Not meeting RO - Leon, Scylla and Msafiri Please respond

[Sydkadra]

Dear All
I landed in Canada in May 2010 with my family ( 6 children below 18) and stayed there for one month and I again went in May 2013 and stayed for 2 months. Now I want to go to Canada with my Family again in March 2015 and stay there permanently to apply for PR card in April 2017 after accumulating the 730 days requirement. My question is, how can I get through the CBSA checks with out being not reported for not being compliant of the RO requirement.

1- Whether Airport PoE is safe to enter into Canada without being reported. If the IO checks and decides to report what they will do whether they will fill the form 44 and handover to the PR or they allow them to enter and they send that form by mail. Please clarify this situation. As if they don't get convinced on the H&C grounds and intend to report whether we will know the same time that we are reported as this will give us time to complete the closing out of our Canadian obligations and move out of Canada by ourselves as we don't want to stay under the reported status which is risky for our family.

2. Whether the US road crossing will be better as I heard that the IOs will see only the IMM5000 ( Landed Immigrant Paper) only and they will not check the PR cards so that there will be more chances of passing the border and enter into Canada without being reported.

3. Whether it will improve the chances of not being reported if my family enters Canada in Aug 2014 instead of March 2015 in this case also we are not meeting the RO but the margin of days are less than that of entering in 2015.

Please reply in detail so that I can take appropriate decisions. Thank you for your time.

 

[scylla]

1. There is no "safe" POE for you and your family to enter. No matter what POE you use, there is some chance of being reported for failing to meet RO. If the immigration officer decides not to report you then nothing will happen and you can live in Canada for 730 days - and then apply to renew your PR cards. If the immigration officer decides to report you, then you will have a hearing within 30 days to discuss why you should be allowed to retain your PR status (note that financial and education reasons aren't accepted as H&C).
2. See above.
3. The sooner you return to Canada the better. Yes - return this August if you can.

 

[Sydkadra]

Thank you Scylla very much for your prompt reply.

My concern is only related to being reported by the IO at any type of PoE of Canada. My concern is that we just pass through the PoE and enter to Canada and to our surprise after some time suddenly get letter mentioning not meeting the RO and may loose the residency. My question that how can we ensure that everything is fine and we have to enter Canada and stay there to complete the required 730 day of stay to renew the PR cards of the family. I don't want to be in situation to know later any problem than to know at the PoE only so as to take appropriate actions without not disturbing the education of the children and incur more financial loss and loose the residency as well.
I will be grateful that if this aspect is clarified in more detail based on the known such stories from those who experienced similar situations.

Thanks and Regards

 

[Alurra71]

Thank you Scylla very much for your prompt reply.

My concern is only related to being reported by the IO at any type of PoE of Canada. My concern is that we just pass through the PoE and enter to Canada and to our surprise after some time suddenly get letter mentioning not meeting the RO and may loose the residency. My question that how can we ensure that everything is fine and we have to enter Canada and stay there to complete the required 730 day of stay to renew the PR cards of the family. I don't want to be in situation to know later any problem than to know at the PoE only so as to take appropriate actions without not disturbing the education of the children and incur more financial loss and loose the residency as well.
I will be grateful that if this aspect is clarified in more detail based on the known such stories from those who experienced similar situations.

Thanks and Regards

If you are reported, it will happen before you are allowed full entry into Canada. You would get paperwork at your POE. The only way you would get 'surprise' paperwork once you are in Canada would be if you tried to get something from CIC (new Pr card before you completed RO) and brought attention to the fact that you and your entire family don't meet the RO.

 

[Msafiri]

Sydkadra,

1. scylla on point there isn't a list of 'safe POEs' and 'non safe POE's' what there is either a lenient CBSA agent or a CBSA agent who follows the rule book and cuts through any of you 'story' and rightly decides you think PR status is some form of glorified visitors visa and proceeds to report you. Canada has due process so if reported you get issued a Departure Order (DO) which involves getting your bio-metrics recorded. You sign the DO and get a copy and since it has your photo on it you surely will know what's going on. If reporting is deferred again you get paperwork to this effect with a return appointment date to the POE or a Local CIC (deferral is rare).

2. You heard wrong - all POE's have access to the same databases. Your luck is based on the CBSA agent you find and if/how sympathetic to your cause he/she is.

