More than 3 years out of canada- Residency status, renew PR

[kazemiakk]

Yeah.

The more difficult part is returning to Canada without being reported, especially if you are returning just before your PR card expires after an extended absence.

Moreover, at the time of applying for the PR card it will be obvious that you were abroad for a period of time which constituted a breach of the PR Residency Obligation. While being in Canada long enough to be in compliance (if not reported and able to stay two full years) effectively cures that breach, it is not as if that history disappears. Obviously, it is more or less likely an officer will take note of the history and correspondingly elevate the degree of scrutiny employed, which may include examining FOSS notes from PoE transactions and comparing them to CBSA travel history records, to determine if there had been any misrepresentations made in the process of seeking entry into Canada (such as misrepresenting length of absence to a PoE officer upon arrival in Canada).

Bottom-line: not returning to Canada until 2019 has significant risks.

I may come back in fall 2017 or spring 2018 which may breach RO for around 9 month. Do you think it still has high risks?

Also, I read in the forum and based on their experiences the automated kiosk can not detect the minimum stay. In other words, it doesn't indicate that I was out of the country for more than 3 years. Is that right?

 

[dpenabill]

I may come back in fall 2017 or spring 2018 which may breach RO for around 9 month. Do you think it still has high risks?

Also, I read in the forum and based on their experiences the automated kiosk can not detect the minimum stay. In other words, it doesn't indicate that I was out of the country for more than 3 years. Is that right?

For a PR in breach of the PR but who presents a currently valid PR card, and who was last in Canada within the year, or perhaps even within the last two years, I cannot quantify the risk of being reported at the PoE. I would be skeptical of anyone who claims they can. Especially during the first five years after landing, when screening of returning PRs can be quite relaxed.

But being in breach of the PR risks being reported. That is one of the few for-sure things that can be said.

The bigger (longer) the breach, the greater the risk. The longer the PR has been outside Canada, the more likely a PoE officer may have concerns leading to questions related to PR Residency Obligations.

The more frequent and regular the PR has been in Canada, and the more recent, tends to indicate lower risks. But nonetheless, being in breach definitely risks losing PR status . . . and almost all indications are in the direction of increased scrutiny and increased enforcement.

The automated kiosk probably does not automatically trigger a non-routine re-entry (referral to secondary examination), for a PR based on cumulative absences. But of course all travelers flying into Canada must complete the Customs Declaration card, pursuant to which a PR is obligated to disclose how long the PR has been outside Canada. Disclosing an extended absence in that may trigger a referral to a secondary examination where PR RO related questions can be asked. And of course, it is never a good idea to make a false declaration in writing (such as understating length of absence in a Customs Declaration) . . . particularly for a PR intending to make a cutting-it-close PR card application shortly after being back in Canada barely two years plus a bit, since again the history including the absence for a time constituting a breach of the PR RO will be readily observed in the PR's address, activity (work or school), and travel history, as well as in the government's CBSA travel history. Which is to recognize, for such a PR, there is a significant risk of Secondary Review and potential scrutiny digging into the PR's past CBSA and CIC and IRCC transactions, including digging up some records derived from PoE transactions.


Remember: just cutting-it-close can be risky. I may not have made that observation in this particular topic, but it is one I have made often in this forum. This risk tends to be overlooked or ignored by many, particularly more than a few who eventually are among those reporting anecdotal experiences about suffering the travails of Secondary Review when attempting to obtain a new PR card.

The purpose of PR status is so that individuals can settle and live in Canada permanently. There is no explicit requirement that PRs must be settled in Canada permanently, so long as they meet the PR RO, but only a fool will ignore how-it-looks for those who are attempting to obtain a new PR card but who do not appear to be fully settled and living in Canada permanently; and similarly, only a fool will ignore how-it-looks for those whose history suggests gaming or abusing the system, let alone any suggestion of misrepresentations made along the way.

