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not sure if I'm eligible... please help

marta cocchi

Full Member
Oct 31, 2013
41
7
The physical presence calculator says I have enough days to apply for citizenship today but the requirements are that I have been a PR for 3 years, which I haven't. Please help.
I became a PR on March 10, 2017 but have physically present in Canada since 2014.
The physical presence calculator exact question is: Did you have Canadian temporary resident status (i.e. as a visitor, international student, temporary worker, temporary resident permit holder), and/or were a protected person) between 2014-05-19 and 2017-03-09?
Being european I entered the country without needing a visa so technically I did need to have a visitor visa.
Can I count the time before my PR as valid?
Thank you for your time and patience.
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
13,187
2,420
If you were legally present in Canada as a visitor or temp resident same thing really before becoming PR March 2017 you can count one half day for each full day present to a mx 1 year credit add that to 2 years or more since March 2017 and you have the 3 years in the 5 years at application time if for example you applied today. Note all days you claim must be physical days in the country so cannot claim any time you were out of the country in those 5 years.

The physical presence calculator should confirm that you are eligible if you have enough physical presence days pre and post becoming a PR.
 
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marta cocchi

Full Member
Oct 31, 2013
41
7
How can I prove I was in the country before I got my PR? Being European I didn't need a visitor visa, I don't have any document to prove my physical presence. Will that be a problem? Thanks.
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
How can I prove I was in the country before I got my PR? Being European I didn't need a visitor visa, I don't have any document to prove my physical presence. Will that be a problem? Thanks.
According to IRCC's website, "Most visitors can stay for up to 6 months in Canada. At the port of entry, the border services officer may allow you to stay for less or more than 6 months. If so, they'll put the date you need to leave by in your passport."

Since you had been in Canada from 2014 - 2017 as a visitor, there are only two possibilities:
1. You followed the rule and applied for extension every 6 months or you left Canada every 6 months then came back shortly after - then there must be some paperwork or stamps on your passport to show it, or
2. You overstayed your 6-month limit and were staying illegally, but it somehow slipped through the system and they didn't catch it when processing your PR application ...
The second scenario would be more troublesome, and if that's the case, you may not get any credit at all for the time you were overstaying..
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,801
2,250
Canada
How can I prove I was in the country before I got my PR? Being European I didn't need a visitor visa, I don't have any document to prove my physical presence. Will that be a problem? Thanks.
IRCC has records of your entries to the country - and exits, if by plane or commercial travel. If, as said above, you overstayed between 2014 and 2017 (without any application for extension, you did overstay, if you were only a temporary resident status via an EU passport), you may have a larger issue and should wait until you have the clear time from when you last had legal status to apply for citizenship.

If you are able to count your time before PR because you did have legal status, look at your airline booking to Canada. Count from the date you arrived with legal status.
 

sistemc

Hero Member
Feb 2, 2014
514
178
How can I prove I was in the country before I got my PR? Being European I didn't need a visitor visa, I don't have any document to prove my physical presence. Will that be a problem? Thanks.
I find it impossible that your passport wasn’t stamped on entry.
 

FloydCan

Star Member
Nov 17, 2017
192
86
IRCC has records of your entries to the country - and exits, if by plane or commercial travel.
Check your facts before making ill-informed statements. 1. CBSA has the entry records not IRCC. 2. As of today exits are not recorded or else everyone's life would've been easier. This will change with Bill C-21 and CBSA will have exit information collected through electronic passenger manifests received directly from air carriers.
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,801
2,250
Canada
Check your facts before making ill-informed statements. 1. CBSA has the entry records not IRCC. 2. As of today exits are not recorded or else everyone's life would've been easier. This will change with Bill C-21 and CBSA will have exit information collected through electronic passenger manifests received directly from air carriers.
They have it already in many cases, friends. Calm down.
IRCC gets the information from CBSA.
 
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k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,801
2,250
Canada
Check your facts before making ill-informed statements. 1. CBSA has the entry records not IRCC. 2. As of today exits are not recorded or else everyone's life would've been easier. This will change with Bill C-21 and CBSA will have exit information collected through electronic passenger manifests received directly from air carriers.
They do collect exist information for everyone other than Canadian citizens, at present.

