Permanent Residence Status - Expire due to Covid

[HCsquared]

Hi everyone,

I know this question has been asked, and I have read about H&C cases with an immigration officer. But we're still not sure what to do, so any help is greatly appreciated.

- My mother's PR status is about to expire this summer due to the 730 days rule
- She has been living outside of Canada with my father, and has been unable to come back due to Covid
- She is over 60 years old, and we don't feel it's safe for her to return to Toronto yet

Technically she could have flew back to Toronto over the past year, but we are just really worried something might happen to her. We were waiting for the Covid situation to get better, but it just keeps getting worse and worse.

If she doesn't fly back to Canada this year, what are the chances that they'll revoke her PR status? And if it's revoked, is it easy for her to get it back? I know everything is pretty much a gamble, but we value her health & safety more than the PR status. We're just really not sure what to do here.

Any inputs are greatly appreciated, thank you!

 

[armoured]

- My mother's PR status is about to expire this summer due to the 730 days rule
- She has been living outside of Canada with my father, and has been unable to come back due to Covid

You do not provide the critical information here - when did she first land, when does PR card expire, and how many days in total in Canada so far (or how many days out). Also, when was she last in Canada.

PR status does not 'expire', so assume you are referring to the PR card.

If she is only somewhat out of compliance with the RO status, her chances may be decent of requesting H&C etc. If she has spent essentially no time in Canada since becoming a PR - less so.

 

[HCsquared]

She has been PR for more than 20 years, and hasn't broken any rules before. The reason she wasn't in Canada is because she was spending time with my father, who lost his PR status, and is not a PR anymore.

Her last time in Canada was about 3-4 years ago, which she stayed for 1 year. Then she went back to be with my father for 3 years. So she only spent about 1 year in Canada over the past 4 years, and will need to be back this summer to stay for another year.

She could have returned before Covid, but our plan was for her to come back in 2020-2021. We didn't know a year long pandemic would take place.

 

[armoured]

Her last time in Canada was about 3-4 years ago, which she stayed for 1 year. Then she went back to be with my father for 3 years. So she only spent about 1 year in Canada over the past 4 years, and will need to be back this summer to stay for another year.

Does she have a valid PR card?

And the relevant Calc is how many days she has been in Canada in the last five years.

 

[HCsquared]

Does she have a valid PR card?

And the relevant Calc is how many days she has been in Canada in the last five years.

Yes she does have a valid PR card. She has only been in Canada for 1 year over the past 4 years, so she will need to come back to fulfill the 730 days rule.

 

[armoured]

Yes she does have a valid PR card. She has only been in Canada for 1 year over the past 4 years, so she will need to come back to fulfill the 730 days rule.

Again, please provide the number of days in last five years.

 

[Naheulbeuck]

Yes she does have a valid PR card. She has only been in Canada for 1 year over the past 4 years, so she will need to come back to fulfill the 730 days rule.

Armoured is right to push for the exact dates as she may already be in breach of her RO, regardless of dates on card as per your statement above, in absolute, she has been outside of Canada for 3 years out of 5 which would lead to believe she cannot meet her RO. Now with Covid and if she barely is in breach, with a valid PR card, she has a good chance but that will tell us much about the urgency for her to travel.

Furthermore, she will most likely need to spend 2 years straight in Canada to avoid being in breach of her RO, not one year, but again, as Armoured asked, it really depends on the dates when she was in Canada in the past 5 years.

 

[armoured]

Yes she does have a valid PR card. She has only been in Canada for 1 year over the past 4 years, so she will need to come back to fulfill the 730 days rule.

Look, I've said you're not being specific enough, but you seem to want to know what will happen, and no-one can tell you.

There is an old statistics joke about "what are the chances of a meteor hitting the earth tomorrow?". And the person responds, 50-50. "Really - fifty-fifty?"

"Yes, it either happens, or it doesn't. Fifty-fifty."

So: assuming your mother has a PR card that is still valid and returns before it expires: she either gets reported at the border for non-compliance - or she doesn't. She will be admitted to Canada and can remain in Canada while she has a chance to appeal.

She either appeals, or she doesn't.

The appeal proceeds: she either wins on appeal, or she doesn't.

We can say she has some reasons for not being in compliance - because maybe she could have returned to Canada if covid wasn't happening and she was concerned about health etc. Either the CBSA officer agrees with that - or doesn't. Same on appeal.

She has some reasons to say she has ties to Canada - you, family, etc. IRCC also has reasons to say her residential ties to Canada are weak - she preferred to live with her husband instead of in Canada, and he lost his PR, presumably also due to non-compliance with RO.

The CBSA officer,or on appeal, they either think those arguments are good - or they don't.

