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No way to verify the exit dates?

walktheline

Star Member
Oct 28, 2016
86
20
I have EU passport and often travel to EU, so there are no any entry stamps or entry information held by EU countries.
I also ordered my CBSA travel history asking for exit record and the report says exit is only tracked at land borders after 2013, so in my case they have none of my exit record.
Although airlines may have my departure record, from this official article news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1085459, right now government have no way to collect such record before the new legislation is passed.
So am I safe to say IRCC definitely have no way to verify my exit dates and have to solely rely on whatever dates I put on the form?
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
13,187
2,420
The thing here is I guess a question of conscience do you purposely lie on a formal sworn declaration when you know yourself the actual days you were out of the country or do you record the actual days even though you may have to wait a bit longer to qualify ?
 

walktheline

Star Member
Oct 28, 2016
86
20
My point is, will they simply issue RQ because they have no way to verify the exit dates or they just trust whatever dates on the form?
 

ajithpl

Hero Member
Aug 5, 2010
270
11
Surrey, BC
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Don't hide the entry / exit dates even if there is no passport stamps or records with CBSA. Those who had suffered for years by not properly declaring the physical presence will know how important it is.
If by any chance RQ is issued, you can respond with the ticket/ flight details and feel peace of mind. Now a days RQ does not seems to take much delays.
Anyways, it's entirely up to you. Good luck!
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
In the absence of passport stamps, is it safe to say IRCC definitely has no way to verify an applicant's exit dates and must solely rely on whatever dates the applicant declares in the presence calculation form?

Short answer is NO, emphatically NO.

This query, however, warrants a full explanation about why.

The query here is one of those which alludes to some misunderstanding about the process, in large part rooted in underestimating how important the burden of proof is in the decision-making. The burden of proof is on the applicant. In the vast majority of cases, the information in the application suffices, IRCC is satisfied and citizenship is routinely granted. In these cases, IRCC does, indeed, in effect rely on the applicant's declared dates of travel, and in effect infers the applicant was present in Canada between the last reported date of entry and the next reported date of exit.

IRCC has various ways of assessing, or verifying this information. But this is focused on looking for, again in effect, anything which in some way raises a concern or question about the completeness and accuracy of the information submitted by the applicant (and this includes all information submitted by the applicant, not just the travel history).

If IRCC perceives any reason-to-question the applicant's residency or presence, IRCC can require the applicant to submit proof which will verify all the relevant information. IRCC does not attempt to verify the applicant's information once IRCC questions or doubts or has concerns about the applicant's information. It is the applicants burden to verify the information.

If the applicant is subject to the non-routine process and is, thus, a residency case or a presence case, the burden of verification in on the applicant, and if the applicant falls short of meeting that burden, the burden of proving or verifying presence in Canada, IRCC will decline to grant citizenship. If this happens, the applicant gets a chance to prove his or her case to a Citizenship Judge.

It is not the CJ's job, nor IRCC's job, to determine how many days the applicant was present in Canada. It is their job to assess the completeness and accuracy of the applicant's claims about presence. And, if there is any question about the completeness or accuracy of what the applicant claims, it is then the applicant's job to prove how many days the applicant was present. In particular, if the applicant fails to prove actual presence sufficient to establish qualification for the grant of citizenship, it does not matter how many days the applicant was actually present, both IRCC and the CJ are REQUIRED, by law, to deny the grant of citizenship. That is what the burden of proof is about.




The Longer Explanation; the rest of the story, so to key:


walktheline said:
I have EU passport and often travel to EU, so there are no any entry stamps or entry information held by EU countries.
I also ordered my CBSA travel history asking for exit record and the report says exit is only tracked at land borders after 2013, so in my case they have none of my exit record.
Although airlines may have my departure record, from this official article news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1085459, right now government have no way to collect such record before the new legislation is passed.
So am I safe to say IRCC definitely have no way to verify my exit dates and have to solely rely on whatever dates I put on the form?
No, it is not safe to think that IRCC has no way to verify exit dates. No, absolutely, IRCC does not have to solely rely on whatever dates you enter into the form.

