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Again...
Which is why I said that it MAY not be helpful.

Call it quibble, but it's just my opinion.

But there is ZERO evidence to say that it won't be helpful. Hence, the comment itself is not very instructive - in my opinion.

The OP/OP's parents absolutely SHOULD mention doctor's advice as something that IRCC/CBSA should (and I believe 'must') take into consideration.
 
But there is ZERO evidence to say that it won't be helpful. Hence, the comment itself is not very instructive - in my opinion.

The OP/OP's parents absolutely SHOULD mention doctor's advice as something that IRCC/CBSA should (and I believe 'must') take into consideration.
Geez...what gives you the impression that I said anything close to "They should not try"?

May not be helpful...May not be helpful...(rinse and repeat ad nauseam), simply because every CBSA officer is different.

FFS!
 
Geez...what gives you the impression that I said anything close to "They should not try"?

May not be helpful...May not be helpful...(rinse and repeat ad nauseam), simply because every CBSA officer is different.

FFS!

FFS indeed.
 
My parents landed as immigrants through my sponsorship in 2018 and they have stayed in Canada for a total of 1 year. Prior to the pandemic, they left for Taiwan in November 2019. The pandemic was declared in the early 2020 and they were not able to return to Canada. Due to my mom's immune compromise, the doctor here advised that it is better they stay in Taiwan until the pandemic is over. Last year, my mother was diagnosed of kidney failure and started the dialysis treatment and they couldn't leave Taiwan due to the kind of dialysis treatment she was receiving. Their PR cards will be expiring this year in July and I would like to know if it is better for them to return to Canada before the cards expire and plea our case during the renewal process or just let the cards expire and later apply for the PRTD and justify at that time why we couldn't fulfill the 730 days requirement. Is there a risk for them to return to Canada before the cards exprie knowing that we did not fulfill the RO? Thanks

Not sure why your parents couldn't travel in 2020 when EVA airlines still operate flight between Canada and Taiwan.
 
she was advised by our doctor to stay in Taiwan until the pandemic is over. My mom is immune compromised so it is for her safety reason.
 
she was advised by our doctor to stay in Taiwan until the pandemic is over. My mom is immune compromised so it is for her safety reason.

No-one can tell you that this will be sufficient to convince CBSA officer. However, it is a real reason and likely they will take it seriously (possibly just waving them through, perhaps with a warning).

If your parents can have some documentation about this with them, it may come in handy. A letter from doctor, for example, about this recommendation and brief summary of the treatment regime. Also mention covid of course as a risk factor.
 
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If your parents can have some documentation about this with them, it may come in handy. A letter from doctor, for example, about this recommendation and brief summary of the treatment regime. Also mention covid of course as a risk factor.

A short note for a bit more info on this: reports from PRs who go through this (arriving out of compliance and extent of questioning) vary in quality, i.e. we don't have that much info, just sporadic reports. But overall, the questioning at border can take some time, but is perhaps not extremely detailed - not a lot of formal document review, for example. To summarize, it is probably mostly about credibility - are the reasons plausible, do they make sense, do the facts 'hold together' (with no obvious holes), are answers to follow-up questions easily (truthfully/credibly) answered, etc. And do the PRs appear to be 'returning to Canada' to stay - intent.

Nonetheless, it will help to prepare somewhat. This does not mean preparing a Dostoyevskian litany of everything that happened. CBSA officers don't want the tragic novel version. Just take some time to get organized, with a list of the (brief) facts about things that prevented from returning. Or that made it seem risky. It may not be necessary, but having a small folder with some basic documentation that backs up the claims you're making can help (CBSA officers will likely not examine in detail, but they may glance at the stuff - or they may not even look at it, but take the fact you have documentation as additional factor in assessing credibility).

Tell them the basics. Don't embellish. Keep it brief. Answer their questions - briefly. Don't volunteer too much or go into a lot of detail - just answer their questions, mostly. (Obviously explain context where absolutely necessary).

