Obtaining estranged mother's birth certificate?

[AdamC100]

Hi everyone,

I've been reading a lot on the internet and this forum, but have a fairly (I assume) unique situation, but forgive me if I posted in the wrong place.

I am 3rd generation Canadian (grandfather and grandmother born in BC, mother in Toronto) but my mother went to school in the U.S., so that's where I was born. I barely know my father, and my mother was, in kind words, not very good to me and disappeared in and out of my life from the time I was an infant, so I ended up growing up in the U.S. more or less on my own. I was never aware of my Canadian citizenship until just recently, but now that I am, I would like to claim it.

Problem is, I am trying to prove my citizenship, and I have zero chance of asking my mother for her birth certificate because of the very poor/non-existent relationship I have with her. I'm assuming she's alive because I can not find a death record for her.

So what I'm wondering is if there is any work around way to prove my citizenship, such as obtaining my grandfather's birth (and death) certificate and then providing proof he was my mother's father? I know their birth and death dates, full names, birthplaces, etc.

Forgive me for my ignorance, and thank you for any advice
AdamC100

 

[hawk39]

Outside of the established guidelines for proof of parental citizenship (provincial/territorial birth certificate or citizenship certificate), I don't believe you would be able to proceed with your application without it. ServiceOntario states that you can only order a certified copy of birth registration of your parent if the parent is deceased, and you would have to submit supporting documents when you apply for it. If you insist on trying to find a workaround, I think it would be best to consult a legal expert.

I'm sorry to hear that you did not have a relationship with your mother when you were a child, but over the years, her feelings towards you may have changed. Have you tried to find or contact her lately?

 

[AdamC100]

If you insist on trying to find a workaround, I think it would be best to consult a legal expert

I think that's probably my best option at this point. I'm not really worried about proving I'm a citizen, I'm just not sure how to go about it in this situation.

I'm sorry to hear that you did not have a relationship with your mother when you were a child, but over the years, her feelings towards you may have changed. Have you tried to find or contact her lately?

She came back into my life when I was 12 (after being gone for 8 years), and things weren't too bad until a few years later when I began questioning her newly found religion, and it all went downhill very fast from then on.

It got to the point of her calling my girlfriend racial slurs and attempting to bomb my reputation wherever I went, following me or calling my bosses and harassing me even after moving to a different state. I gave her "break" periods of a couple years at a time, but each time after "I'm so sorry, I'll be better." she quickly devolved into the same racial attacks on the same girlfriend, so I cut ties after a few years of trying to reason with her.

So I personally don't think I'm ever going to earn her approval, especially since I'm still with my same girlfriend after 10 years.

 

[hawk39]

She came back into my life when I was 12 (after being gone for 8 years), and things weren't too bad until a few years later when I began questioning her newly found religion, and it all went downhill very fast from then on.

It got to the point of her calling my girlfriend racial slurs and attempting to bomb my reputation wherever I went, following me or calling my bosses and harassing me even after moving to a different state. I gave her "break" periods of a couple years at a time, but each time after "I'm so sorry, I'll be better." she quickly devolved into the same racial attacks on the same girlfriend, so I cut ties after a few years of trying to reason with her.

So I personally don't think I'm ever going to earn her approval, especially since I'm still with my same girlfriend after 10 years.

Yeah, that's pretty unforgivable; it does not look like that she can change her personality. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

 

[AdamC100]

I've forgiven her, and she may change later on...but I'm not going to keep running back to the fire and get burned.

I'll try and remember to update the thread with which route I took, as I haven't found anyone else's resolution online yet.

 

[Wyfarer]

I see two opportunities for you. As a side-note, I just sent my application for my mom's (deceased) birth certificate today to Alberta. My mom passed so there's that and I didn't have the estrangement part either (sorry to read about that), so my request/application was pretty straightforward. Further, getting this birth certificate is stage/phase I for what I need to do, and you should too, is Application for Citizenship Certificate -- Proof of Citizenship which is stage/phase II for me.