The burden of proof is on the applicant. For the vast majority of applicants, the result of IRCC's assessment of all the information and factors and history tends to verify the information submitted by the applicant, and IRCC will infer that the applicant was in Canada between last reported date of entry and the next date of exit.

BUT IRCC is not bound or required to make such an inference.

Many, many things can trigger IRCC's concerns about the completeness and accuracy of the applicant's travel history. Something odd about the applicant's telephone number or residential address. The appearance of what appears to be handwriting from more than one person in the application. An incongruity identified in the identification submitted. Information IRCC finds online, such as in a LinkedIn account. An apparent inconsistency with reported employment history and the applicant's lifestyle. And many, many other things.

Once IRCC has a concern about the completeness or accuracy of reported travel dates, the process tends to go into the RQ or residency case non-routine process, and IRCC then tends to be more thorough and sometimes skeptical in its assessment of the applicant's submissions.

Once issued RQ, for example, the applicant needs to directly document actual residency in Canada, and in large part do so for each and every month the applicant claimed to be in Canada, regardless of the reported and documented dates of exit and entry. Even though the qualifying requirement is physical presence, strong evidence of residency tends to corroborate presence, and the absence of proof of residency for a given month tends to suggest the applicant may have been outside Canada that month.

For any time period IRCC perceives the applicant may have been outside Canada, IRCC is likely to require stronger proof of residence and presence for that time period. Again, this is despite reported travel dates.

So, no, it is not safe to think that IRCC has no way to verify exit dates. So, no, absolutely, IRCC does not have to solely rely on whatever dates you enter into the form.

The only safe way to approach reporting travel history is to be sure to completely and accurately report each and every date of exit (even day trips) and entry. Period.






An observation about the decision-making approach generally:

Sure, many qualified and ultimately successful applicants make mistakes in the residency calculation (older applications) or presence calculation (applications since June 11, 2015), including omissions. Anything larger than a minimal discrepancy, however, is a definite trigger for elevated scrutiny and potential skepticism. Sure, this is dependent on IRCC identifying the discrepancy . . . OR, identifying some other reason-to-question the applicant's residency or presence.

That is, the overriding difference, between those applicants for whom IRCC will essentially make a decision based on the applicant's accounting of days present in Canada, versus those applicants who are at high risk for facing non-routine processing and who, perhaps, will be challenged to more thoroughly and objectively prove days present, is whether or not IRCC perceives some other reason-to-question the applicant's residency or presence. The criteria IRCC employs in screening applicants, for the purpose of identifying whether there is a reason-to-question the applicant's residency or presence, is confidential information, not public information. We know quite a bit about what that criteria likely is, but the last definitive information about this is now four years old (it was from an accidentally disclosed copy of the File Requirements Checklist in 2012), and it is relatively easy to discern certain types of facts or circumstances which still constitute a reason-to-question the applicant's residency or presence, such as any obvious inconsistencies in the applicant's information (inconsistent residential address with location of place of employment; a FOSS note from a PoE event indicating a residential address or employment at odds with the address or work history declared in the application, or any possibility the applicant had or could have had a Travel Document which has not been disclosed and presented to IRCC, among many, many others).

If and when IRCC perceives a reason-to-question the applicant's residency or presence, the applicant can be, and many have been, required to far more thoroughly document their presence in Canada.

So, again, no, it is not safe to think that IRCC has no way to verify exit dates. So, no, absolutely, IRCC does not have to solely rely on whatever dates you enter into the form.

The only safe way to approach reporting travel history is to be sure to completely and accurately report each and every date of exit (even day trips) and entry. Period.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
walktheline said:
My point is, will they simply issue RQ because they have no way to verify the exit dates or they just trust whatever dates on the form?
This is what can be described as a false dichotomy. IRCC's approach is not limited to such an either/or.