And note the procedure: IF they decide to formally 'report' your parents, one officer will prepare a report, and another will come to confirm (or possibly set aside). But the main thing is, even if this report is issued, your parents will be let in to Canada, where they can live and work, and they can appeal the report (if not appealed, or appeal is lost, PR status will be revoked). It is likely only at the appeal that more detailed points with documentation will be looked at it in detail.
 
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A short note for a bit more info on this: reports from PRs who go through this (arriving out of compliance and extent of questioning) vary in quality, i.e. we don't have that much info, just sporadic reports. But overall, the questioning at border can take some time, but is perhaps not extremely detailed - not a lot of formal document review, for example. To summarize, it is probably mostly about credibility - are the reasons plausible, do they make sense, do the facts 'hold together' (with no obvious holes), are answers to follow-up questions easily (truthfully/credibly) answered, etc. And do the PRs appear to be 'returning to Canada' to stay - intent.

Nonetheless, it will help to prepare somewhat. This does not mean preparing a Dostoyevskian litany of everything that happened. CBSA officers don't want the tragic novel version. Just take some time to get organized, with a list of the (brief) facts about things that prevented from returning. Or that made it seem risky. It may not be necessary, but having a small folder with some basic documentation that backs up the claims you're making can help (CBSA officers will likely not examine in detail, but they may glance at the stuff - or they may not even look at it, but take the fact you have documentation as additional factor in assessing credibility).

Tell them the basics. Don't embellish. Keep it brief. Answer their questions - briefly. Don't volunteer too much or go into a lot of detail - just answer their questions, mostly. (Obviously explain context where absolutely necessary).

And note the procedure: IF they decide to formally 'report' your parents, one officer will prepare a report, and another will come to confirm (or possibly set aside). But the main thing is, even if this report is issued, your parents will be let in to Canada, where they can live and work, and they can appeal the report (if not appealed, or appeal is lost, PR status will be revoked). It is likely only at the appeal that more detailed points with documentation will be looked at it in detail.
Thank you so much for the response, it is very helpful
 
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My parents landed as immigrants through my sponsorship in 2018 and they have stayed in Canada for a total of 1 year. . . . Their PR cards will be expiring this year in July and I would like to know if it is better for them to return to Canada before the cards expire and plea our case during the renewal process or just let the cards expire and later apply for the PRTD and justify at that time why we couldn't fulfill the 730 days requirement. Is there a risk for them to return to Canada before the cards exprie knowing that we did not fulfill the RO? Thanks

The differences about distinctions and the differences those distinctions make aside (will address this in separate post) . . .

The response by @YVR123 covered what you really need to know.

I think it's better to have doctor's letter and the record of her treatments ready. Then travel back before their PR cards expire this year.
Hopefully, they can come back without being reported.

And that includes a prognosis that is about as close to a reliable prognosis anyone can reliably get (as in no more than alluding to the hopeful outcome of not being reported).

Just to be clear, I will offer an expanded version of the gist of what @YVR123 commented (with apologies for what more I add and read into it); best prospect of saving PR status will be:
(1) return to Canada BEFORE their PR cards expire (the sooner the better), and do this TO STAY, and​
(2) be prepared to explain reasons for not returning to Canada sooner, and carry, IN-hand (not in baggage), documentation that supports the explanations (including doctor's letter and some records of treatment, but not a lot -- see last post by @armoured about preparing for PoE examination)​
(3) if allowed to enter Canada without being subject to an Inadmissibility Report, stay, establish long-term residence, and do not leave again and do not apply for new PR card UNTIL they have been IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years (as of the date the PR card application is made)​
(4) if they are subject to an Inadmissibility Report, which means a 44(1) Report is prepared:​
-- if that Report is set aside by the second officer reviewing it (here too see relevant comments in post by @armoured), it is not so imperative to stay 730 days before making a PR card application, but better to get established and stay here for awhile before making the PR card application​
-- if the Report is followed by the issuance of a Removal/Departure Order, they can still enter Canada but will need to appeal if they hope to keep PR status; if this happens, best to obtain professional legal assistance, as in a good lawyer​

We are not going the HC route, we will return before the PR cards expire and stay in Canada for 730 days after returning before applying for renewal.

