning, till very recently I asked my dad to my local Bureau of Civil Affairs to obtain my Single Certificate for the period of my life in China, and they told my dad they are no longer issue this certificate. And my dad asked them how we approve my son's marital status to CIC for the period of time he was in China, and they replied CIC could send in request for that. I believe that is the part of the missions for those field offices to do the official businesses with the Chinese bureaucracies. I mean they don't have to check all the cases to this level, but for the cases that with high level of suspicious, CIC does have a way to check them out.

 

[Miraclejj]

Yes, there was a penalty fee they had to pay. We were married in China after the Hukou change when she's an adult. I did not have lawyer for the appeal but I did have one during the judicial review. They lawyer IMO was not experienced in my situation.

The VO didn't think my wife had any intention to immigrate to US with her aunt. VO knowing that her aunt's husband who went to the US alone and then sponsored her aunt. VO concluded my wife's relative has history of sponsoring one family member at a time, therefor assuming my wife will do the same with her family.

First rejection meaning rejection from the interview by the VO.

Don't you see this is a perfect example that the VO made up some BS stories to reject you? Come on, sponsoring parents is 100% legal in Canada (Unless CIC believes that the parents listed on her application are not her parents and again it is because CIC found out the Hukou change, didn't they?), let along to say it is not like you can successfully sponsor them with no restrictions, you have to meet 3 years of financial requirements and plus the parents have to be qualified for Extended Medical requirements. Plus, it is a F*cking lottery. God knows when you will be successful to sponsor her parents. If it is an only real reason CIC rejected your case, I believe that you do have a legal ground to fight, but I am afraid it is not. Although you said that your marriage registration is done FEW Months after her Hukou change, how about her national ID card (You have to provide card number on application right?)? Have you updated all info stored on its data base that CIC does have a way to check it out? Please don't tell me you believe the national ID card is just a piece of plastic, it stores all info as well. How about her passport (I believe you do provide the passport info as well?), did she get her passport in that FEW months too? If not, then yes, the information associated with her passport wouldn't match her current info, and guess what? CIC could find that out too.

 

[lijunyu]

I really appreciate all the advice guys.
Now either way, the next step would be re-applying , should I hire a lawyer just for filling out applications ? would the application be different for people applying for the second time ? How can a lawyer a make my new application more successful, because it's just filling out mandatory information.

 

[wait_so_long]

I really appreciate all the advice guys.
Now either way, the next step would be re-applying , should I hire a lawyer just for filling out applications ? would the application be different for people applying for the second time ? How can a lawyer a make my new application more successful, because it's just filling out mandatory information.

Before you re-apply, you need to make sure that you've satisfactorily addressed the original reasons for refusal first, or all will be in vain. Having been refused, lost in appeal, and decision upheld at judicial review, your previous application would certainly be a factor when they are assessing your new application. Your file and case history stays with you for life, the same with your wife. So, it's not a fresh start. Having a second refusal in the books would make the third application all that much more difficult. In some cases, it seems to make them dig in their heels even more so:

https://www.thestar.com/news/immigration/2016/12/17/couple-accused-of-having-fake-marriage-despite-their-child.html

With almost every post, we are finding new wrinkles in your case, and I suspect we haven't even scratched the surface yet. Not being privy to your personal and relationship history, your case files, your court decisions, and changes in your relationship since that time, it's impossible to know which of these are relevant, and which are simply red herrings. There are immigration rules to consider, case law and precedents, and now recent changes in immigration policy.

How did your appeal go? You said you had represented yourself, without counsel. At any point, did you feel unprepared, or thought to yourself ... if I had known that was important, I would have ... I guess I shouldn't have said that .... if we had known that, we wouldn't have .... they shouldn't be asking ... A good lawyer would have helped you prepare, asked the hard and uncomfortable questions, anticipated their questions, known the case law and legal precedent, addressed their concerns ahead of time and had the proper evidence to support your case.

The purpose of the judicial review wasn't to rehear your case or consider new evidence.

After all you've gone through, and you still truly think that an application is "just filling out mandatory information", the more reason you should consider hiring a lawyer. As you've admitted yourself, you may have opened up cans of worms which cannot be simply repacked and re-sealed. Unfortunately, a mis-step cannot be remedied by simply taking a step backwards.

Now that you are living with your wife in China, have you maintained ties to Canada? You mentioned earlier that it was after your mother had passed away. What would be your hometown in Canada?

