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My expriences so far ... first two days in Toronto!!!

Bargeld

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pritishah1180 said:
Hello Everyone,

We r couple and going to land in august. Can anyone suggest a city or town around Toronto where we can find Indians, favourable weather, can find easily house for rent, job etc etc
Brampton, Ontario, lots of immigrants go to that city, like you, because people from India are there, although I'm not sure what you think of as "favourable" weather. Some people find the climate out east just fine, I prefer a dry climate like that found in southern Alberta.

As for the discussion about racism, I would urge hagbard85 to keep posting the way they are, it's just fine, and virtually no one believes that his post was racist.. I find he has enough logic to deduce this on his own though. It's funny that when discussing cultures it's okay for some to bash living crap out of Canadians but when you make a comparison to Europeans adjusting to Canada it easier (which may or may not be true) suddenly "dat's racist!". Hypocrisy seems to go hand in hand with excessive sensitivity.
 

pritishah1180

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Hello BERGELD,

Thanks for reply, what abt Etobicoke? is it good ?

BRAMPTON or ETOBICOKE which will be suitable for job and settlement?
 

torontosm

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pritishah1180 said:
Hello BERGELD,

Thanks for reply, what abt Etobicoke? is it good ?

BRAMPTON or ETOBICOKE which will be suitable for job and settlement?
Etobicoke is much more diverse than Brampton. A lot will depend on which part of the city you will be working in (e.g., Mississauga vs. downtown) as traffic has become a nightmare in Toronto and it is better to be in close proximity to your office. But, regardless, both Brampton and Etobicoke are large and have neighborhoods that cater to different requierments, budgets, etc. so I'm sure you will find something to your liking.
 

toby

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trainspotting said:
How is that not racist, and how is that constructive?

It is racist because it implies that the fact that she is European somehow means that she ought to have successfully integrated or adapted to Canadian culture, whatever that is.

This is not racism. Racism is the belief that " racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" (Merriam Webster). If the poster meant that adaptation to Canada should have been easier for the European due to racial superiority, then that would be racist. But I do not get that from the original post, and you have not adduced any evidence or argument to make the charge of racism stick.

But to restrict ourselves to a debate over what constitutes racism is silly. The real point, the one worth discussing, is this: do Europeans have behavioural habits (whether they derive from race or culture doesn't matter) that make it easier for them to adapt to Canada than other races / cultures?

I think the answer is yes. European behavioural norms are more similar to Canadian ones than is true of -- for example -- Latin behaviours. Take one example of many. Canadians value punctuality (or say they do, at any rate); if you are invited to a party, you are expected to show up more or less on time. Same is true in France and England (to mention only two European cultures). But some Latin American cultures don't value punctuality equally. In Costa Rica for example it is considered OK to show up to a party several hours late, or even the next day. So, on this matter of punctuality the Latino would have more to adapt to than the European.

To say that European habits are more in sync with Canadian habits -- and therefore adaptation may be easier for Europeans -- may be correct, or wrong, but the observation is not racist.




I don't know from what warped perspective you are looking at this -- but the truth is probably that immigrants of all strips and colors are discriminated against on a systemic albeit non-de jure basis, to varying degrees. For someone to then pass a quick one-liner judgment on her lengthy personal experience as detailed in these 30 plus pages, and then to attempt to belittle it in a summary fashion, is just plain wrong.

I would agree with you that to dismiss someone's argument in summary fashion would be wrong. Indeed, isn't that what you are doing by using dismissive phrases like " I don't know from what warped perspective ...."? Can you not make your points without resorting to sophomoric insults?

Draw the line however you want, but I would urge you to think and reflect carefully, because it is precisely that type of mentality (i.e., the mentality that "The burden of adaptation is on the immigrant" no matter how unjust and unfair the playing field is) that leads to unfair treatment and exclusion of immigrants.

If the playing field is unjust, then yes, the burden to adapt seems unfair. But defining "unjust" is the crux of the matter, and difficult to do to everyone's satisfaction.

In considering what is just and unjust in Canada's welcoming of immigrants, let's consider what is a reasonable expectation that immigrants will adapt somewhat to Canada. In asking to come to a new country, is the immigrant responsible to make an effort to adapt to some extent? If not, if the immigrant wants Canada to change substantially, to make Canada much like the home country, then why not just stay in the old country?

As an old University prof once told me, an ounce of illustration is worth a pound of talky talk. Example: a Chinese doctor with two years of medical education beyond high school (they are referred to as "barefoot doctors" in China) comes to Canada, and finds he can get only a job as a nurse or taxi driver, not doctor. Should Canada change and accept him a a doctor? Do you really want him treating your burst appendix? Or should he adapt by upgrading his medical qualifications to meet Canadian requirements? If I am a patient, I vote for the latter.


What is your view -- without the supercilious tone if you can manage it?