3. It maybe that the CBSA agent is swayed by the more days with a 2014 re-entry against a 2015 re-entry in deciding to report or not to report but no one knows again as it depends. Statistically a case (before the courts for a sec 44 report) is easier to make with more days left to get to the 5 year anniversary of landing but the RO is clear its 730 days so legally if you have 729 then you are in breach just as the person with 200 days is.

What are your reasons for breaching the RO if ok to ask? I'm always puzzled why so many go through so much trouble to get PR then play roulette with the RO only to desperately seek a way out of their breach?

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear All

Thank you very much again Msafiri for your very informal but pertinent, terse and scary response based on what would be the sequels to the breach of the RO. It gives an ample clarification of the situation which may result in removal from Canada and I hope and pray that my family would not be the part of such harrowing process. Since you asked the question that after making so many efforts in obtaining the PR why the Permanent Residents fall in this kind of situation which will be breach of the RO and get into unnecessary troubles.
I believe most of those in the breach of the RO might have gone through the dilemma of staying in the first place or to come later for the stay keeping the status-quo in the country back home for various reasons but particularly keeping the job . As you know that most of the immigrants are employed and most of them well employed at the time of becoming PR and the first time when the arrive in Canada, the first time they arrive, they arrive here to know about the job situations in Canada the ease of getting it. For that reason, they come here mostly taking leave from their job from country of residence/origin. The other category of the immigrants are those who were employed but not well and they are of the view that whatever happens there in new country of residence (Canada) they will take challenge and face it.
Those who are well employed when they arrive in Canada, they hear many stories form their friends and acquaintance and one which is the delay in getting the job and the delay sometimes may last for months and years which will be a very scary scenario for the new comers. So what they do that since the time is available to them, they go back again to earn more and save more so when they return again they will be financially more sound and even lead the same style of life which they used to be in their country of origin/residence.
So this is the situation which entails the PR into such a precarious position where he/she will be in this situation not by the own choice but only to weather the odds they may face when they stay in Canada permanently. This is what I feel is one of the causes which will land the PRs in a situation of breach of RO.

 

[scylla]

What you have described is certainly a reason why some (perhaps many) have difficulty meeting RO. However CIC doesn't accept this as an H&C reason for failing to meet RO.

 

[Leon]

What you have described is certainly a reason why some (perhaps many) have difficulty meeting RO. However CIC doesn't accept this as an H&C reason for failing to meet RO.

Agreed. PR's should inform themselves about the RO and make sure they meet it. If you want to stay outside Canada to save up more money, you have up to 3 years to do it. If you cross that line, you can't well complain that you might have a problem keeping your PR.

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear Scylla, Leon and Msafiri
I am thankful to all of your for your expert pieces of advice as regards to overcome the breach of the RO and to enter Canada without much chances of being reported.
Sometimes such a situation can not be avoided for various reasons which may not stand considerable for CIC or CBSA officials. However, there is still a disconnect with what the job situations is portrayed by immigrant promoters and the actual situation. We see in the media about the requirement of tens of thousands of professionals, however, the reality on the ground is not that rosy and it goes by sheer luck which makes the PRs to opt for avenues which will keep them engaged/employed which may result sometimes in the breach of RO which they normally don't deliberately want to be in. I really, hope that all the Government officials will positively look into this aspect of the picture so as to take appropriate measures which will be win win equation to both the immigrants and the immigrating country.

Thanks

 

[Msafiri]

Sydkadra,

1. The majority of PRs in breach of the RO seem to historically have got a warning at the POE especially if they didn't try to play games with the CBSA agent. However residence fraud has become a 'political' issue and has acquired a significant profile for citizenship to the point that's its unfairly delayed the processing of otherwise eligible PRs. In the fraud mix is increasingly a tougher line on the PR RO on the premise that PR residence fraud often leads to Citizenship residence fraud and its easier to strip you off PR than it is Citizenship (well until Bill C-24 which became law earlier in June 2014). Ultimately the Canadian Government through CIC has to have a reference point. Canada has the weakest of all ROs in the G8 - 40% is at the 'laughable' scale if it was being looked at a 1-10 rating so when you breach it there is almost nil sympathy from the courts.

2. I entirely understand the job angle you explain but the RO is clearly spelt out when PRs get their PR Cards so its not a surprise. Its Human nature to have a back up plan and whether CIC likes it or not that is what Canadian PR status is to thousands of PR and if they can get by without being reported despite breaking the laws then this will continue. At some point in time the laws will have to change to narrow down the RO window from 5 years to say 2 years or more likely to amend the validity of PR Cards.