Let us be frank: many push the envelope, more than a few by a lot. Among these PRs, there are those who successfully keep PR status, and those who do not. How much a particular PR compromises other aspects of life or career in order to for-sure preserve PR status is a personal choice, and the individual's personal priorities play a big role in that personal decision-making process. Likewise, how much one gambles is very much a personal choice based on the individual's priorities and the vagaries of the situation.

What is a bad gamble, more so now than in the recent past, and probably even more so going forward, and a lot more than prior to 2010/2012 (when the Harper government implemented policies and practices to interdict and crack down on residency related fraud) is giving false or misleading information, including by omission, to either CBSA (such as in PoE encounters) or IRCC.

 

[Buletruck]

There seems to be this perception that with the kiosks that you just pass through immigration Scott free! This is not the case. There are immigration officers who collect the print out from the kiosk and ask some basic questions (where have you been, how long were you away, etc) and mark the printout and return it to you. You also have to return the printout out as you leave the immigration area to a CBSA officer who either lets you pass or sends you to secondary. There is always some personal interaction with a human being.

 

[kazemiakk]

Sir I got PR in July 29.2011 but went back to India in 30 Nov 2012. as my wife had cancer and she passed away in 2015.Again I cane to Canada in 24 April 2016. but my PR has expired on 29 Sep 2016. I lived in Canada more than 730 days. but I was outside Canada more than 1095 days. Should I apply for renewal for my PR again.

I guess the automated kiosk is a better than confronting the officer.

 

[kazemiakk]

For a PR in breach of the PR but who presents a currently valid PR card, and who was last in Canada within the year, or perhaps even within the last two years, I cannot quantify the risk of being reported at the PoE. I would be skeptical of anyone who claims they can. Especially during the first five years after landing, when screening of returning PRs can be quite relaxed.

But being in breach of the PR risks being reported. That is one of the few for-sure things that can be said.

The bigger (longer) the breach, the greater the risk. The longer the PR has been outside Canada, the more likely a PoE officer may have concerns leading to questions related to PR Residency Obligations.

The more frequent and regular the PR has been in Canada, and the more recent, tends to indicate lower risks. But nonetheless, being in breach definitely risks losing PR status . . . and almost all indications are in the direction of increased scrutiny and increased enforcement.

The automated kiosk probably does not automatically trigger a non-routine re-entry (referral to secondary examination), for a PR based on cumulative absences. But of course all travelers flying into Canada must complete the Customs Declaration card, pursuant to which a PR is obligated to disclose how long the PR has been outside Canada. Disclosing an extended absence in that may trigger a referral to a secondary examination where PR RO related questions can be asked. And of course, it is never a good idea to make a false declaration in writing (such as understating length of absence in a Customs Declaration) . . . particularly for a PR intending to make a cutting-it-close PR card application shortly after being back in Canada barely two years plus a bit, since again the history including the absence for a time constituting a breach of the PR RO will be readily observed in the PR's address, activity (work or school), and travel history, as well as in the government's CBSA travel history. Which is to recognize, for such a PR, there is a significant risk of Secondary Review and potential scrutiny digging into the PR's past CBSA and CIC and IRCC transactions, including digging up some records derived from PoE transactions.


Remember: just cutting-it-close can be risky. I may not have made that observation in this particular topic, but it is one I have made often in this forum. This risk tends to be overlooked or ignored by many, particularly more than a few who eventually are among those reporting anecdotal experiences about suffering the travails of Secondary Review when attempting to obtain a new PR card.

The purpose of PR status is so that individuals can settle and live in Canada permanently. There is no explicit requirement that PRs must be settled in Canada permanently, so long as they meet the PR RO, but only a fool will ignore how-it-looks for those who are attempting to obtain a new PR card but who do not appear to be fully settled and living in Canada permanently; and similarly, only a fool will ignore how-it-looks for those whose history suggests gaming or abusing the system, let alone any suggestion of misrepresentations made along the way.

