People giving up PR status due to eTAs

[James Russo]

My sister in law saw a PR being denied entry due to not having her PR card with her at immigration check. This person ended up having to go back. This makes sense to me. This is to prevent people with expired PR status from getting in to reestablish their PR status.

This is absolutely fake because nobody can board a flight without PR card. If hypothetically the person land in Canada without a PR card, CBSA can find out if it's a Canadian Permanent Resident easily and let them into the Country.

 

[HamiltonApplicant]

The fact is, the 9/11 hijackers had all been vetted by the U.S. Government. They all had valid visas and, therefore, would have been approved to board their flights under ESTA. Americans are NOT safer because of ESTA and TSA -- it's all security theatre to make Americans "feel" safe. I, for one, think all this "security" has been a complete overreaction to cover-up a complete failure to "respond" to the underlying reasons that gave rise to the current criminal threats that are so cavalierly described as "terrorism".

The greatest terrorist acts in history have overwhelmingly been committed by states, not private actors (using the definition of terrorism employed by the FBI, CIA and U.S. Dept. of State). Eliminating the ongoing terrorism perpetrated by states would largely undermine the rationale private actors have for committing acts cavalierly labelled "terrorist" by the very terrorism-committing-states guilty of real terrorism.

Problem is the completer failure even to "acknowledge" the underlying reasons.

 

[Natan]

Problem is the completer failure even to "acknowledge" the underlying reasons.

Politicians win more votes when they proclaim "they hate us for our freedoms", or some such nonsense, appealing to the electorate's sense of "nationalism", "patriotism" or other emotionalized "...ism". Such appeals have historically covered up all manner of lies and deception.

 

[dpenabill]

Last year's implementation of the rule requiring Canadian citizens to use a Canadian passport to board a flight to Canada generally applies only to those dual citizens who are naturalized Canadian citizens, not those whose Canadian citizenship was acquired by being born in Canada.

Turns out (as perhaps could have been easily predicted) that those who are Canadian citizens by birth in Canada are not IRCC clients identified as citizens in GCMS. So those who have dual citizenship in a visa-exempt country can apply for and be issued eTA for the visa-exempt passport, since the eTA application process relies on GCMS for identifying Canadian PRs and Canadian citizens, who are not eligible for eTA (even if they also carry a visa-exempt passport).

No indication if or when IRCC might fix this obvious loophole. Seems discriminatory on its face to me. But the number of people affected probably is not large, given that the vast majority of Canadian dual citizens are (like many of us, me included) naturalized Canadian citizens.

(This shows up in IRCC explanations governing various situations, but I dropped the link; for anyone interested, it should be easy to find, following links in PDIs about eTA.)

 

[Bs65]

Last year's implementation of the rule requiring Canadian citizens to use a Canadian passport to board a flight to Canada generally applies only to those dual citizens who are naturalized Canadian citizens, not those whose Canadian citizenship was acquired by being born in Canada.

Turns out (as perhaps could have been easily predicted) that those who are Canadian citizens by birth in Canada are not IRCC clients identified as citizens in GCMS. So those who have dual citizenship in a visa-exempt country can apply for and be issued eTA for the visa-exempt passport, since the eTA application process relies on GCMS for identifying Canadian PRs and Canadian citizens, who are not eligible for eTA (even if they also carry a visa-exempt passport).

No indication if or when IRCC might fix this obvious loophole. Seems discriminatory on its face to me. But the number of people affected probably is not large, given that the vast majority of Canadian dual citizens are (like many of us, me included) naturalized Canadian citizens.

(This shows up in IRCC explanations governing various situations, but I dropped the link; for anyone interested, it should be easy to find, following links in PDIs about eTA.)

Just for clarification not sure I understand the above given in the ETA application there is a specific question on any additional nationalities the applicant may hold. So are you saying that even if someone who holds a visa exempt passport puts Canada in answer to this question as they were born in Canada but are somehow dual citizens they will still get an ETA even when the application reaches the ETA review/issue stage.

 

[dpenabill]

Just for clarification not sure I understand the above given in the ETA application there is a specific question on any additional nationalities the applicant may hold. So are you saying that even if someone who holds a visa exempt passport puts Canada in answer to this question as they were born in Canada but are somehow dual citizens they will still get an ETA even when the application reaches the ETA review/issue stage.

While the PDIs state (in multiple locations) that a "Canadian citizen" is not eligible for an eTA, almost all eTA applications are processed automatically, no human processing agent sees let alone examines the eTA application unless it drops out of the automated process.

Here (with some emphasis added) is what it says about Canadian citizens applying for eTA under procedures in one of the PDIs:

"In some cases, applications can drop out of the automated process because the individual appears to be a citizen of Canada. The system will catch such cases only if the individual is a naturalized citizen; individuals who are Canadian citizens by birth will not have a record of their citizenship in GCMS and will therefore not be identifiable by the system."

I am not familiar with the particulars of the application. If the prospective traveler must disclose additional nationalities, and discloses "Canada," I do not know how the system responds. If the prospective traveler discloses Canada as an additional nationality, and the system thus drops the eTA application from the automated process, it is manually processed. If that happens, the prospective traveler should be informed a Canadian citizen is not eligible for eTA, that their eTA application has been withdrawn, and the individual must use their Canadian travel document to enter Canada.