The issue is not one of immigrants asking for favorable treatment or even equal treatment -- rather, it is one of immigrants asking for a minimum level of decency in treatment.
If you can't see that or empathize with that, so be it. But don't discount the personal struggles and experiences of others, because the pain is very real. No one -- certainly not I -- is discounting the difficulties faced by immigrants. If you think I was, show me where.
 

trainspotting

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Jul 8, 2012
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@ Toby

You are asking for my views?

I have already stated my views on the matter.

It is clear that we disagree -- so what more is there to discuss?

And no, constructing half-baked examples that are designed to reach the conclusions you want does not necessarily mean that your conclusions are correct or sound. Since your anecdotal example brings up the subject -- are you even aware that foreign doctors are made to go through accreditation processes that are much tougher than what the Canadian medical school graduates have to go through? Similarly, in the context of lawyers, foreigner lawyers (from the U.S., U.K. and other countries) are made to go through an additional layer of accreditation process that is well beyond what is needed to demonstrate competency and that is far beyond what the locals have to go through? And what if your example is changed so that the person is trained and educated in a jurisdiction where the profession is more advanced than that in Canada? Would be it be fair require such a person to go through additional hurdles that are unreasonable in magnitude? To what extent can additional hurdles be imposed?

Look, no one is denying that the immigrant has the responsibility to make additional efforts to adjust and adapt -- because the existence of a bigger hurdle flows naturally and necessarily from immigrating. The issue is not one of immigrants asking for a favorable playing field or even a level playing field. One can readily concede and agree that it may not be necessarily unfair for immigrants to face a bigger hurdle -- but the real issue is how much bigger -- and that is a matter of degrees.

And I am saying that the deck is not just stacked slightly or moderately against the immigrants -- it is stacked significantly against the immigrants -- to the point of being unfair, unreasonable and exclusionary. That is the real issue. And it is a real problem. There exists a very big disconnect in the Canadian marketplace as far as the highly educated immigrants are concerned. Things simply do not matched up -- they are not even close to remotely matching up. How else can you explain PhDs from the U.S. or U.K. doing janitorial jobs or working as security guards on night shifts for years on end?

At a certain point, one has got to acknowledge that the issue of an uneven playing field is no longer a matter of necessity or natural consequence flowing from the act of immigrating -- it is so uneven that it becomes a matter of bad faith and exclusion.

If you can't see that and instead choose to resort to using an attack-the-strawman strategy, so be it. Again, it is clear that we disagree. No one is saying that we need to agree.

But if you want to argue, then read what was already clearly stated carefully, and then argue fairly.
 

toby

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Trainspotting:

I did not realize that immigrant professionals were subjected to more-rigorous accreditation processes than Canadian professionals are. If this is true, then I see your point that Canada is discriminatory. Naturally I'd like to verify this on my own, so I ask you for your sources.

On your point about "straw man" arguments, I don't follow you. The example of a doctor from China is a real example, not a "straw man" concocted just to prove my point. If you Google "barefoot doctors China", you'll see what I mean. Requiring them to pass NORMAL Canadian medical-qualification exams makes good sense to me. But (again), requiring them to pass tougher exams is not fair.

Having said all this, let's return to your original charge of racism against the poster who mentioned that Europeans should have an easier time adapting to Canadian norms than people from other less-similar cultures would. Even if you are right that about discriminatory professional qualifications (yet to be decided until I research your sources on my own), that doesn't mean that it is racist to observe that immigrants from similar cultures should adapt to Canada more easily than those from quite-different cultures. This just makes a priori good sense.

In asking for your views, I was giving you a chance to adjust, not just get stuck in your original opinion, as if your first thought were your last thought. Debaters try to make their original position a winning one, no matter what the other side says. Debating is usually a waste of time.
In discussion, on the other hand, there is no shame in listening to what the other side says, maybe even adjusting one's opinion in the process.
 

trainspotting

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Jul 8, 2012
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@ Toby

You have got to be kidding me....

You have no clue about the infamous hurdles imposed on professional immigrants?

It is common knowledge that these professionals are made to go through additional layers of accreditation processes that are way beyond what locals have to go through, in addition to having to go through the standard licensing exams together with the locals.

How is that fair? As I have stated already, it is all a matter of extent.

And you are asking for my sources? Why don't you do your own homework. These things are in the public domain. You should make sure that you are informed accordingly vis-a-vis both sides of the picture, before jumping to conclusions and coming out to claim that the playing field is fair.

If you have the audacity to call yourself an immigrant, at least try to be objective about the unfairness other immigrants face even if you lack empathy towards them.