Let us be frank: many push the envelope, more than a few by a lot. Among these PRs, there are those who successfully keep PR status, and those who do not. How much a particular PR compromises other aspects of life or career in order to for-sure preserve PR status is a personal choice, and the individual's personal priorities play a big role in that personal decision-making process. Likewise, how much one gambles is very much a personal choice based on the individual's priorities and the vagaries of the situation.

What is a bad gamble, more so now than in the recent past, and probably even more so going forward, and a lot more than prior to 2010/2012 (when the Harper government implemented policies and practices to interdict and crack down on residency related fraud) is giving false or misleading information, including by omission, to either CBSA (such as in PoE encounters) or IRCC.

Thank you for your explanations.

My plan is to graduate in summer 2017 and looking for jobs in US until Jan 2018. If I find a job and be happy with my life I will stay in US and forget about Canada. Otherwise, I will relocate to Canada. So I will have breached the rules for less than 6 months (3.5 years out of Canada) by Jan 2018. in this case I will go though automated kiosk or by my car though Vancouver land port of entry. I think the risk of being reported will be very low for my case. what is your idea?

 

[dpenabill]

Thank you for your explanations.

My plan is to graduate in summer 2017 and looking for jobs in US until Jan 2018. If I find a job and be happy with my life I will stay in US and forget about Canada. Otherwise, I will relocate to Canada. So I will have breached the rules for less than 6 months (3.5 years out of Canada) by Jan 2018. in this case I will go though automated kiosk or by my car though Vancouver land port of entry. I think the risk of being reported will be very low for my case. what is your idea?

Again, a PR in breach of the PR Residency Obligation is at risk of being reported and losing PR status any time the PR engages in a transaction with CBSA (PoE) or IRCC. As I intimated, quantifying the risks is more than difficult, perhaps impossible. There are many, many variables, many of which the individual has little control over, and including some which are utterly unpredictable (ranging from randomly elevated or targeted scrutiny at a PoE, to an examining officer's attitude or mood).

Frankly, efforts to leverage the odds, such as calculating better odds for one mode of transport or at a particular PoE, over others, even using the automated kiosks, tend to be incremental at best and the practical reality is that other factors will more than likely loom larger, far larger.

Other than returning to Canada sooner rather than later, or at least traveling to Canada more frequently, efforts to control the risks tend to have erratic results at best.

That said, sure, there are some factors which a person can control and which are more or less likely to improve one's odds: for example, yes, if you are driving a car you own which is registered in British Columbia, and you cross the border near Vancouver, that probably improves the odds that a PR with a valid PR card will not be subject to further questions about residency. Ownership of a vehicle registered in B.C. tends to indicate the traveler's strong ties in B.C., little or no need to ask questions about residency.

But of course there are dozens of other little and large factors which in effect can telegraph a lot about the traveler (more so than many appear to realize). Efforts to manipulate one or three can easily backfire because contrived circumstances tend to be more or less obvious or otherwise tend to cause an attention grabbing incongruity relative to some other aspect of the individual's life. Canada's border officers are not nearly so oblivious as some participants in forums like this might suggest.

PRs who give the impression they are settled in Canada, or trying to get settled in Canada even if there has been some delay in doing so, are more likely to pass easily at the PoE. Beyond that, it's gambling, but unlike gambling at a casino, the odds cannot be readily calculated.

I realize you'd like more definitive information, more certain indicators. Sorry, there really is no reliable way to quantify the risks.


All that said, there is one huge factor that can really hurt: compromised credibility. Any answers or behavior that a CBSA or IRCC officer perceives to be evasive or lacking candor, let alone deceptive, will tend to flush the odds right down the proverbial toilet.

 

[kazemiakk]

Again, a PR in breach of the PR Residency Obligation is at risk of being reported and losing PR status any time the PR engages in a transaction with CBSA (PoE) or IRCC. As I intimated, quantifying the risks is more than difficult, perhaps impossible. There are many, many variables, many of which the individual has little control over, and including some which are utterly unpredictable (ranging from randomly elevated or targeted scrutiny at a PoE, to an examining officer's attitude or mood).