I concur in what @Ponga responded. I will add, for emphasis, that absent H&C relief they meet the definition of inadmissible. Now. They have been outside Canada more than 1095 days since landing, so have NO WAY of meeting the obligation to be in Canada at least 730 days during their first five years after becoming PRs. So they are IN BREACH of the RO now, which again meets the definition of inadmissibility. To keep their PR status they are relying on either the leniency of PoE officials to waive them through the PoE, which is more or less an informal exercise of H&C relief (mostly afforded PRs only a little in breach, somewhat expanded for PRs still in their first five years). But as @Ponga addressed, if border officials formally question RO compliance, saving their PR status will depend on there being sufficient H&C reasons for allowing them to keep status DESPITE the breach. And in a PR TD application (if they fail to return before their PR cards expire), whether H&C relief is allowed will determine the outcome.


.
 
Some Observations About H&C Factors and Reasons For Not Returning Sooner (getting into the differences about distinctions and the differences those distinctions make):

The rest of my comments, below, are only tangentially about the query posed by @daniel_wslim (so, you may want to skip this).

H&C cases are tricky, risky, and the probabilities are impossible to definitively quantify, and near impossible to quantify any more precisely than in very broad terms. For example, the more in breach, the bigger the risk, meaning the bigger the odds there will be an Inadmissibility Report that is followed by a Removal Order. Corollary: the sooner the PR actually returns to Canada, the better their odds of keeping status. That's about as precise anyone can reliably say.

For purposes of presenting the H&C case in the course of a Port-of-Entry examination, the previous post by @armoured covers it. I would add with emphasis, BE HONEST. The PR in breach should be prepared to honestly explain, in their own way, their own words, as simply as possible, the reasons why they did not return to Canada sooner, and prepared, IF ASKED, to back that up with some details, some corroborating documentation (again, not a lot). If more than that is needed, well, odds are that's a case likely to end up in an appeal and the best approach then is to have a reputable, experienced immigration lawyer help.

Leading to the differences about distinctions, in H&C reasons, and the difference those distinctions can make:

The most illuminating aspect of the back-and-forth above, between @Ponga and @armoured, regarding the extent to which particular factors will have influence in whether the PR in breach is allowed H&C relief, is that it illustrates the lack of consensus here about how much weight this or that H&C factor will have, and is an example of ongoing disagreements about how persuasive particular factors can be (like Covid interfering with a return to Canada), and even whether such factors carry any significantly positive weight at all. That discussion is worth some attention if for no other reason than it represents how variable and uncertain the H&C case is, recognizing that how much we do not know (in regards to enforcement practices) has a lot to do with this.

That said, most factors, even the Covid-related explanations for failing to come to Canada sooner, can be somewhat assessed, even if imprecisely, as to their probable influence, at least in broad terms, in both directions.

For example, it appears that one of the things @armoured was conveying is that the impact Covid has had in explaining a particular PR's reasons for not returning to Canada, as addressed in a doctor's letter, is indeed a real and significant factor that can and quite likely will have positive influence in the PR's favour. As they both discuss, in somewhat different ways, with somewhat diverging estimates, nonetheless the particular details in the individual case matter, and so how much a particular factor "helps" or "may not be of much help," will vary, and can vary considerably, and often is (if not usually is) rather difficult to forecast, if not near impossible to quantify in anything other than very broad terms . . . like it should "help" or "may not be of much help." And as that back-and-forth illustrates, even in regards to such imprecise (actually rather vague) terms, there are diverging if not outright contrary views. We are not guessing, as there's quite a lot of information to go on, but there's a lot we do not know so at best we can discern enough to roughly estimate in broad terms.

It warrants remembering with some emphasis that in assessing H&C factors ANY reason the PR proffers MUST be considered. And if I understand @armoured's approach, I agree that documentation a doctor recommended against travel, or recommended delaying travel, based on the PR's personal vulnerabilities, is a factor that will help in making the H&C case, and perhaps it would be fair to say this would be a factor that MUST be given significant positive H&C weight . . . at least in the abstract, in regards to the weight of a H&C case generally.

