Not meeting RO and sponsoring spouse

[sg1234]

I read on this forum that if you are in breach of RO, you cannot submit a spousal sponsorship application until you meet RO otherwise, it will be refused and you can even lose your own PR status. Just need clarification regarding this based on below scenarios:

Person A lands in Canada, becomes a PR, stays for 2 months, goes back to their home country, gets married, comes back in 3 months and submits outland spousal sponsorship application. This scenario is common and IRCC will not refuse the application because the sponsor did not meet RO yet.

Person B lands in Canada, becomes a PR, leaves Canada within a month after receiving their PR card, gets married back home, decides to come back after 3.5 years and is let into the country as their PR card is still valid. This person needs to stay in Canada for 2 years to meet RO and according to older posts on this forum, they cannnot submit a spousal sponsorship application as they are in breach of RO and need to wait till they are RO compliant, so they can submit the spousal sponsorship application after 2 years only.

I want to understand why IRCC will not refuse the spousal sponsorship application for Person A but refuse for Person B? The only logical reason that I can think of is that you should submit the spousal sponsorship application before your 5 years anniversary from the date you landed and became a PR.

 

[Buletruck]

Because example A still has 4 1/2 years to meet residency obligation.

 

[sg1234]

Because example A still has 4 1/2 years to meet residency obligation.

So when does it become mandatory to meet RO to sponsor spouse? 3 years from the date of landing? 4 years? Is this rule always tied to date of landing?

 

[armoured]

So when does it become mandatory to meet RO to sponsor spouse? 3 years from the date of landing? 4 years? Is this rule always tied to date of landing?

You misunderstand compliance with the RO. One is in breach of the RO if one has been out of Canada more than 1095 days in the last five years or from date of landing (whichever is most recent).

In your first scenario, the PR is in compliance - has not been out of Canada more than 1095 days since landing.

In the second, the PR is in breach - out of Canada more than three years.

 

[sg1234]

You misunderstand compliance with the RO. One is in breach of the RO if one has been out of Canada more than 1095 days in the last five years or from date of landing (whichever is most recent).

In your first scenario, the PR is in compliance - has not been out of Canada more than 1095 days since landing.

In the second, the PR is in breach - out of Canada more than three years.

@armoured @Buletruck

I have another question regarding meeting RO. Lets say I landed on January 15th 2022 as a new PR and spent a total of 550 days in Canada before leaving and came back on January 15th 2027 which is the 5 year anniversary from the date of landing, when do I meet RO in this case? After spending 730 - 550 = 180 days from January 15th 2027 or is it 730 - 550 = 180 * 2 = 360 days from January 15th 2027?

Based on what I understood and calculated, if you are not meeting RO in your first 5 years, then you need to double the amount of remaining RO required days because your original landing date will shift when you calculate last 5 years from when you meet RO.

This stuff is very confusing, please help.

 

[Besram]

@armoured @Buletruck

I have another question regarding meeting RO. Lets say I landed on January 15th 2022 as a new PR and spent a total of 550 days in Canada before leaving and came back on January 15th 2027 which is the 5 year anniversary from the date of landing, when do I meet RO in this case? After spending 730 - 550 = 180 days from January 15th 2027 or is it 730 - 550 = 180 * 2 = 360 days from January 15th 2027?

Based on what I understood and calculated, if you are not meeting RO in your first 5 years, then you need to double the amount of remaining RO required days because your original landing date will shift when you calculate last 5 years from when you meet RO.

This stuff is very confusing, please help.

In your scenario, you would already be in breach of the residency obligation when you return and you could be reported and the process of revoking your PR could be started.

If you are lucky and you are being let in to the country without being reported, you would have to stay a full 2 years to cure the breach, i.e. before you can safely apply for a new PR card. Note I am assuming your would spend all 550 days immediately after landing in Canada, which is how I read your statement above.

You have to understand the residency obligation is a five-year rolling window, meaning at any point you need to be able to look back at the last 5 years and have been in Canada for at least 730 days.

When you return at the 5-year anniversary of your landing, you are starting to "lose" the earliest days of your stay in Canada, i.e. for each day you add by being in Canada, another one falls outside the 5 year window for your initial 550 days in Canada. So you would have to stay in Canada for 550 days before you start adding net days of residency, and then you still need another 180 days until you are in full compliance (730 days).