Also, she's been a PR for 20 years, and never became a citizen. Presumably that means a lot of the time was out of Canada.

She'll have to decide on the balance of probabilities and risk and inconvenience (if she's admitted to Canada, she'll have to stay for several years to get back in compliance, with travel not being a good idea) about whether she wants to attempt to keep PR status or not. Trying to keep it may not be easy and may not be successful. If she doesn't really plan to live in Canada more-or-less permanently, perhaps it's not worth it.

No-one can likely give any more certainty than my (jokingly stated) "fifty-fifty"; she's either successful at it, or she isn't.

Everyone here may have different opinions on how good her chances are, but those are just opinions; really it can only be up to her to decide whether to try or not.

 

[HCsquared]

Thanks for all the help by the way, we really appreciate it. I didn't have the exact dates yet so I didn't post it, sorry about that. We dug through the records and here are the exact dates:

2015 Apr 13 to 2016 Nov 26 (593 days): Inside Canada
2016 Nov 26 to 2017 May 25 (180 days): Outside Canada
2017 May 25 to 2018 Aug 29 (461 days): Inside Canada
2018 Aug 29 until today (987 days): Outside Canada

Her PR Card Expiry Date: Jan 11 2023

Yes my father lost his PR status because he couldn't meet the 730 rule due to work related reasons. She has been traveling back and forth over the past years, but she does plan to become a Citizen once she comes back to Canada.

Looks like ultimately it really depends on chance. We'll have to decide what to do here. Also tried contacting IRCC multiple times but it's impossible to reach them.

 

[Naheulbeuck]

The dates are very helpful thank you. For your RO, you need to only look at the past 5 years: from 5/13/2016 to 5/12/2021 to determine today if she is in compliance.
Unfortunately that means:
2016 May 13 to 2016 Nov 26 (198 days): Inside Canada
2016 Nov 26 to 2017 May 25 (180 days): Outside Canada
2017 May 25 to 2018 Aug 29 (461 days): Inside Canada
2018 Aug 29 until today (987 days): Outside Canada

Based on this, she is quite a bit in breach of her RO, by 3 months approximately. Furthermore, because some of her days are 5 years ago and she is now outside of Canada, each day that passes means she loses one day in compliance (tomorrow, she loses May 13, 2016 (inside) and adds May 13, 2021 (outside)).

At this point, it will depend on many things, as mentioned Covid is a factor that will likely be considered and if her PR card is still valid, I would try to get her in Canada as soon as possible, each day her situation gets a little worse and I think with a valid PR card, missing approximately 3 months and covid you have a decent chance (fifty fifty like Armoured said above but a bit better than if you wait) of either getting waived through or being able to explain a bit (focusing on her health and covid) and get a warning instead of a full on report.

I think the PRTD would be harder to get but that is just a slightly educated guess and I am no lawyer so just take it as a guess.

As mentioned though, entering will be the first part only, after that she would have to stay 2 full years, as by the time she accumulates a year, the days in 2017 will start to no longer be counted, therefore requiring her to stay for 2 full years to remain in compliance (after a year though, she would be in compliance and could sponsor her husband so that both your parents could move here more permanently).

You have options, I'd summarize them as:

She stays outside and gives up on PR, you will be able to sponsor them only if you get selected in the lottery system (low probability so it could never happen).
She quickly decides to come back and hope not to be reported, stay and sponsor her husband, staying 2 years but after that they would both have PR and could live in Canada (that would give your father time to get things settle too as the RO is lenient and the process would take some time so he would have a few years before having to move).
You apply for PRTD and hope to get it, similar to above but probably more likely to not get the PRTD, however no stress of being reported, if you get PRTD you know it is safe to travel, less stress.
She gets reported or refused PRTD, she loses PR and you are in a similar situation as the first one.

 

[armoured]

Personal opinion only: the three months out of compliance is much less than I thought from the original summary.

Given covid and travel issues and real health concerns for her age group, I would personally guess - repeat guess - that the chances are better than even of leniency if she returns reasonably soon. (And I have in mind say this summer or fall, but the sooner the better, obviously.)

So I don't think it's at all unrealistic for her to chance it by just returning as soon as feasible and flights available (eg if from India where no travel now).

And honestly if she were reported at border, the argument that government of Canada was recommending not travelling for much of this period WILL be listened to on appeal. Not a guarantee but a good argument.

I might have a different opinion (ie guess) if she were substantially out of compliance before covid. For example.