In Alberta, the Province uses a third party "clearing house" to disseminate this information. not sure how Ontario does it. So what you need to first find (and you can do it online) is what are the requirements for your request as a son to get your mother's birth certificate in Ontario. Registry Connection, the agency in Alberta, has a laundry list of situations in which you or someone (an attorney) else could get it. In Alberta, the two opportunities (gotta imagine they would be similar in Ontario) I think you would fit into would be:

1. A person with an order from the court. A copy of the order must be attached to this application. I think you would probably have to engage a lawyer in the States to get a US court order--this is assuming Canada would accept a court order from the States. I can't imagine it would cost too much, just some very simple procedures. You might even be able to get this order using an attorney in Canada, Ontario specifically from a Canadian Court.

2. A person who requires it to comply with another legislation. A copy of the legislation must be attached to this application. That "other" legislation would be for the Application for Citizenship Certificate which you are going to apply for anyway. You just need your mom's birth cert to start that process.

Anyway, my two cents worth; oh, wait, they don't use those in Canada any longer!

 

[AdamC100]

Thank you for that information, I appreciate it and will look into it.

 

[hawk39]

In Alberta, the Province uses a third party "clearing house" to disseminate this information... Registry Connection, the agency in Alberta, has a laundry list of situations in which you or someone (an attorney) else could get it.

Why pay an agency to do this work, when you can apply directly from the provincial government?

1. A person with an order from the court. A copy of the order must be attached to this application. I think you would probably have to engage a lawyer in the States to get a US court order--this is assuming Canada would accept a court order from the States. I can't imagine it would cost too much, just some very simple procedures. You might even be able to get this order using an attorney in Canada, Ontario specifically from a Canadian Court.

I'm going to speculate here as I am not a lawyer, but a judgment made in a US court would have no bearing in Canada. There is no law in the US that requires a parent to surrender their birth certificate so that it can be used to help their family obtain status in another country. If Adam wants to get an effective court order, I think he would have to obtain it in Canada. I would also imagine that this could get pretty expensive too, if it goes beyond just filing paperwork. If there is no precedent set for such a situation, the lawyer will have to argue the case in court, and that will take time; and time is money in the law business. They could even charge you if you were to talk over the phone or through e-mail.

 

[Wyfarer]

Why pay an agency to do this work, when you can apply directly from the provincial government?

Because Alberta uses a third party (agency--Registry Connect in Alberta) to get Certs. One can certainly call the provincial government (I did), but they will direct you to Registry Connect to mail/pay. Like I think I wrote above, I don't know if Ontario uses a third party (agency) or not...Adam could figure that out easy enough.

I'm going to speculate here as I am not a lawyer, but a judgment made in a US court would have no bearing in Canada. There is no law in the US that requires a parent to surrender their birth certificate so that it can be used to help their family obtain status in another country. If Adam wants to get an effective court order, I think he would have to obtain it in Canada. I would also imagine that this could get pretty expensive too, if it goes beyond just filing paperwork. If there is no precedent set for such a situation, the lawyer will have to argue the case in court, and that will take time; and time is money in the law business. They could even charge you if you were to talk over the phone or through e-mail.

Yes and no. I tend to agree with the above thoughts, but I can tell ya that a lot of countries have reciprocal judgements/laws; specifically in child maintenance (I think), definitely in child custody cases, etc. And look at extraditions that go on around the world with reciprocal countries. Certainly I gotta imagine most have heard of the Julian Assange case where he is holed up in the Ecuador embassy in the UK; this makes news because the latter does NOT have reciprocal processes/procedures with many other countries--well, at least the US.