But the differences in their respective views about the likely influence of a doctor's letter is more about how much influence it would have, the quantification side of the equation:
A lot? Quite a bit? Just some? A little? Not much? Hardly at all?

And as @Ponga emphasized, this will vary considerably depending on other particular details.

Which is where an important distinction appears to have been overlooked. Note, context matters.

Being advised by a doctor to NOT travel, may not be of much help if your parents need to use H&C reasons when applying for their renewed PR Cards.

I agree. Noting the context.

On one hand I agree with the view that the doctor's advice will significantly help make the H&C case, generally, but yet here I am saying I agree with "it may not be of much help." Huh?

Context: "when applying for . . . renewed PR cards."

Explanation: Not much help here, in this context, because there are so many other factors that can and are likely to loom much larger. In addition to the total numbers themselves, usually the biggest factor, how long the PRs have been staying in Canada, and the extent to which it is clear they have established long-term residence in Canada, BEFORE making the PR card applications, are factors which will loom far larger and have more influence in a PR card application relying on H&C relief. What is the decision-making at stake here? This is not about betting parlour odds, about placing bets for money. This is about whether or not to make an application for a new PR card relying on H&C relief OR to WAIT until in RO compliance BEFORE making the application. In this context, the weight of a doctor's letter does not come anywhere near close to tipping the scales in the direction of making the application rather than waiting.

Other Contexts: The decision-making at stake in other contexts is less about whether to make an application (either an application to enter Canada by arriving at a PoE, or an application for a PR TD), and much more about how to best prepare for making the application. As discussed above, and @armoured went into some detail regarding this, it should indeed be of significant (perhaps much) help if the PR is prepared to explain why the PR did not travel to Canada sooner and to present a doctor's letter supporting that, at least in part, for the PoE examination upon their arrival in Canada.


Additional Distinctions of Import:

I have recently discussed, in another topic, a significant if not important distinction in the discussion of H&C factors, highlighting the difference between what is "acceptable" as a H&C factor, or as evidence of a H&C reason, versus what is "sufficient" to establish that H&C relief should be allowed. A doctor's letter recommending a delay in travel must be accepted as evidence showing a H&C reason for not coming to Canada sooner, as long as there is no reason to doubt its authenticity. What is sufficient to get H&C relief is a different and much bigger and more complicated matter, and other factors will have a great deal of influence.

Another distinction worth keeping in mind is that many factors are not readily categorized in on-or-off terms. Officials making H&C assessments are necessarily engaged in exercising more than a little discretionary judgment, not exactly subjective but nonetheless imbued with personal perspective, and this includes weighing evidence of reasons discouraging travel short of precluding travel. There is a big difference between circumstances that mean a PR cannot travel versus those circumstances in which it is not advisable or prudent to travel, and the latter can vary widely. If a country imposes a travel ban, that precludes travel, and that will ordinarily carry a lot of weight as a positive H&C factor. In contrast, factors making it difficult or risky to travel, even though travel is still possible, will generally carry significant positive H&C weight, but how much so will depend on the particulars, balanced against other factors. And the other factors includes, big time, the numbers.

Bringing this to Covid. And common sense. There was perhaps a period of time during which Covid was giving many PRs in breach what almost amounted to a free pass (depending on things like whether the PR was already in breach, or near breach, before Covid even started). But there is no suggestion that Covid continues to have as much influence now as it appeared to have a year and two ago, and those PRs in breach and still outside Canada, for them Covid will almost certainly decline in weight, as a H&C factor, the longer they remain abroad.
 
Being advised by a doctor to NOT travel, may not be of much help if your parents need to use H&C reasons when applying for their renewed PR Cards.
...
I agree. Noting the context.

I must issue a mea culpa for misapprehension of @Ponga 's original statement. Ponga's post did clarify that the comment was 'use of H&C reasons when applying for renewed PR cards.'