From the debates on C-21, via Ralph Goodale:
Right now those records are kept if one is a foreign national or if one is a permanent resident, but they are not kept if one is a Canadian citizen.
https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-21/
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
How can I prove I was in the country before I got my PR? Being European I didn't need a visitor visa, I don't have any document to prove my physical presence. Will that be a problem? Thanks.
Actually the problem is more difficult than that.

Proving physical presence can be done with evidence of where you were living, working, or engaging in other activities, and can include documentation showing things like dentist visits or even testimonial statements from other people attesting to the fact you were physically present during particular periods of time. Note, after all, even after a person becomes a Permanent Resident, that does not necessarily show they were physically present in Canada . . . they can still be required to provide objective evidence of their physical presence.

Which is to say that a visa does NOT much evidence physical presence let alone PROVE physical presence.

Observations above about particular evidence of entries into Canada MISS the point. All evidence of an entry into Canada "proves" is that the individual was present in Canada THAT DAY, only that day. In conjunction with other evidence it may support an INFERENCE of presence other days, such as the days between the date of entry and the next known or reported date of exit . . . but that depends on additional evidence of actual physical presence during that period of time.


BUT YOUR MAIN PROBLEM APPEARS TO BE PROVING STATUS.

Physical presence alone is NOT enough for days in Canada (prior to becoming a PR) to count toward meeting the actual physical presence requirement. The applicant must prove he or she had temporary resident status during those days he or she was present in Canada.

As others have observed, yes, visitor status is temporary resident status, and COUNTS. BUT the burden of proving status is on the applicant . . . EXCEPT, as a practical matter, the applicant is not required to submit proof of this SO LONG AS the client's GCMS records show and confirm the individual's status.

IF in contrast, there was no formal visitor visa issued, and no formal Visitor Record issued, individuals who are visa-exempt will often, perhaps nearly always, NOT have GCMS records showing they were actually allowed into Canada as a temporary resident.

More than a few relying on periods of time in Canada as visitors, for which they were NOT issued a visa or VR, have reported their applications were RETURNED, not even processed. Not even given an opportunity to prove their physical presence during those periods of time.

The crux of the problem is that absent a formal visa (which can be just a stamp in the passport) or Visitor's Record (VR), there is NO documentation which will prove status. Failing to prove status fails to prove qualification for citizenship.

THAT SAID: there are circumstances in which visitors otherwise will have documentation establishing status. The most common such scenario is the visitor cohabiting with a Canadian partner who is sponsoring the individual for PR . . . if there was an inland PR visa in process, that will ordinarily have already documented at least the period of presence with temporary resident status during which that application was pending. Even if there was not an inland application in process, many "visitors" in Canada to be with a Canadian partner will actively obtain a Visitor's Record (mostly to facilitate extending the length of stay as a visitor), which will document status.


Side Note About Government Entry/Exit Records:

No matter how thorough the government becomes in collecting and maintaining exit and entry records, those will NEVER suffice to prove presence in Canada for any days other than those specific days. For obvious reasons, that is all they directly document.

In conjunction with other information, and evidence, that data can support an inference of presence during those days between a date of entry record and the next date of exit record. But that depends on being in conjunction with other evidence of actual presence those days.

There is no prospect, in the foreseeable future, that IRCC will be relying on such data to establish an immigrant's physical presence in Canada . . . rather, IRCC will continue to use such data to evaluate the accuracy of the immigrant's report of travel history.

But in any event, the real issue posed by the OP is about proof of STATUS not presence.

The physical presence calculator says I have enough days to apply for citizenship today but the requirements are that I have been a PR for 3 years, which I haven't. Please help.
I became a PR on March 10, 2017 but have physically present in Canada since 2014.
The physical presence calculator exact question is: Did you have Canadian temporary resident status (i.e. as a visitor, international student, temporary worker, temporary resident permit holder), and/or were a protected person) between 2014-05-19 and 2017-03-09?
Being european I entered the country without needing a visa so technically I did need to have a visitor visa.
Can I count the time before my PR as valid?
Thank you for your time and patience.
 