(note I'm relying on the calcs by naheulbuck above because I'm lazy)

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks for all the help by the way, we really appreciate it. I didn't have the exact dates yet so I didn't post it, sorry about that. We dug through the records and here are the exact dates:

2015 Apr 13 to 2016 Nov 26 (593 days): Inside Canada
2016 Nov 26 to 2017 May 25 (180 days): Outside Canada
2017 May 25 to 2018 Aug 29 (461 days): Inside Canada
2018 Aug 29 until today (987 days): Outside Canada

Her PR Card Expiry Date: Jan 11 2023

Yes my father lost his PR status because he couldn't meet the 730 rule due to work related reasons. She has been traveling back and forth over the past years, but she does plan to become a Citizen once she comes back to Canada.

Looks like ultimately it really depends on chance. We'll have to decide what to do here. Also tried contacting IRCC multiple times but it's impossible to reach them.

I agree in general with @armoured and with most of what has been posted by @Naheulbeuck

. . . except the part about needing to stay two straight years to get back into compliance . . . if she arrives relatively soon, by sometime in August (rough estimate . . . soon enough to be in Canada at least 270 days before May 25, 2022) she could be in compliance in less than a year . . . but will have to continue to stay for nearly two years in order to remain in compliance (as of May 25, 2022 her RO calculation will remain static, not change, so long as she stays in Canada).

This depends on NOT being reported for a breach of the RO when she does return. Since she has been outside Canada more than 1095 days in the last five years, since May 12, 2016, she is now in breach of the RO, so is at risk for being issued the 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility due to failing to comply with the RO when she arrives at a Port-of-Entry into Canada. Regarding this, my guess concurs with @armoured

This mostly means she would not have to wait a full two years (until summer 2023, whatever is the 2nd anniversary of her return to Canada this year) to apply for a new PR card to replace the one that will expire in January 2023, but should be able to proceed with that by fall 2022. . . . And it affects when she could sponsor her spouse, if that is being considered; which she could do as soon as her days in Canada within the last five years surpass 730.


Further Observations, For Clarification and Emphasis:

Expiration date on the PR card is mostly NOT relevant . . . except, with a valid PR card she can board a flight to Canada, and will be allowed entry into Canada (whether reported for breach of RO or not). Returning to Canada with a valid PR card means she can avoid applying for a PR Travel Document, which probably improves her odds of keeping PR status despite being in breach of the RO. Returning to Canada sooner, with a card that is valid for longer into the future, may also improve the odds she will not be subject to a formal Residency Obligation examination at the Port-of-Entry. But, to be clear, the date on the PR card is NOT relevant for purposes of calculating RO compliance.

It is the number of days IN Canada within the last five years as of the day she arrives here that matters most. @Naheulbeuck made this point but it warrants repeating and emphasizing. If she arrives June 3, 2021, the calculation of RO compliance will be based on the number of days she has been present IN Canada between June 3, 2016 and June 2, 2021.

As of today, any days in Canada before May 12, 2016 do not count toward meeting the RO.

As of June 3, 2021, any days in Canada prior to June 3, 2016 do not count.

And so on.

It is near impossible to forecast how things will actually go. We could speculate about the probabilities. Ten percent chance this; ninety percent chance that. But apart from how speculative any such odds-making would be, how it goes depends on the individual case . . . alluding to something @armoured referred to, for example, a lifetime smoker in his 50s may have such-and-such odds of having lung cancer, but when he goes to the doctor for testing, those odds do not matter, by then he either has 100 percent odds of having cancer or is (for now) cancer free . . . the tests will either reveal he has cancer or he does not.

In concurrence with observation above, my sense is that if she returns to Canada soon the chances should be decent-to-good it goes very good or at least good (not even examined as to RO compliance, or casually asked about RO compliance and at worst cautioned), and at least quite good even if examined formally she is either given H&C relief at the PoE or, as long as she stays in Canada, is allowed to keep PR status after an appeal. Covid has a role in this. But, obviously, she was outside Canada for a long period of time before Covid, so Covid does not offer a full explanation for failing to settle permanently in Canada. But again, the odds do not illuminate much.

The longer she remains abroad, the bigger the risk things will not go well.

 

[HCsquared]

Wow, the information provided here is extremely detailed, helpful, and much better than even asking IRCC directly. I can't stress how much we appreciate it.

We discussed it among our family and have decided for her travel back to Canada once Covid dies down a little, maybe around August this year after most people are vaccinated. Right now Toronto is still under lockdown and cases are not going down, so we don't feel it's worth the risk coming back now. Even if she loses her PR, it's better than catching Covid by a slim chance.

On behalf of my mother and our family, thank you all again for your help!