Did what I could to describe enough of the decision-making approach above, in my prior post, to illuminate the more important aspects of the process and why it is crucial for applicants to do their very, very best to completely and accurately report all travel dates.

And completely and accurately provide all the other information requested.

Beyond that, the applicant has little control over whether or not RQ will be issued. The more qualified and the more complete and accurate the application, the lower the risk of RQ. But no one can entirely avoid the risk of RQ. Just coincidences (such as in names or addresses, among others) can lead IRCC to have questions and impose RQ.

The comforting news is that these days only a small percentage of qualified applicants face RQ. (In 2012, perhaps as many as one-fourth of qualified applicants were issued RQ.) IRCC appears to have refined the criteria employed and thus the vast majority of qualified applicants will not face RQ.
 

walktheline

Star Member
Oct 28, 2016
86
20
I noticed the chance of RQ has been much lower since the applications after June 2015, I wonder what made that difference? Is it because of the IRCC's ability of checking tax information? Or they gained additional ability of checking exit record (which I don't think so).

Another thing about RQ, I think it's only useful to identify the long absence, but not short trips. Even during my travels, I still have full-time employment and salary as usual.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
walktheline said:
I noticed the chance of RQ has been much lower since the applications after June 2015, I wonder what made that difference? Is it because of the IRCC's ability of checking tax information? Or they gained additional ability of checking exit record (which I don't think so).
The number of new applications submitted undoubtedly dropped dramatically after June 11, 2015. Perhaps to a mere trickle. Since then, sure, the number of new applications is probably growing each month, and by the summer of 2017 should return to norms . . . subject, however, to a sudden surge of new applications after the new 3/5 rule comes into effect, assuming Bill C-6 is adopted. In any event, the dramatic reduction in number of applications could, alone, explain fewer RQ'd cases . . . assuming that fewer reports of RQ in the forums truly reflects fewer RQs being issued.

The change to a fixed, absolute physical presence requirement, can also explain why there would be fewer instances of RQ. Prior to June 11, 2015 applications could be, and many were made based on residency for three years, rather than physical presence. The vast majority of these were issued RQ. After June 11, 2015, only those who meet the physical presence threshold are eligible.


walktheline said:
Another thing about RQ, I think it's only useful to identify the long absence, but not short trips. Even during my travels, I still have full-time employment and salary as usual.
Not sure what your point is. But make no mistake, there are many ways for IRCC to identify if the applicant has failed to accurately report all trips abroad. IRCC will not bother to try identifying all trips in order to, say, recalculate the number of days present versus the number of days absent. Once IRCC identifies any discrepancy in reported travel, any discrepancy outside an allowable margin of error (failing to report a single weekend trip to the U.S., for example, should not, not alone anyway, cause a big problem), that will make it more problematic. The more significant the discrepancy, and in particular anything which tends to compromise IRCC's reliance on the credibility of the applicant, can make it very difficult for the applicant to prove his or her case.

Sure, consistent, continual employment for a job that requires the applicant to work at a location in Canada, for an employer IRCC will readily recognize and can verify, is strong evidence of presence which, if corroborated by all the other information in the application and information accessed by IRCC, tends to prove presence. This can be the strongest evidence an applicant has. But any chinks in the chain could easily unravel such proof.

Once RQ is issued, and this is particularly true in the last two years, the applicant should be aware that IRCC probably has a serious doubt about the completeness and accuracy of the applicant's information (prior to two years ago, a lot of RQs were issued based on technical criteria which was obviously over-broad). That portends problems.


Bottom-line: the only safe approach is to be as complete and accurate in reporting information as possible, and this is especially so for travel dates.

Applicants are now instructed that they can report estimated travel history. And, obviously, any applicant who is the least bit uncertain about how complete and accurate his or her reporting is, should indeed acknowledge this in the application (on a supplemental page) and explain and nonetheless make a concerted effort to otherwise provide as complete and accurate information as possible. Obviously, however, credibility is about accurately reporting facts, and thus the extent to which an applicant is not able to accurately and completely report the facts (such as all dates of exit and entry) reflects compromised credibility.