3. The FSW which historically had the bulk of the skilled immigrant pool had a mismatch with the labor market. The points matrix favored PRs with degrees including in regulated professions. Canada doesn't say need mechanical engineers it needs plumbers but the previous points matrix had the engineer passing the cut off but the plumber failing. The engineer would land in Canada and after struggling either started at an entry level in his/her profession or gave up took a survival job or headed back home. The plumber in turn needed a LMO got it and started work the day after landing. FSW has been modified to reflect the job market. Also CIC has introduced schemes like the Canadian Experience Class and PNP for those with Canadian educational qualifications.

4. To summarize 3 - the Feds (who run the Federal Immigration Programs) wanted an increased tax base (someone has to pay those pensions we will be living off in x years and the demographics profile are most scary being top heavy with more drawing than those paying in) and it doesn't matter if you get a job in your profession or not what matters is you work, pay taxes and add to the GDP/GNP but against this is the harsh but often neglected part in the 'immigrate to Canada its ranked 1,2,3 etc best place in the world chest thumping public relations line' that not every employer needs or even wants you/ your particular skill set. Add to this that for each PR giving up and quitting Canada there are 10 waiting in line to get in and so the cycle continues!!

Just my 2 cents

 

[Sydkadra]

Dear Msafiri, Leon, Scylla and others

As to come back to the issue of not meeting RO, my questions are again as follows.

1. At PoE we are having the auto-scanning kiosks where PRs are required to swipe their PR cards before moving out of immigration area of the airport, my question is that whether the Cards are not read of those PRs who have the RO issues, how these PRs are identified at these auto-scanning kiosks such are now available at YYZ airport.

2. When we meet with CBSA agent, how he get to know that we are not meeting the RO when there are no exit dates are available, whether they will ask us to tell about our stays in Canada or they check the passports etc. to know about our days present in Canada. Normally, what they will ask during this meeting.

3. Finally what the re H&C grounds which will be more admissible to the CBSA agent to consider favorably which will lead not to report considering the Education of the children will be affected if he the CBSA agents contemplating to report.

4. If the CBSA agent decides to report, what procedures they initiate at the airport/Land Border which will make us known that we are formally reported before they allow us to go out of airport/land border. So, reporting is basically making a case and during our stay in Canada a notice will be served to attend to immigration hearings, please provide the details.

Finally, I am really thankful to all of you experts who are doing a great services to provide very important information to all Canadian Immigrants and prospective immigrants.

Thanks

 

[Leon]

1. Not all PoE have auto-scanning kiosks but when they do, there is an immigration officer pulling out people for secondary inspections and some people have been reported after using an auto-scanning kiosk.

2. Canada does not do exit stamps but they may have access to that info from flight manifests or somewhere else. During the interview, the IO may ask you how long you were outside of Canada, what you were doing etc. If you are obviously lying they are more likely to report you. For example, if you say you were gone for 2 weeks but are obviously traveling with most of your worldly belongings, it's pretty easy to conclude that you are lying.

3. Some IO's just report every time and let the appeals board decide. Some may decide not to report, sometimes because they believe your story and probably often because they can't be bothered, you may have caught them on a good day, end of their shift etc. You can believe that an IO has heard a lot of excuse stories of why a PR could not meet the IO. Affect on the education of your children is a fairly bad excuse. If you are planning to say that you could not move earlier because your children would have suffered having to change schools, then the same reason would apply today. If you are planning to say that your children's education would be affected if the IO reports, they can say that if your children were going to school in your country of residency until now, they can do so again in the future. I have seen a ruling where a family that was in Canada for 5 years was deported. They met the RO but they failed to fulfill the requirements of their immigration program of entrepreneur. The ruling stated that their claim that their children's education would be affected if they were deported was not valid because their children were attending school in their home country until 5 years earlier, they speak their home country language and that their education would not suffer if they go back there.

The best excuse not to meet the RO is if you were forced to take care of a terminally ill close relative in your home country but you would have to be prepared to prove that with medical records and other proof that you were taking care of them.

4. They will definitely tell you if you are reported. It is also possible that they will ask you to come back for an appointment where they will decide if you are reported. This happened to one member on this forum. He said that it really looked like they wanted to report him but in the end, they decided not to. He was short very few days and he had mitigating circumstances of having a non-PR baby and having visa issues to bring his baby with him.