 

[cic86]

I'm seeing more and more cases of PRs not meeting the RO because of Covid. Covid should be a separate checkbox in the PR renewal form by now. This wasn't like some passing disease for 2 or 3 months, it's been here since 2020 and nobody can predict how long it's going to stay so what is stopping IRCC from changing the RO due to Covid? A once in a 100 year event is the definition of an exceptional event, what more "exceptional" reasons are required?

And this idea that you must provide a legit reason as to why you didn't meet the RO in Canada before Covid hit is hilarious. Do people know the future?
How you meet the 730 days it totally upto the invididual. They shouldn't be asked why you didnt meet it in your first 2 years or last 2 years. If they want justifications why the person didnt meet the RO in the first 730 days of landing then they may as well scrap the part of the RO that says 730 non consecutive days.

Would it be fair to IRCC for them to justify why they didn't factor in Covid when they made the RO? Obviously not because they can't predict the future. So similiarly its not fair for the PR holder to justify why they can't meet the RO before Covid hit because they can't predict the future either. Simples.

More and more people are going to find it hard to meet the RO now because of multiple direct and indirect reasons due to Covid. An example of an indirect reason would be jobs. I hope they will review the RO in light of the pandemic.

 

[armoured]

I'm seeing more and more cases of PRs not meeting the RO because of Covid.

Sure - but what we're NOT seeing - as far as I can tell - is a significant uptick in reports at border / PRTD denials / PR status revocations / appeals cases.

It's hard to attribute cause or understand what's going on. But it is a potential indicator that in practice there may be quite a bit of leniency practiced by IRCC/CBSA.

Eventually if it turns out that they are not being lenient for covid-related non-compliance, we will see this in the appeals reports - because individuals will surely appeal and make the case that they couldn't return due to covid.

But right now, you are arguing with phantoms.

And this idea that you must provide a legit reason as to why you didn't meet the RO in Canada before Covid hit is hilarious. Do people know the future?
How you meet the 730 days it totally upto the invididual. They shouldn't be asked why you didnt meet it in your first 2 years or last 2 years. If they want justifications why the person didnt meet the RO in the first 730 days of landing then they may as well scrap the part of the RO that says 730 non consecutive days.

I don't understand your point here. I see no indication that in practice CBSA/IRCC are asking why people did not meet the RO in such-and-such a period of time, that is, why they did not 'get the 730 days' in two years.

Posters here have noted a different point distinct from what you stated above: that for those who were already out of compliance (and significantly so) before covid started, it will be harder to make the case that their non-compliance was due to covid.

These two statements (why did you not get the 730 days before vs why were you out of Canada 1095 days prior to covid) may seem like mirrors of each other, but I emphasize: they are distinct and different, even if sometimes people confuse and refer to them colloquially as if they are the same. There's no requirement to (as you seem to state) get the 730 days in your first two years; it is two-in-five. Mathematically that means, of course, that being out of Canada 1095 days in your first five years (whether in the first three or in total) means you are non-compliant.

So similiarly its not fair for the PR holder to justify why they can't meet the RO before Covid hit because they can't predict the future either. Simples.

Simple but wrong. If someone was not compliant before covid (again, distinct from why they 'did they not meet the RO ie get to 730 days before covid), it is perfectly reasonable to request/require an explanation.

That can be easily considered by taking an extreme hypothetical: someone spent only one day in Canada before covid, and their PR card expired March 20, 2020. That person can argue that they 'could have' travelled to Canada on March 19 but flights were cancelled. Entirely reasonable (it seems to me) to deny PRTD request without a very good set of reasons for that non-compliance, all before covid.

In other words, if the applicant's reason (only reason in explanation) for being non-compliant is "because covid started March 18", that's clearly false - the individual was non-compliant well before covid started. And if that individual had arrived on March 17, 2020, likelihood of being reported would have been quite high (failing some other exceptional circumstances/explanation).

(Leaving aside for now that in appeal, it's not impossible that H&C might have been considered in order not to force the individual to travel in arguably dangerous circumstances)

More and more people are going to find it hard to meet the RO now because of multiple direct and indirect reasons due to Covid. An example of an indirect reason would be jobs. I hope they will review the RO in light of the pandemic.

Sure. And all of those individuals can make the case that they couldn't be compliant because of covid. Some cases will be more credible than others - and those who were significantly out of compliance before covid will have less chance of success. This does not require the RO to be revised at all.*

The crux will be those who are in the in-between situation and we\ll have to see how those are handled. I personally expect we will see some cases two or three or more years down the road (ie 'after covid') arguing that they couldn't return by say end-2022, and at some point IRCC will start having to be more strict and (more or less formally, probably not publicly) stop any covid-leniency because such covid leniency can't be forever.

*We're talking here about the ability to enter Canada to reside; I could imagine some additional leniency/policy about eg PR cards. But separate topic and too early to speculate.