Most lawyers, from my limited experience, will take a call or allow for a conversation for nothing. I don't know on either end, Canada or the USA, what type of lawyer one might engage, perhaps immigration attorney? People can say what they wanna say about attorneys/lawyers (my dad was one of them), but most (although I don't know about the Canadian legal system) will be pretty straight up on whether or not they can help you and what it would take to engage them. Plus, this is just for one document, not like they are being engaged for the whole process. One could even ask the question: "Have you secured birth certificates in this situation before?" No? Okay, do you have a referral of who might specialize in this?

As an aside, and I think you may need to know this Adam, I think you should be able to find out if your mom is a US Citizen or just a Permanent Resident here in the States easy enough.

 

[hawk39]

Sure, many friendly countries have reciprocal laws and agreements that work to benefit each other, such as extradition and business. However, I don't think there are reciprocal laws among friendly countries that exists for the promotion and assistance of obtaining multiple citizenships. The US accepts multiple citizenships, but it also warns against it because of obligations that the other countries impose on their citizens, such as South Korea's mandatory military service.

Mea culpa, the initial consultation is always gratis to determine if the lawyer feels that the client has a strong case. I meant to say that it gets expensive when the client has hired the lawyer, then every activity done is billed to the client, even further consultations can be billed. So the more activities that the lawyer has to undertake after getting hired, the more the lawyer charges. If there has been no established case or precedent where a lawyer has successfully sued on behalf of a client to obtain the parent's birth certificate for the purpose of establishing citizenship, then it has to be argued and ruled in court to create the precedent. In my short time reading up on Canadian citizenship, I have not read any instance where someone has sued to get their parent's birth certificate to get establish citizenship by descent; so if Adam were to pursue this and there is no precedent of the same situation, then his case could potentially create the precedent for others with his situation could use to get their citizenships too; but it could also take a bit of time and money, unless the lawyer takes the case for free.

Actually, Adam just needs to find out if his mother had voluntarily renounced her Canadian citizenship before he was born. It does not matter if she is a US citizen or PR.

 

[Wyfarer]

However, I don't think there are reciprocal laws among friendly countries that exists for the promotion and assistance of obtaining multiple citizenships. The US accepts multiple citizenships, but it also warns against it because of obligations that the other countries impose on their citizens, such as South Korea's mandatory military service.

Regardless of one's "additional" citizenship status, the US will still "impose" the filing of income taxes with the same. Some, US Citizens, will renounce their US citizenship for the sole reason that they don't want to be obligated to file and pay a US income tax return. I had that conversation with my Aussie/now American/US wife; what do the Australians impose upon you about earning income abroad? Nothing, she said. However, we had an incident last month where we were in Australia (a wedding) and an ER visit. They asked if she was an Australian citizen, she was, and "they" looked in whatever, online, "their" system...but it was quickly figured out (in a few minutes mind) that she hadn't paid into the "system" in a long while (13 years), so please give us your credit card--which we did.

...In my short time reading up on Canadian citizenship, I have not read any instance where someone has sued to get their parent's birth certificate to get establish citizenship by descent; so if Adam were to pursue this and there is no precedent of the same situation, then his case could potentially create the precedent for others with his situation could use to get their citizenships too; but it could also take a bit of time and money, unless the lawyer takes the case for free.

"Actually, Adam just needs to find out if his mother had voluntarily renounced her Canadian citizenship before he was born. It does not matter if she is a US citizen or PR." Sorry, can't get the quote function to work my way!

An attorney wouldn't do something free if setting a precedent, unless he or she had a hard-on to be a Legal Eagle (probably US term), or the outcome was a pouring out of more cases like Adam's.

It DOES matter if Adam's mother is a US Citizen vs PR, cuz in the latter she wouldn't be renouncing anything in that process of becoming a PR vs US Citizen which you do at the ceremony of the same.

 

[AdamC100]

Thank you for the replies and I've read through them, so don't take my short post as evidence of not doing so.

Anyway, I can answer a few points.