I don't know what parallel universe or planet you are on, but seriously, get a clue.
 

hagbard85

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I am a foreign-trained engineer, currently obtaining Canadian accreditation. I have not found any of the "infamous" barriers or hurdles mentioned by the above poster. Only the normal examinations required to satisfy the regulatory body that I have in fact the training and experience I am claiming. I would not want it differently -- it would worry me if everyone calling themselves engineer, physician, dentist, etc., is allowed to work here without proper verification of education and experience.
 

kingkong1

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May 18, 2013
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hagbard85 said:
I am a foreign-trained engineer, currently obtaining Canadian accreditation. I have not found any of the "infamous" barriers or hurdles mentioned by the above poster. Only the normal examinations required to satisfy the regulatory body that I have in fact the training and experience I am claiming. I would not want it differently -- it would worry if everyone calling themselves engineer, physician, dentist, etc., is allowed to work here without proper verification of education and experience.
If you at least obtained Canadian accreditation (or whatever you call it anyways) and got a job in your field, we'll take you seriously then. Right now, you are just one of the millions of immigrants who are either unemployed or scraping by with minimum wage jobs.
 

hagbard85

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Kingkong1,

I have obtained my PEng from one province already, and going through the process of applying in another province. Currently working for a company earning 6 figures. A MSc and a PhD from the U.S. However, the start was not easy, and I don't blame the system. Accreditation requires patience, lots of time and hard work.

True, I was one of those "millions of immigrants earning low wages". I feel proud of my origins, and I am still an immigrant. Who are you, so I can take you seriously?
 

kingkong1

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May 18, 2013
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hagbard85 said:
Kingkong1,

I have obtained my PEng from one province already, and going through the process of applying in another province. Currently working for a company earning 6 figures. A MSc and a PhD from the U.S. However, the start was not easy, and I don't blame the system. Accreditation requires patience, lots of time and hard work.

True, I was one of those "millions of immigrants earning low wages". I feel proud of my origins, and I am still an immigrant. Who are you, so I can take you seriously?
Good for you. Are you a Mexican? What's the point of getting another PEng when you have a good job as you claim? You are trying to sound like an old immigrant who has gone through a lot when in fact you've just become a PR. What made it take so long? Almost two yrs? Most people with good jobs get their PR in several months. I got it in less than a yr. And what's up with QSW? Couldn't even get PR through FSW with an Engineering PhD? Raises a lot of questions, man. Anyway, good luck with your second Peng.
 

hagbard85

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Kingkong1,

Really? Those are your questions? You did not answer mine: who are you, so I can take you seriously?
 

toby

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hagbard85 said:
Kingkong1,

Really? Those are your questions? You did not answer mine: who are you, so I can take you seriously?
There comes a point where it is futile to spend time trying to have an intelligent discussion, where the other person in the discussion resorts to taunts and jeers in place of reason and facts. After his latest outburst, Kingkong1 seems such a person. I'd suggest ignoring hm from now on.
 

toby

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trainspotting said:
@ Toby

You have got to be kidding me....

You have no clue about the infamous hurdles imposed on professional immigrants?

Apparently you don't have a clue either. I ask you to prove these "infamous hurdles". I have not found any, and yes, I have looked. So I thought you might have access to different facts than I, and could point the way. But apparently not; you prefer to evade the question, adopting the smokescreen often used by the under-informed, trying to put the onus on me to prove or disprove your point.

Perhaps it is just too embarrassing for you to admit that you have been ranting and raving with no facts to back you up, just the usual whining by those who find it hard going in Canada. Easier to blame the system than finding fault in yourself, isn't it?

The only facts we have heard in this discussion have not come from you, but from the engineer who -- from his personal experience -- says you are wrong in alleging unfair qualification standards.


It is common knowledge that these professionals are made to go through additional layers of accreditation processes that are way beyond what locals have to go through, in addition to having to go through the standard licensing exams together with the locals.

How is that fair? As I have stated already, it is all a matter of extent.

And you are asking for my sources? Why don't you do your own homework. These things are in the public domain. You should make sure that you are informed accordingly vis-a-vis both sides of the picture, before jumping to conclusions and coming out to claim that the playing field is fair.

If you have the audacity to call yourself an immigrant, at least try to be objective about the unfairness other immigrants face even if you lack empathy towards them. Circular argument: you allege discrimination, fail to prove it, then conclude that discrimination exists and if I don't see it it is my flaw. I am guessing you did not graduate from High School, or if you did you missed the logic classes.


I don't know what parallel universe or planet you are on, but seriously, get a clue.

Now you're just being silly. Taunts do not replace argument; they are the refuge of the over-matched, mere smokescreens to hide your lack of facts and inability to handle intelligent discussion. It is now clear that spending more time in discussion with you will be a waste of time. I won't return to this thread, so go ahead and have the last word, a small consolation for a small mind.
 

trainspotting

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Jul 8, 2012
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@ Toby

That was pretty funny. You just made me laughed so hard that I spilled my coffee.

Sure, carry on deluding yourself that it is all nice and dandy.

But please leave me out.