 

[Miraclejj]

I really appreciate all the advice guys.
Now either way, the next step would be re-applying , should I hire a lawyer just for filling out applications ? would the application be different for people applying for the second time ? How can a lawyer a make my new application more successful, because it's just filling out mandatory information.

Before you actually go re-apply your case, please read carefully the post that wait_so_long posted above. To my understanding, in order to considering your re-applying anywhere that near successful is that there is any major changes that would impact on your case, such as you have a baby born (not significant enough though). And to you, take more time to build your case (I believe after your case is rejected by court, they will bar you for two years for re-applying, right? I maybe wrong on this.) Anyway, being patient a bit. There are somethings you can do to rebuilt your case:

1. Officially move back to China to live with your wife and your baby. You can apply a Q1 Visa from Chinese embassy in Canada, and it would allow you to stay 30 days. Once you are there, you can apply for temporary residence permit, and it would allow you to stay there min. 90 days to max. 5 years. And believe me, it is not that difficult to be approved.
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/embassy/visa/family-reunion.htm

2. After you get your TRP, you then think about financial, either you can work under the table (a lot foreigners are doing so), or find and work on a job legally (requires a company that can and is willing to hire you legally, and then you can change your status from Q1 to a working Visa)

3. Keep collecting all the evidences (bills, photos, vacations, and whatever) to prove that you and your wife have an ongoing relationship. Live apart from her family, either buy a house together or rent an apartment together (at where that you and/or your wife can find a job), and list both of your name on documents.

In general speaking, just living your life, because your life isn't just about immigration to Canada. My wife and I had made our decision, if our case would go south, moving back to China for good is one of our option. My kids can make their own decisions, when they reach 18 years old (Both of my kids are Canadian and American). China isn't a terrible place to raise family, though you do need to pay attention to all the short ends, such as air quality, food safety, and etc. Money talks in China, so make a plan, find a job, you will be fine. That means you probably will say goodbye to Canada for at least years. And at the end, after those years, you still want move your family back to Canada, I believe you would have a good chance to do so (Still need a good lawyer for the source of the mess, the HuKou Change, though).

Don't worry about sponsor her family, especially her brother, because in Canada immigration system, there is just very thin venue that she can sponsor her brother (Both parents are passed away, plus he should be 19 yrs old or younger and single, when the application is filed).

 

[lijunyu]

Thank you all the the detailed advice. I in china with a 5 year visa, but i do have to leave every 180 days, I usually just go to hongkong or macau and then comeback, the maximum duration per entry will renew to 180 days.

After my mom past away, the only family I have left in Canada are my sisters and her family, all married and have kids.
My dad has some small investments in china, so he drifts between China and Canada, his not really "lonely" if you know what I mean.(we don't talk about it).

I'm from Scarborough Ontario and still have all my ties in Canada, I still pay a cellphone bill I don't use, does taxes etc, but due to me not being employ in Canada , my income tax is really low .
I'm really conflicted on whether to stay in china and work under the table for 1/5 of what I was make in Canada or go back to Canada and get a full-time employment to get higher taxes. Although there is no requirement for spousal sponsorship, but I know if was a millionaire, they could care less if my marriage was genuine or not.

Now my first step is to hire a lawyer to do my applications for me . Should I hire my last lawfirm
(Niren & Associates Immigration)? Even though I personally feel like they didn't do a good job last time , I really have no experiences to compare them to. They do have all my records and should have better idea of my situation, or should just look for another firm and explain everything all over again?

thanks again guys for all the help.

 

[wait_so_long]

Miraclejj, for family sponsorship, I believe that the two-year ban is only for cases of misrepresentation. Nevertheless, it is good advice not to re-apply right away.

Lijunyu, it sounds like you have a Q1 visa. Not that CIC would recognize it as proof of a genuine relationship, it does show that the Chinese government recognizes you and the inviter (presumably your wife) as family. Spending as much time together with your wife is a good idea; one of the reasons that our application was refused was that the VO claimed that "the sponsor spent little time with you over the course of 4 years of your acquaintance", although we had shown that I had spent every day of my annual vacation with my wife and stepson. One consultant that i met with suggested that I take a 6-month leave from my job, but I couldn't afford that. But it sounds like you made the necessary sacrifices to be able to spend more time with your wife. A tip of the hat to you.

And definitely be there for the birth of your child, and the subsequent confinement period (坐月子).

