Outland Application - Spouse from USA - Risks of getting Visitor Record?

[osgoz99]

Hey All,

Just need some clarification here with regard to the following scenario:

In the middle of an Outland application with wife originally from USA. The couple are living here in Canada while they wait for second stage approval but wife travels back and forth every couple of months and so she does not stay in Canada for more than 6 months at one time. Her official address is still in the USA but she informs customs that she is staying with her husband in Canada while she waits approval for her application.

Should she ask for a visitor record? I do not really understand the point of a visitor record. Apparently, the IO has discretion and can issue one for a period of time that he/she feels necessary?

1) Should she ask for a visitor record? or continue going in and out without one?
2) If she gets one and it expires before application is approved, what happens then? US citizens do not need visas for entry in any case.
3) Will visitor record help to establish residence in Canada for health coverage? OHIP apparently does not care about visitor records and still say this is only a temporary residence.
4) What is the point of a visitor record and why do people here recommend not asking for one?

I'm guessing that it probably helps for people coming from countries that require visas to enter Canada and so that it will prevent them from being denied access back into Canada if they travel during application process? Is this correct?

Some clarification would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

 

[canuck_in_uk]

1) Should she ask for a visitor record? or continue going in and out without one?
2) If she gets one and it expires before application is approved, what happens then? US citizens do not need visas for entry in any case.
3) Will visitor record help to establish residence in Canada for health coverage? OHIP apparently does not care about visitor records and still say this is only a temporary residence.
4) What is the point of a visitor record and why do people here recommend not asking for one?

I'm guessing that it probably helps for people coming from countries that require visas to enter Canada and so that it will prevent them from being denied access back into Canada if they travel during application process? Is this correct?

Hi

1. There is no point in asking for a visitor record, as it is only valid if she stays in Canada. When she leaves, the VR is essentially void and she is treated as a new visitor upon each entry.

2. As above, her visitor status resets every time she enters Canada anyways.

3. No.

4. A visitor record is good for those entering and STAYING in Canada for a prolonged period of time. It is not suitable for someone who is re-entering Canada every few months.


A visitor record has nothing to do with re-entering Canada. As I said, it's basically void once a person leaves Canada. The point of a VR is to allow someone to remain in Canada for a longer period of time.

 

[rhcohen2014]

Hey All,

Just need some clarification here with regard to the following scenario:

In the middle of an Outland application with wife originally from USA. The couple are living here in Canada while they wait for second stage approval but wife travels back and forth every couple of months and so she does not stay in Canada for more than 6 months at one time. Her official address is still in the USA but she informs customs that she is staying with her husband in Canada while she waits approval for her application.

Should she ask for a visitor record? I do not really understand the point of a visitor record. Apparently, the IO has discretion and can issue one for a period of time that he/she feels necessary?

1) Should she ask for a visitor record? or continue going in and out without one?
2) If she gets one and it expires before application is approved, what happens then? US citizens do not need visas for entry in any case.
3) Will visitor record help to establish residence in Canada for health coverage? OHIP apparently does not care about visitor records and still say this is only a temporary residence.
4) What is the point of a visitor record and why do people here recommend not asking for one?

I'm guessing that it probably helps for people coming from countries that require visas to enter Canada and so that it will prevent them from being denied access back into Canada if they travel during application process? Is this correct?

Some clarification would really be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

1. no, asking for a visitor's record is asking to be red flagged and put into the CBSA system. there is nothing wrong with what she is doing. they are being lenient because of her PR application and the fact she maintains residence in the US. don't go asking to be on their radar, there is no need.
2. if she gets a visitor's record issued by CBSA, then she will need to apply to extend her stay as a visitor just like everyone who enters canada as a visitor and wants to stay longer than admitted for.
3.No. in ontario, she won't be eligible until 3 months after moving to ontario. she can sign up as soon as she lands, it just won't go into effect for 90 days. visitors are not eligible for OHIP.
4. the point of a visitor's record in my experience is for CBSA to track your stay in canada. They use visitors records for those they suspect will overstay, and some visitor records have a stipulation that you have to actually check out with immigration before leaving. i don't understand why anyone would ask to be issued one when they are entitled to enter freely without being tracked.