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FloydCan

Star Member
Nov 17, 2017
192
86
They do collect exist information for everyone other than Canadian citizens, at present.

From the debates on C-21, via Ralph Goodale:


https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-21/
Then why does IRCC bother with RQs when there is doubt about physical presence if it can simply see the exits. This topic has been cited many times in federal cases, here is an extract from one of those cases in 2018. By the way I copied and pasted it as is, I did not type "NOT" in all caps.

The judge also failed to consider the citizenship officer’s comments when she issued the following cautions about the reliability of CBSA reports and the information in the passport itself:

. . .

- Note: CBSA report has limitations. Even if the client would have provided a record from CBSA, the exits of Canada are NOTrecorded by CBSA.
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,801
2,250
Canada
Then why does IRCC bother with RQs when there is doubt about physical presence if it can simply see the exits. This topic has been cited many times in federal cases, here is an extract from one of those cases in 2018. By the way I copied and pasted it as is, I did not type "NOT" in all caps.
I just cited the Minister of Public Safety, making a public statement in Parliament. If he's misleading Parliament, then I don't know what to tell you.

I have requested ICES reports for people from CBSA before, and I have seen exit data recorded. Like I said above, it's not perfect and not every exit is recorded. But exits are indeed recorded sometimes, and often eventually. For Canadians, exit data is to some degree recorded to inform the federal government of people receiving benefits who leave the country (again, this takes months and is not 100% coverage, but it is something that everyone on EI is warned, that Canada receives travel data from commercial travel operators) and ICES reports somehow show exit data.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
Then why does IRCC bother with RQs when there is doubt about physical presence if it can simply see the exits. This topic has been cited many times in federal cases, here is an extract from one of those cases in 2018. By the way I copied and pasted it as is, I did not type "NOT" in all caps.

The judge also failed to consider the citizenship officer’s comments when she issued the following cautions about the reliability of CBSA reports and the information in the passport itself:

. . .

- Note: CBSA report has limitations. Even if the client would have provided a record from CBSA, the exits of Canada are NOTrecorded by CBSA.
As I observed above, which is an observation I have made many times in this forum, all a confirmed date of entry establishes is presence ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY. Likewise, all a confirmed date of exit establishes is presence ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY. (Even though a confirmed exit date establishes leaving Canada that day, it also establishes, proves, presence in Canada that day . . . and NO more than that.)

Proof of actual physical presence requires more, quite a lot more, than just a report of recorded dates of entry and dates of exit. A substantial amount of information/evidence of actual physical presence IN-BETWEEN known entry and exit dates is necessary . . . just to meet the minimum standards for making a complete application, let alone proving actual presence sufficient to grant the application.

If an applicant leaves out so much as one calendar month in the address or employment history, for example, IRCC will not even process the application. Yet this information, the address and employment history, does not directly relate to any qualification for citizenship. It is material, and more than that considered so importantly material that even one month gaps result in rejecting the application (returning it, which in effect denies the application unless the applicant amends and re-submits the application with no gaps in address or work history), because it is considered crucial evidence in assessing the applicant's claims about physical presence.

It is correct that the online presence calculator automatically infers the applicant was present in Canada from a declared date of entry to the next declared date of exit. BUT this does NOT create a presumption of presence during those in-between days. In particular, the online presence calculation output is DEPENDENT on IRCC being able to verify:

(1) that there is no indication of any unreported cross-border trips --
-- this is the reason why IRCC accesses CBSA travel history, to compare the applicant's declarations, looking for discrepancies or anomalies, and
-- why IRCC wants to examine ALL travel documents, again looking to see if information in passports or other travel documents suggests the possibility the applicant traveled outside Canada other than as declared
(2) that overall information about the applicant supports an inference of actual presence in-between those dates (thus, for example, no information indicating applicant was outside Canada a date the applicant reported being in Canada), and

(3) that otherwise there are no apparent reasons to question the applicant's travel history or accounting of physical presence

That is, the online presence calculator output (its total physical presence calculation), including the inference of presence in Canada from a declared date of entry to the next declared date of exit, is a CONTINGENT conclusion . . . contingent on the applicant's other information being consistent with and supporting the calculation . . . and thus subject to verification as I just outlined.