 

[sg1234]

In your scenario, you would already be in breach of the residency obligation when you return and you could be reported and the process of revoking your PR could be started.

If you are lucky and you are being let in to the country without being reported, you would have to stay a full 2 years to cure the breach, i.e. before you can safely apply for a new PR card. Note I am assuming your would spend all 550 days immediately after landing in Canada, which is how I read your statement above.

You have to understand the residency obligation is a five-year rolling window, meaning at any point you need to be able to look back at the last 5 years and have been in Canada for at least 730 days.

When you return at the 5-year anniversary of your landing, you are starting to "lose" the earliest days of your stay in Canada, i.e. for each day you add by being in Canada, another one falls outside the 5 year window for your initial 550 days in Canada. So you would have to stay in Canada for 550 days before you start adding net days of residency, and then you still need another 180 days until you are in full compliance (730 days).

This applies only when I come back on or after my 5 year anniversary date right? Lets say I came back 3 months before my 5 year anniversary date, so I have lived in Canada for 550 + 90 = 640 days in the first 5 years since landing, in this case I need to stay for 730 - 640 = 90 days and an additional 90 days to meet RO? This additional days part is still not clear to me.

 

[Besram]

This applies only when I come back on or after my 5 year anniversary date right? Lets say I came back 3 months before my 5 year anniversary date, so I have lived in Canada for 550 + 90 = 640 days in the first 5 years since landing, in this case I need to stay for 730 - 640 = 90 days and an additional 90 days to meet RO? This additional days part is still not clear to me.

If you come back 90 days before your 5-year landing anniversary, then you'll have to stay 2 years / 730 days from that day, or 640 days from the 5-year anniversary of your landing date.

 

[sg1234]

If you come back 90 days before your 5-year landing anniversary, then you'll have to stay 2 years / 730 days from that day, or 640 days from the 5-year anniversary of your landing date.

Still confused because based on what you are saying, I have stay to 730 days from the day I come back not matter what which makes no sense. What if I come back 180 days early and meet RO exactly on my 5 year anniversary date, I still have to stay 730 - 180 = 550 days extra to meet RO?

 

[Besram]

Please read this again and let me know what part you don't understand:

When you return at the 5-year anniversary of your landing, you are starting to "lose" the earliest days of your stay in Canada, i.e. for each day you add by being in Canada, another one falls outside the 5 year window for your initial 550 days in Canada. So you would have to stay in Canada for 550 days before you start adding net days of residency, and then you still need another 180 days until you are in full compliance (730 days).

 

[Besram]

Still confused because based on what you are saying, I have stay to 730 days from the day I come back not matter what which makes no sense. What if I come back 180 days early and meet RO exactly on my 5 year anniversary date, I still have to stay 730 - 180 = 550 days extra to meet RO?

No, you would meet the residency obligation exactly is this scenario. But this is because you return to Canada just before you are in breach in this scenario. What is still true though is that you could not leave Canada for 730 days without being immediately in breach of the residency obligation.

Again, this is because any residency days older than 5 years at any given time can no longer be counted towards the residency obligation. So, for a period of 550 days after your 5-year landing anniversary, any day you stay in Canada is a net zero gain for the residency obligation, because the "oldest" of the 550 days you stayed in Canada immediately following your landing (i.e. more than 5 years ago at that point) will fall outside of the 5-year window. You add a day, but then you lose one at the same time.

Does this make sense now?

 

[sg1234]

No, you would meet the residency obligation exactly is this scenario. But this is because you return to Canada just before you are in breach in this scenario. What is still true though is that you could not leave Canada for 730 days without being immediately in breach of the residency obligation.

Again, this is because any residency days older than 5 years at any given time can no longer be counted towards the residency obligation. So, for a period of 550 days after your 5-year landing anniversary, any day you stay in Canada is a net zero gain for the residency obligation, because the "oldest" of the 550 days you stayed in Canada immediately following your landing (i.e. more than 5 years ago at that point) will fall outside of the 5-year window. You add a day, but then you lose one at the same time.

Does this make sense now?

Yes, makes sense. If I stayed for 550 days in Canada in the first 5 years and came back exactly on the 5 year anniversary date, I first need to stay in Canada for 730 - 550 = 180 days to make up for days lost and an additional 180 days to meet RO so it will be 180 * 2 = 360 days total after coming back.