I don't know if working under the table is a good option, though. You'd want to have documented proof that you are supporting your family , and they would certainly want to know the source of that income. Are you allowed to work on a Q1? There seems to be a big demand for English teachers, especially native English speakers. You might need a Type Z visa.

Your problem might not be as much in proving that you have a genuine relationship, as it is in proving that it wasn't entered into primarily for the purpose of gaining status. Unfortunately, you have given them a reason to think exactly that. How would one go about disproving that? How did you and your wife meet? Did she set out to exclusively meet a foreigner? Did she also go out with local guys?

I can't really give you much advice on a lawyer. But you only engaged your previous law firm for the judicial review, which tied their hands somewhat. The purpose of the judicial review wasn't to retry your case, or allow you to introduce new evidence. "You must show the Court that an error was made in the decision, or the decision was not fair or reasonable."

Several people in a Chinese forum had recommended this lawyer: https://www.dentons.com/en/bill-cheung It doesn't look like immigration is his primary focus any more.

Then there's this lawyer, who uncovered systemic racism against Chinese applicants in the Canadian immigration system: https://www.thestar.com/news/immigration/2015/05/19/immigration-guide-for-detecting-marriage-fraud-called-racist-and-offensive.html

If you are on QQ, come visit chat room 71793115. It's not as helpful as canadavisa.com, but it does show you that you are not alone, and gives you an outlet to vent a bit.

 

[canadianwoman]

Usually to be approved after being refused the first time, you need new evidence - and CIC means different evidence, not more of the same type of evidence. If you stay in China, you will have the evidence that you are living together; you also have a child together. If you do decide to stay in China for a while, I would not work under the table. Get a legal job. You don't need any more complications when you reapply.
Because you were not successful the first time, I would suggest you use a lawyer this time. The firm you used before might be OK, as long as they are immigration lawyers. A judicial review is hard to win, since you cannot introduce new evidence.

 

[Miraclejj]

Thank you all the the detailed advice. I in china with a 5 year visa, but i do have to leave every 180 days, I usually just go to hongkong or macau and then comeback, the maximum duration per entry will renew to 180 days.

After my mom past away, the only family I have left in Canada are my sisters and her family, all married and have kids.
My dad has some small investments in china, so he drifts between China and Canada, his not really "lonely" if you know what I mean.(we don't talk about it).

I'm from Scarborough Ontario and still have all my ties in Canada, I still pay a cellphone bill I don't use, does taxes etc, but due to me not being employ in Canada , my income tax is really low .
I'm really conflicted on whether to stay in china and work under the table for 1/5 of what I was make in Canada or go back to Canada and get a full-time employment to get higher taxes. Although there is no requirement for spousal sponsorship, but I know if was a millionaire, they could care less if my marriage was genuine or not.

Now my first step is to hire a lawyer to do my applications for me . Should I hire my last lawfirm
(Niren & Associates Immigration)? Even though I personally feel like they didn't do a good job last time , I really have no experiences to compare them to. They do have all my records and should have better idea of my situation, or should just look for another firm and explain everything all over again?

thanks again guys for all the help.

It doesn't matter how much you are worth, CIC does care your marriage is genuine or not. Rich people do have a leeway to go to save all the headache, they can apply for the investment immigration visa.

How much that you can make in China is really on you, your education background, your culture background (how deep can you blend into the Chinese society around you) and even your race (Well, unfortunately, Chinese society in general is treating WHITE people, especially those are from English speaking countries, better than even our own,) are all matter. It is not necessary true that you make 1/5 of what you can make in Canada, although the exchange rate for Canadian Dollar to RMB is 1 to 5. Canada and China, they do have Income Tax Treaty between them, so when you file income Tax in China, it would count towards the income Tax in Canada. If you are well prepared and qualified, you can go look for positions posted by Canadian businesses in China, even you can apply positions posted by Canadian Government, such as Department of Commerce or Canada Embassies in China (They do post positions on the job market, just very rare.)

Working under the table isn't that serious of a problem as in Canada, though it does break the law. China doesn't really have Immigration Department to enforce the laws related to it, and average Joe there don't really care about your immigration status. The short come of working illegally in China is that you cannot file income tax and you won't have the benefits. And it is because that the Chinese society is still pay or being paid almost everything by cash (The government tried to push the personal Checking system decades ago, but it failed big time), there isn't any efficient way to trace your income sources as legal or not as in Canada or USA.