 

[osgoz99]

Interesting. And suppose she wishes to stay in Canada with her husband for more than 6 months in one shot. Suppose she will stay for 8 months without returning to the US. Would she then require a visitor record?

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Interesting. And suppose she wishes to stay in Canada with her husband for more than 6 months in one shot. Suppose she will stay for 8 months without returning to the US. Would she then require a visitor record?

She can apply to extend her stay.

 

[BeShoo]

The main purpose of a visitor record is to keep track of the visitor so that they can make sure that she leaves before the time is up. If they are afraid of her overstaying, they will issue one to make sure that she does not overstay.

U.S. citizens are routinely allowed to visit for up to 6 months, but this is understood to be a total of no more than six months (or ~180 days) out of every 12 months. You can't just leave for a day or a month and then return for another six months. They are now starting to keep track of how many days you've spent visiting because the Canadian and U.S. border people now have an agreement to exchange information, so they have a way now to track when you leave the country and not just when you enter.

With a PR application in process, extensions to VRs for 12 months are commonly given. The officer at the border will normally only issue a VR for six months or even less, but will give instructions on how to ask for an extension.

Although people on this board often state that a VR is void once you leave the country, that doesn't seem to be the way CBSA treats them at all. For various reasons, my partner has had five extensions now and we've just applied for a sixth one. Every year we've gone to the U.S. at least once (usually for a weekend) and come back in each time with very few questions. They look at the VR and ask where we live. We tell them we both live in Gatineau, and after a few other routine questions about anything we are bringing back with us they wave us through. No-one at the border has ever suggested to us that the VR is now invalid after a trip to the U.S. During the VR that lasted from one year ago until today, we actually visited the U.S. four times, once for a week, once for a weekend, and a couple of quick shopping trips that only lasted about an hour.

 

[rhcohen2014]

U.S. citizens are routinely allowed to visit for up to 6 months, but this is understood to be a total of no more than six months (or ~180 days) out of every 12 months. You can't just leave for a day or a month and then return for another six months.

that's not necessarily how it works. just ask any CBSA agent this question, and you will get different answers. i never received the same answer twice when asking. there is no rule that actually states whether it's calendar year or whether it's per visit. there ARE people who are there for 6 months, leave for short time and re-enter for 6 months. how long a person gains entry for is solely up to the CBSA agent. Generally, US applicants with proof of ties to the us and a pr application submitted get a lenient pass on the "6 month rule". just because 1 person can't do this, doesn't mean it can't/won't happen for another. it ALL depends on CBSA's interpretation of that specific person's intentions.

They are now starting to keep track of how many days you've spent visiting because the Canadian and U.S. border people now have an agreement to exchange information, so they have a way now to track when you leave the country and not just when you enter.

i HIGHLY doubt CBSA ACTUALLY tracks how many days someone is in canada. I was "red flagged" for 1.5 years before getting pr and was required to go to secondary at every entry. NEVER did they pull out the exact number of days i stayed in canada on my trips. if they had a concern about my length of visit, they would inquire. they never said to me " oh well we see you stayed x number of days on your last visit, that means you only are allowed x more days." That's not how it works. ACtually, one time I asked about it, the officer looked at me like i had 9 heads. As said above, the lenght of time allowed in depends on the officer. People can certainly be IN canada as visitor for more than 6 mo. each calendar year without issue. While it's possible for them to count days, they DONT actually do that unless of course the officer has some concern as to why the person is entering. AGain, with a PR application submitted, the "threshold" is lower than just normal visitors. Yes, the 2 countries over share information, they just aren't counting the number of days people are in each country, marking them in the system, and using that information to decide people's future entry.

Interesting. And suppose she wishes to stay in Canada with her husband for more than 6 months in one shot. Suppose she will stay for 8 months without returning to the US. Would she then require a visitor record?

yes, if she wants to stay longer than originally admitted for, then she will need to apply to extend her stay as a visitor online (or by mail).