 

[scylla]

Yes, makes sense. If I stayed for 550 days in Canada in the first 5 years and came back exactly on the 5 year anniversary date, I first need to stay in Canada for 730 - 550 = 180 days to make up for days lost and an additional 180 days to meet RO so it will be 180 * 2 = 360 days total after coming back.

That's not how the calculation works at all. There is no doubling up. Not sure where you are getting that from. How many days you need to stay to be in compliance with the residency requirement once you return depends on when you accummuldated the 550 days. It's a rolling five years. Only days within the previous five years count.

 

[armoured]

Yes, makes sense. If I stayed for 550 days in Canada in the first 5 years and came back exactly on the 5 year anniversary date, I first need to stay in Canada for 730 - 550 = 180 days to make up for days lost and an additional 180 days to meet RO so it will be 180 * 2 = 360 days total after coming back.

I lost track of all your scenarios but let's go back to what I said:
"One is in breach of the RO if one has been out of Canada more than 1095 days in the last five years or from date of landing (whichever is most recent)."

To apply this to your scenario:
-you don't specify when you spent those 550 days but let's assume they were at the beginning of your PR-dom (right after landing, continuous stay).
-You then return on the five year anniversary. Looking back five years, you have been out of Canada more than 1095 days (5*365 = 1825 days in five years, 1825 - 550 days you were in Canada = 1275 which is well over 1095 days.

[To understand, if you did this calc the next day, it would be 1825 - 549 days after landing - 1 day after returning = 1275. The next day after that it would be 1825 - 548 - 2 = 1275. This is the effect of having earlier days 'drop off'. The 'days outside Canada in last five years' figure would not start to drop for ... [oh please someone else do the arithmetic] ]

So you are not in compliance on the day you return. You cannot return to compliance until you have stayed in Canada enough days until you've been out of Canada LESS than 1095 days in the most recent five years. We no longer need to keep the landing date in the calc, you're only looking at the most recent five years. That's a simple calc:
1825 days (in last five years) - 1095 (days outside Canada max) = 730 days in Canada needed to be in compliance. That's the number of days you need to remain. That's two years.*

Oh wait - this is exactly the same result @Besram got and informed you of. For the exact same logic and reasons, any days you had accumulated before you spent 1095+ days outside Canada (using continuous stays in/out of Canada for simplicity) are no longer relevant (they 'drop out of' the residency compliance calculation.

Hope this helps.


*For simplicity I ignore leap years and all that. Anyone that close that it might matter should be extra cautious.

 

[sg1234]

I lost track of all your scenarios but let's go back to what I said:
"One is in breach of the RO if one has been out of Canada more than 1095 days in the last five years or from date of landing (whichever is most recent)."

To apply this to your scenario:
-you don't specify when you spent those 550 days but let's assume they were at the beginning of your PR-dom (right after landing, continuous stay).
-You then return on the five year anniversary. Looking back five years, you have been out of Canada more than 1095 days (5*365 = 1825 days in five years, 1825 - 550 days you were in Canada = 1275 which is well over 1095 days.

[To understand, if you did this calc the next day, it would be 1825 - 549 days after landing - 1 day after returning = 1275. The next day after that it would be 1825 - 548 - 2 = 1275. This is the effect of having earlier days 'drop off'. The 'days outside Canada in last five years' figure would not start to drop for ... [oh please someone else do the arithmetic] ]

So you are not in compliance on the day you return. You cannot return to compliance until you have stayed in Canada enough days until you've been out of Canada LESS than 1095 days in the most recent five years. We no longer need to keep the landing date in the calc, you're only looking at the most recent five years. That's a simple calc:
1825 days (in last five years) - 1095 (days outside Canada max) = 730 days in Canada needed to be in compliance. That's the number of days you need to remain. That's two years.*

Oh wait - this is exactly the same result @Besram got and informed you of. For the exact same logic and reasons, any days you had accumulated before you spent 1095+ days outside Canada (using continuous stays in/out of Canada for simplicity) are no longer relevant (they 'drop out of' the residency compliance calculation.

Hope this helps.


*For simplicity I ignore leap years and all that. Anyone that close that it might matter should be extra cautious.

So what you are saying is if I stay more than 1095 days outside of Canada, I am in breach of RO which I already understand but what you are also saying is once I am in breach of RO, even if i have stayed in Canada for some days in the last five years, those will not be counted and I need to stay in Canada for 730 days from the date I come back to meet RO?