I had understood that, in the context of further discussion or possibly another thread, this was about the examination at port of entry.

I fully concur with the point that it may or may not be of any help at all when applying for a PR card on an H&C basis (which I think we might say is, in practice, a rather exceptional thing - as opposed to entering at a POE and getting leniency, whether formally H&C or not). I jumped over that because of misunderstanding, and also - in my defence - that basically one should never apply for a PR card on H&C basis (except where especially warranted such as having a PRTD coded for H&C). I should have twigged to that - where the difference is not because the 'doctor's advice' is not a good reason (the point I was making) but that those waved through on leniency basis should simply not apply for cards on that basis and should wait.

Still my mistake though. I apologize. I stand by my point in the context of POE examination (and likely on appeal if needed), but that is a completely different matter - that has a different conclusion because the context is completely different.
 
Doctor's letter and all medical record in hand of course...I just came back from SFO to YVR, I had done ArriveCan online ( I was not asked to put the code I got from the webapp), put PR card in machine, and get a ticket. Show ticket to CBSA personal at the exit...several of they stood there, gave a look at the ticket. I was asked only one question: where are you from? I answered: San Francisco. And was let go.
I don't know if the machine will detect RO, I guess not.
And I will say that it's a good idea if your parents could spend several days in the states, then fly back. It's very easy to make the states a short time vacation destination, right? This could make your parents' entry much smooth...they did take a short vacation in the states, right? Be honest, man! ...My two cents.
And if no stop from CBSA, your parents should have to be in Canada more than 731 or 732 days at least to submit renewal application. I double checked, there is no 730 days. There is only less than 1095 days outside Canada. But, you add up any continuous 5 years, there always a year has 366 days, and in very unfortunate case, there could be two of this kind of year....so bad...
 
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Doctor's letter and all medical record in hand of course...I just came back from SFO to YVR, I had done ArriveCan online ( I was not asked to put the code I got from the webapp), put PR card in machine, and get a ticket. Show ticket to CBSA personal at the exit...several of they stood there, gave a look at the ticket. I was asked only one question: where are you from? I answered: San Francisco. And was let go.
I don't know if the machine will detect RO, I guess not.
And I will say that it's a good idea if your parents could spend several days in the states, then fly back. It's very easy to make the states a short time vacation destination, right? This could make your parents' entry much smooth...they did take a short vacation in the states, right? Be honest, man! ...My two cents.
And if no stop from CBSA, your parents should have to be in Canada more than 731 or 732 days at least to submit renewal application. I double checked, there is no 730 days. There is only less than 1095 days outside Canada. But, you add up any continuous 5 years, there always a year has 366 days, and in very unfortunate case, there could be two of this kind of year....so bad...
Your situation is different though, correct? You have a valid PR Card, which is probably why CBSA didn't send you to Secondary.

Surprised to read (in one of your other posts) that the airline did not ask to see your PR Card to board the flight from SFO.
 
I must issue a mea culpa for misapprehension of @Ponga 's original statement. Ponga's post did clarify that the comment was 'use of H&C reasons when applying for renewed PR cards.'

I had understood that, in the context of further discussion or possibly another thread, this was about the examination at port of entry.

I fully concur with the point that it may or may not be of any help at all when applying for a PR card on an H&C basis (which I think we might say is, in practice, a rather exceptional thing - as opposed to entering at a POE and getting leniency, whether formally H&C or not). I jumped over that because of misunderstanding, and also - in my defence - that basically one should never apply for a PR card on H&C basis (except where especially warranted such as having a PRTD coded for H&C). I should have twigged to that - where the difference is not because the 'doctor's advice' is not a good reason (the point I was making) but that those waved through on leniency basis should simply not apply for cards on that basis and should wait.

Still my mistake though. I apologize. I stand by my point in the context of POE examination (and likely on appeal if needed), but that is a completely different matter - that has a different conclusion because the context is completely different.
No worries. I always appreciate the `back and forth' with such a helpful and knowledgeable member. :)
 
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