I believe my mother was a Canadian citizen when I was born, because she had only been in the US a couple of years at most. She grew up in Canada and hadn't lived in the US until her 20s when she went to college. I think/suspect she has become a US citizen later on however, I can't be sure. She may be a long term permanent resident.

I'm curious, if my mother renounced her Canadian citizenship and I was already born, would that honestly somehow renounce my own citizenship? If that's the way things are I can accept it, but it also doesn't seem fair at the same time, at least to me if I wanted to return to Canada as a citizen (which I very much do). I don't even mind paying "back taxes" for the healthcare system and the like if necessary.

 

[Wyfarer]

Thank you for the replies and I've read through them, so don't take my short post as evidence of not doing so.

Anyway, I can answer a few points.

I believe my mother was a Canadian citizen when I was born, because she had only been in the US a couple of years at most. She grew up in Canada and hadn't lived in the US until her 20s when she went to college. I think/suspect she has become a US citizen later on however, I can't be sure. She may be a long term permanent resident.

I'm curious, if my mother renounced her Canadian citizenship and I was already born, would that honestly somehow renounce my own citizenship? If that's the way things are I can accept it, but it also doesn't seem fair at the same time, at least to me if I wanted to return to Canada as a citizen (which I very much do). I don't even mind paying "back taxes" for the healthcare system and the like if necessary.

Hawk seem to enlighten me and/or another poster about some things as far about "renouncing" in some 2009 and 2015 legislation i.e. "renouncing" not being what it may seem in that respect. At least perhaps in my respect.

How old are you Adam? Just as a barometer, I'm 58 and married to a dual citizen, Australian and USA. If I was to emigrate to Australia I think I would have to put up a financial bond (as a non-Australian citizen) on my end for heath services till my "probation" where I didn't show up with terminal cancer or a host of ailments. If you are young, gawd, anything under 50, you may not have these "bond" requirements in Canada, especially if you are determined to be a citizen by the State (Canada).

 

[Wyfarer]

Hawk seem to enlighten me and/or another poster about some things as far about "renouncing" in some 2009 and 2015 legislation i.e. "renouncing" not being what it may seem in that respect. At least perhaps in my respect.

How old are you Adam? Just as a barometer, I'm 58 and married to a dual citizen, Australian and USA. If I was to emigrate to Australia I think I would have to put up a financial bond (as a non-Australian citizen) on my end for heath services till my "probation" where I didn't show up with terminal cancer or a host of ailments. If you are young, gawd, anything under 50, you may not have these "bond" requirements in Canada, especially if you are determined to be a citizen by the State (Canada).

Incidentally Adam, there is no "long term permanent resident"...you is either PR (Permanent Resident) or not. Longevity as such only comes into play when/if you want to be a US Citizen. Kinda like a prison term; you gotta reach a certain number of years to turn one's PR into US Citizenship.

 

[AdamC100]

How old are you Adam? Just as a barometer, I'm 58 and married to a dual citizen, Australian and USA. If I was to emigrate to Australia I think I would have to put up a financial bond (as a non-Australian citizen) on my end for heath services till my "probation" where I didn't show up with terminal cancer or a host of ailments. If you are young, gawd, anything under 50, you may not have these "bond" requirements in Canada, especially if you are determined to be a citizen by the State (Canada).

I'm 32 this year and very healthy. Good vitals, slightly history of asthma, but physically active and slim. But even if so, I don't mind posting up a bond for healthcare because I don't want to take out what is not "right", if anything, in principle. I don't want to show up to a party I am invited to and not bring anything.

Incidentally Adam, there is no "long term permanent resident"...you is either PR (Permanent Resident) or not. Longevity as such only comes into play when/if you want to be a US Citizen. Kinda like a prison term; you gotta reach a certain number of years to turn one's PR into US Citizenship.

Thank you, I didn't know what else to call "it". I know very little about my mother except that she's been in the US (I think) since 84'. I have no idea if she ever became a citizen.