But the language in the PDI suggests this will not happen unless the eTA applicant is a naturalized citizen with a record in GCMS, and thus identified in the system as such. Indeed, the PDI procedure further instructs the officer to consider, based on "case history" (which is accessible only in the GCMS) if the individual has been granted Canadian citizenship, or is appearing as a citizen in the system but that citizenship has been revoked (there is no process for revoking citizenship obtained by birth). It virtually ignores or does not address a scenario in which the eTA applicant appears to be a citizen by birth, other than to note that such citizens are not identifiable as Canadian citizens in the system.

So I do not know the answer to your question. But it is apparent the system is not designed to enforce the Travel Document rules as strictly or diligently for citizens by birth as it is for naturalized citizens. Is this a bug or a feature? as the software guys might phrase it.

Of course, for decades the travel document requirements were unequally enforced against PRs who were not from a visa-exempt country compared to those PRs carrying a visa-exempt passport. So such disparities are not unusual.

 

[links18]

Last year's implementation of the rule requiring Canadian citizens to use a Canadian passport to board a flight to Canada generally applies only to those dual citizens who are naturalized Canadian citizens, not those whose Canadian citizenship was acquired by being born in Canada.

Turns out (as perhaps could have been easily predicted) that those who are Canadian citizens by birth in Canada are not IRCC clients identified as citizens in GCMS. So those who have dual citizenship in a visa-exempt country can apply for and be issued eTA for the visa-exempt passport, since the eTA application process relies on GCMS for identifying Canadian PRs and Canadian citizens, who are not eligible for eTA (even if they also carry a visa-exempt passport).

No indication if or when IRCC might fix this obvious loophole. Seems discriminatory on its face to me. But the number of people affected probably is not large, given that the vast majority of Canadian dual citizens are (like many of us, me included) naturalized Canadian citizens.

(This shows up in IRCC explanations governing various situations, but I dropped the link; for anyone interested, it should be easy to find, following links in PDIs about eTA.)

Why would IRCC continue to consider someone who has become a citizen a "client." In what sense is this the case or not?

 

[nyguy2]

Why would IRCC continue to consider someone who has become a citizen a "client." In what sense is this the case?

The unique client identifier is just basically a unique number assigned to one individual in relationship to the applications they make with IRCC. I have a client ID on my work permit and a client ID for my application now for a citizenship certificate (by descent). Even if an application gets approved, they're going to retain that client ID for records on why citizenship was granted, to track assigned certificates or any other interactions I have with them, etc.

New York has a client ID on their drivers licenses too. Even if you move within NYS, get a new license, or leave the state for years and then come back (transferring an out of state license for a New York Drivers License) - your NYS DMV client ID will be exactly the same and remains in the Department of Motor Vehicles computer system.

 

[links18]

The unique client identifier is just basically a unique number assigned to one individual in relationship to the applications they make with IRCC. I have a client ID on my work permit and a client ID for my application now for a citizenship certificate (by descent). Even if an application gets approved, they're going to retain that client ID for records on why citizenship was granted, to track assigned certificates or any other interactions I have with them, etc.

New York has a client ID on their drivers licenses too. Even if you move within NYS, get a new license, or leave the state for years and then come back (transferring an out of state license for a New York Drivers License) - your NYS DMV client ID will be exactly the same and remains in the Department of Motor Vehicles computer system.

But a natural born Canadian has no such ID number or do they get one when applying for a passport?

 

[Natan]

But a natural born Canadian has no such ID number or do they get one when applying for a passport?

Or when applying for a Certificate of Citizenship?

 

[nyguy2]

But a natural born Canadian has no such ID number or do they get one when applying for a passport?

Or when applying for a Certificate of Citizenship?

You'd definitely get a client identifier as part of an application for a Citizenship Certificate if you didn't have one already. I already had a client ID from my work permit, and the UCI is the exact same for my received application for proof of citizenship (a citizenship certificate). It's possible to apply for a citizenship certificate as a natural born Canadian, but most things don't require it if you have a provincially issued birth certificate.

For a passport application? No idea if you get a UCI, to be honest. I don't see a spot to put one on the form. If you send in a Citizenship Certificate for the passport, then you already have a client ID from that. If you send in a birth certificate, I don't know if they tie the record of that to a newly created client ID or not.

 

[screech339]

Canadian Born citizen can get UCI as well. But only if they get involved with CIC such as sponsoring their parents or spouses, for example.

 

[Natan]

Canadian Born citizen can get UCI as well. But only if they get involved with CIC such as sponsoring their parents or spouses, for example.

Wouldn't sponsoring someone only generate a ClientID for the sponsored person?

 

[screech339]

Wouldn't sponsoring someone only generate a ClientID for the sponsored person?

Nope. I ended up getting an UCI assigned to me as well when I received an AOR letter from CIC when I submitted papers to sponsor my spouse for PR sponsorship. I had one and my spouse has another.

 

[uncomfortable]

One very simple question - why not allowing PR individuals from visa-exempt countries to apply for an eTA-like permit in order to let them fly into Canada?
Franlkly, I would pay important sums of money to be able to check in online and not have to go through the hassle I'm going through now when flying back into Canada. I have no problem with CIC wanting to increase the check for those who are trying to abuse the system, but just don't do it at the expense of those who are playing by the rule. The fact that my parents, who live in a different country and have no status in Canada, can check in online when flying to Canada while a PR like me can't really drives me insane.