The government data, which by the way does, increasingly, include exit data as well as entry data (currently the exit data is not as reliably complete as the entry data, but it is headed that way), should indeed HELP IRCC better and more efficiently assess citizenship applicant presence calculations. BUT as I have oft emphasized, IRCC does NOT use this information, these records, to prove an applicant meets the presence requirement. They use these records to see if there is reason to question the applicant's accounting. The burden of presentation and proof is on the applicant. There is NO hint this will change in the foreseeable future. No matter how thorough and reliable Canada is able to capture and maintain client entry and exit dates.

What is sometimes overlooked is that the travel history data, the reported and known entry and exit dates, which it is the applicant's burden to provide, to provide these dates completely and accurately, is merely a baseline of information.

IRCC is NOT satisfied the applicant meets the physical presence requirement UNLESS and until the review of ALL other relevant information (including information from government sources, including CBSA records of entry dates, including CBSA access to records like U.S. entry dates which are considered to show exit dates from Canada) CONFIRMS the applicant's reported presence calculation, at least sufficiently well to not raise concerns about meeting the presence requirement (minor errors or even omissions do not ordinarily sabotage the application UNLESS the discrepancy suggests a POSSIBILITY the applicant did not meet the requirements).

IN OTHER WORDS, IT IS NO SURPRISE THAT IRCC CONTINUES TO ISSUE RQ - RELATED REQUESTS . . . notwithstanding the extent to which IRCC can now access extensive (and increasingly comprehensive) government records showing an immigrant's exit and entry dates.



By the way . . .

It helps to provide at least an identifying citation, even better an actual link, when referring to Federal Court decisions. I do not doubt your claim to accurately quoting the Federal Court but obviously you did NOT copy and paste it verbatim . . . a search for "NOTrecorded" (which is what you have "pasted" in your quote) or "notrecorded," results in ZERO hits in the database of Federal Court decisions . . . and indeed in all of CanII there is just one hit for this typo, in the summary for a 2003 Canadian bar document totally unrelated to immigration or citizenship.

Additionally, the date of the decision (such as "2018") is helpful information, BUT especially in presence or residence cases, the date of the application itself is important . . . for example, one of the most recent citizenship application cases decided by the Federal Court relates to an application made in July 2014 . . . see the May 7, 2019 decision by Justice Mosley in the Nada case at http://canlii.ca/t/j065v . . . a great deal has changed since then, including the requirements for citizenship in MULTIPLE changes to the law, along with many changes in related policies and practices. While that case in particular is a minor/dependent case, it warrants noting that for adult applicants at that time, there was a RESIDENCY requirement, not a PRESENCE requirement, the relevant time period for calculating residency was just FOUR years not five, and the Obama-Harper agreement had not even been entered into yet for much of the relevant time period then, and was well short of being fully implemented even at the end of the relevant time period . . . which is simply to emphasize that a 2018 Federal Court decision does NOT necessarily reflect the nature or status of current data collection practices.
 
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FloydCan

Star Member
Nov 17, 2017
192
86
I just cited the Minister of Public Safety, making a public statement in Parliament. If he's misleading Parliament, then I don't know what to tell you.

I have requested ICES reports for people from CBSA before, and I have seen exit data recorded. Like I said above, it's not perfect and not every exit is recorded. But exits are indeed recorded sometimes, and often eventually. For Canadians, exit data is to some degree recorded to inform the federal government of people receiving benefits who leave the country (again, this takes months and is not 100% coverage, but it is something that everyone on EI is warned, that Canada receives travel data from commercial travel operators) and ICES reports somehow show exit data.
Fair enough. I take back my "ill-informed" comment.
 
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