 

[osgoz99]

Sorry Beshoo and Rhcohen, I'm just a little confused now. Is there any reason then for a US citizen to ask for a visitor record if their stay will be less than 6 months in one shot (but will return to Canada after only a few days in the US and restart their 6 months)? if they intend to stay in Canada longer than 6 months at a time?

 

[bartjones]

Although people on this board often state that a VR is void once you leave the country, that doesn't seem to be the way CBSA treats them at all. For various reasons, my partner has had five extensions now and we've just applied for a sixth one. Every year we've gone to the U.S. at least once (usually for a weekend) and come back in each time with very few questions. They look at the VR and ask where we live. We tell them we both live in Gatineau, and after a few other routine questions about anything we are bringing back with us they wave us through. No-one at the border has ever suggested to us that the VR is now invalid after a trip to the U.S. During the VR that lasted from one year ago until today, we actually visited the U.S. four times, once for a week, once for a weekend, and a couple of quick shopping trips that only lasted about an hour.

That's because a VR is not invalidated if the only country you have been to is the United States or St. Pierre and Miquelon [see IRPA Regulations, s. 109(3)(f)(ii)]

 

[rhcohen2014]

Sorry Beshoo and Rhcohen, I'm just a little confused now. Is there any reason then for a US citizen to ask for a visitor record if their stay will be less than 6 months in one shot (but will return to Canada after only a few days in the US and restart their 6 months)? if they intend to stay in Canada longer than 6 months at a time?

no, in my opinion there is no reason for a US citizen to ask for visitor's record. US citizens can enter with just their passport. The only reason a US citizen should ever have a visitor's record is because it was specifically issud to them by CBSA, or it's their approved extension as a visitor. if a person was admitted for 6 months, and wishes to stay longer, they have to apply to extend their status as a visitor.

obvioulsy beshoo and i have different understandings of it. my understanding is based on my experience entering canada multipl times since 2012 as well as a consistent account from other reports on this forum.

 

[bartjones]

no, in my opinion there is no reason for a US citizen to ask for visitor's record. US citizens can enter with just their passport. The only reason a US citizen should ever have a visitor's record is because it was specifically issud to them by CBSA, or it's their approved extension as a visitor. if a person was admitted for 6 months, and wishes to stay longer, they have to apply to extend their status as a visitor.

obvioulsy beshoo and i have different understandings of it. my understanding is based on my experience entering canada multipl times since 2012 as well as a consistent account from other reports on this forum.

That was my experience with my wife as well. CBSA seems reluctant to issue them and in our case it led to them asking a bunch of questions about whether she was here to 'visit' or 'live'. It was tense few minutes for us.

Your better option is to just enter Canada without asking for a visitors record and, once admitted, apply for an extension online or by mail through Vegreville. If you have a PR app in process you should have no problem getting a 12 month extension (which is, in fact, a visitors record).

Also, if you have 3 months of residency and your outland application has passed the eligibility assessment stage, you may be eligible for OHIP, even though you only have visitor status. You can read about that here http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/important-ohip-eligibility-info-for-all-pr-applicants-residing-in-ontario-t56695.0.html

 

[blueangel371115]

I was issued one by their encouragement, albeit forceful, even though I leave each month. Once they realized mine was actually sent and upon my request, they gave me a year. So it depends on the border crossing. Honestly.

 

[BeShoo]

Sorry Beshoo and Rhcohen, I'm just a little confused now. Is there any reason then for a US citizen to ask for a visitor record if their stay will be less than 6 months in one shot (but will return to Canada after only a few days in the US and restart their 6 months)? if they intend to stay in Canada longer than 6 months at a time?

A visitor record (at least initially) is actually a restriction on the duration of your visit to Canada, so it not something you would normally ask for. To ask for one, you might be saying, in effect, "I may decide to become an illegal immigrant, so could you please give me a piece of paper that kicks me out after 3 months?" The immigration may look at you with suspicion and wonder why you are saying something like this. It's best to just honestly tell them what you are intending to do (keeping in mind that you intend to visit, not to move to Canada before you have PR) and they will decide if a VR is what you need.

I have some comments in response to the post by rhcohen, but I don't have time to look up the evidence for what I was saying and to write a reply at the moment.