Other than failing to follow the instructions, perhaps the biggest cause of problems for qualified applicants is rooted in something causing IRCC to doubt the applicant's credibility. It gets very, very difficult to prove one's qualifications for citizenship if one's credibility is significantly compromised. A sure way to compromise one's credibility is for IRCC to find indications that the applicant failed to completely and accurately report all dates of travel.

Gambling that IRCC will not catch omissions in reported travel would be unwise . . . well, frankly, actually it would be downright stupid.
 

Coffee1981

Star Member
Jun 29, 2016
136
11
walktheline said:
So am I safe to say IRCC definitely have no way to verify my exit dates and have to solely rely on whatever dates I put on the form?
IRCC has the power to contact their visa offices overseas and ask them to ask foreign governments to verify data. Be careful. You don't want to throw your money and time away over something silly.
 

Joe Joe

Star Member
Aug 28, 2016
80
5
I doubt that CBSA are accurate, I entered Canada for the first time on Jan, 21,2012 and they stamped it as Jan,15,2012..I just noticed this few days ago
 

links18

Champion Member
Feb 1, 2006
2,009
129
Whatever EU countries you are entering undoubtedly have a procedure for tracking entries from outside the EU. Why don't you make some inquiries and see if you can get those? Will they be complete and totally accurate? Who knows.
 

Medmhn

Star Member
Jun 30, 2017
84
0
47
Toronto
in the application for renew my PR card they asked me to put my travel history

and i forgot the exact dates of my exit from Canada in the last 5 years
i asked the ( Canada border services agency )

about that and they provided me with all my entry dates and told me that no exit recorder were found,
and they said : ( please note that exit information is only recorded for foreign national leaving Canada at land port since June 30th,2013 )

now i am confused what i have to do to know my exit date from Canada in the last 5 years.
and if i put incorrect dates what will happen ?

please i need this information as soon as possible

regards
 

Medmhn

Star Member
Jun 30, 2017
84
0
47
Toronto
in the application for renew my PR card they asked me to put my travel history

and i forgot the exact dates of my exit from Canada in the last 5 years
i asked the ( Canada border services agency )

about that and they provided me with all my entry dates and told me that no exit recorder were found,
and they said : ( please note that exit information is only recorded for foreign national leaving Canada at land port since June 30th,2013 )

now i am confused what i have to do to know my exit date from Canada in the last 5 years.
and if i put incorrect dates what will happen ?

please i need this information as soon as
 

Medmhn

Star Member
Jun 30, 2017
84
0
47
Toronto
in the application for renew my PR card they asked me to put my travel history

and i forgot the exact dates of my exit from Canada in the last 5 years
i asked the ( Canada border services agency )

about that and they provided me with all my entry dates and told me that no exit recorder were found,
and they said : ( please note that exit information is only recorded for foreign national leaving Canada at land port since June 30th,2013 )

now i am confused what i have to do to know my exit date from Canada in the last 5 years.
and if i put incorrect dates what will happen ?

please i need this information as soon as possible

regards
 

Alurra71

VIP Member
Oct 5, 2012
3,238
309
Ontario
Visa Office......
Vegreville
App. Filed.......
07-12-2012
AOR Received.
21-01-2013
Interview........
waived
VISA ISSUED...
28-11-2013
LANDED..........
19-12-2013
in the application for renew my PR card they asked me to put my travel history

and i forgot the exact dates of my exit from Canada in the last 5 years
i asked the ( Canada border services agency )

about that and they provided me with all my entry dates and told me that no exit recorder were found,
and they said : ( please note that exit information is only recorded for foreign national leaving Canada at land port since June 30th,2013 )

now i am confused what i have to do to know my exit date from Canada in the last 5 years.
and if i put incorrect dates what will happen ?

please i need this information as soon as possible

regards
If they have your entry dates you know how long you were gone. Subtraction, my friend. If they hve you entering on May 1 and you know you were gone for 10 days for that trip when you returned, you left on April 21.