 

[BeShoo]

that's not necessarily how it works. just ask any CBSA agent this question, and you will get different answers. i never received the same answer twice when asking. there is no rule that actually states whether it's calendar year or whether it's per visit.

It's true that there is no written rule, but there is still a general principal followed by most countries that whichever country you spend the most time is is deemed to be your country of residence. This is generally determined on a yearly or multi-year basis. It's also generally true that the official at the border has discretion about whether to admit any visitor. Visiting the U.S. by Canadians works much the same way in general. Here is what U.S. CBP (customs and Border Patrol says about it: "Canadian citizens traveling to the U.S. ... may generally visit the U.S. for up to six months.... The burden of proof that the Canadian citizen is not an intended immigrant (plans to make the U.S. their primary residence) is always on the applicant. There is no set period of time Canadians must wait to reenter the U.S. after the end of their stay, but if it appears to the CBP Officer that the person applying for entry is spending more time over-all in the U.S. than in Canada, it will be up to the traveler to prove to the officer that they are not de-facto U.S. residents. One of the ways to do this is demonstrate significant ties to their home country, including proof of employment, residency, etc." https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/619/kw/canadian%20length%20of%20stay/session/L3RpbWUvMTQyMTM4NTAwNy9zaWQvMUhTY3V6Y20%3D/suggested/1

There is also a very interesting article on "Lexology" about whether Canadians can stay more than six months out of every year in the U.S., and again, Canada has very similar rules for U.S. citizens visiting Canada. The thing that is very different in the U.S. is the tax rule. The IRS has rules like almost no other country when it comes to income taxes. Anyway, the part up to and including the paragraph "Immigration rule summary" would likely apply approximately to U.S. visitors to Canada. http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=bb7206f5-69f7-472f-94a2-cfb18755e3ea

i HIGHLY doubt CBSA ACTUALLY tracks how many days someone is in canada. ... Yes, the 2 countries over share information, they just aren't counting the number of days people are in each country, marking them in the system, and using that information to decide people's future entry.

This has changed, as recently as the end of June and they do keep track of days now, though whether they use those to decide people's future entry, I can't say. The United States-Canada Beyond the Border Action plan has this on page 10:

"Establish and coordinate entry and exit information systems, including a system
which permits sharing information so that the record of a land entry into one
country can be utilized to establish an exit record from the other.

"Next Steps: To establish coordinated entry and exit systems at the common land border, we commit
to develop a system to exchange biographical information on the entry of travelers, including
citizens, permanent residents, and third country nationals, such that a record of entry into one
country could be considered as a record of an exit from the other. Implementation will be phased in:

"− By September 30, 2012, we will begin implementation of a pilot project exchanging the data
of third country nationals, permanent residents of Canada, and lawful permanent residents
in the United States, at 2 to 4 automated common land border ports of entry;

"− By June 30, 2013, we will begin implementation of a program exchanging the data of third
country nationals, permanent residents of Canada, and lawful permanent residents in the
United States at all automated common land border ports of entry; and

"− By June 30, 2014, we will expand the program to include the exchange of data on all travelers
at all automated common land border ports of entry.

"With respect to air travel, by June 30, 2014, Canada will develop a system to establish exit, similar to
that in the United States, under which airlines will be required to submit their passenger manifest
information on outbound international flights. Exploratory work will be conducted for future integration
of entry and exit information systems for the marine and rail modes. The United States and
Canada will share appropriate entry and exit information in these other modes in order to achieve
our goals as set out in this Action Plan.

"Measuring Progress: DHS, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, and the Canada Border Services
Agency will measure the security benefits of exit measures via the identification of: persons detected
overstaying their visa and immigration warrant closures; entry and exit records matched that indicate
a lawful exit from either country; individuals who may have failed to meet residency requirements
for permanent resident status or citizenship applications; and persons subject to a removal or
departure order and who are recorded as having departed."

The document is at http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/wh/us-canada-btb-action-plan.pdf

 

[BeShoo]

These stats have been mentioned as possible way to keep track of Canadians who are not eligible for OHIP or other provincial health plans due to staying outside the province more than half the year. Up until now, it's been almost impossible for provincial governments to determine this with any precision.