Frankly, efforts to leverage the odds, such as calculating better odds for one mode of transport or at a particular PoE, over others, even using the automated kiosks, tend to be incremental at best and the practical reality is that other factors will more than likely loom larger, far larger.

Other than returning to Canada sooner rather than later, or at least traveling to Canada more frequently, efforts to control the risks tend to have erratic results at best.

That said, sure, there are some factors which a person can control and which are more or less likely to improve one's odds: for example, yes, if you are driving a car you own which is registered in British Columbia, and you cross the border near Vancouver, that probably improves the odds that a PR with a valid PR card will not be subject to further questions about residency. Ownership of a vehicle registered in B.C. tends to indicate the traveler's strong ties in B.C., little or no need to ask questions about residency.

But of course there are dozens of other little and large factors which in effect can telegraph a lot about the traveler (more so than many appear to realize). Efforts to manipulate one or three can easily backfire because contrived circumstances tend to be more or less obvious or otherwise tend to cause an attention grabbing incongruity relative to some other aspect of the individual's life. Canada's border officers are not nearly so oblivious as some participants in forums like this might suggest.

PRs who give the impression they are settled in Canada, or trying to get settled in Canada even if there has been some delay in doing so, are more likely to pass easily at the PoE. Beyond that, it's gambling, but unlike gambling at a casino, the odds cannot be readily calculated.

I realize you'd like more definitive information, more certain indicators. Sorry, there really is no reliable way to quantify the risks.


All that said, there is one huge factor that can really hurt: compromised credibility. Any answers or behavior that a CBSA or IRCC officer perceives to be evasive or lacking candor, let alone deceptive, will tend to flush the odds right down the proverbial toilet.

thank you so much for your reply. I have single entry visa for US so I have multiple entry back and forth to Canada and US. I own a car and I want to register it in B.C I have two questions:
1- Is it possible to get the title and plate (register) my Canada while I am in US? Or I (or my car) need to physically there ?
2-Does CSBA have all record of my registration when passing the border? So does can officer at the border check my registration of my car and be suspicious about it?

 

[prakash419]

If you're asking for advice on how to lie to CBSA, you've come to the wrong place. It's always a bad idea.

thats the problem man, wrong kind of people entering canada, which worries me. I want to live along side truthful and law abiding people.

 

[crude101]

Hi folks. We landed in canada on 16th aug 2015 and stayed in canada till 25th dec 2015. Thats 4 months 10 days. I have been outside canada since we left. Now im planning to move back on 10th of nov 2018. Our PR cards expire on 20th nov 2020. Are we safe. Need urgent answers as we will have to plan the move quickly. Thanks in advance

 

[dpenabill]

Hi folks. We landed in canada on 16th aug 2015 and stayed in canada till 25th dec 2015. Thats 4 months 10 days. I have been outside canada since we left. Now im planning to move back on 10th of nov 2018. Our PR cards expire on 20th nov 2020. Are we safe. Need urgent answers as we will have to plan the move quickly. Thanks in advance

Obviously you are cutting-it-close and obviously cutting-it-close has some risks. So what is "safe" is relative.

Odds are good you will be OK. Maybe even VERY good odds it will be OK. Assuming you do in fact return in November, especially the first half of November.

Indeed, odds are fairly good there will be NO questions about PR RO compliance. Even though the date the PR card expires is NOT relevant in a formal calculation of PR RO compliance, for a PR in the first five years since landing the act of presenting a valid PR card which does not expire for nearly two more years or so, that in itself does NOT suggest a RO issue. So there is little reason for the PoE officer to pursue questions about RO compliance.

However, given how long you have been outside Canada, and the fact that obviously you are cutting-it-close, and the fact that you are past the third-year anniversary of the date you landed, means actual compliance with the RO is dependent on how long you have actually been present in Canada and questions about this MIGHT be asked. If asked, odds are good your word (assuming it is truthful) will suffice, albeit the PoE officers might caution or warn or admonish you about future compliance with the PR RO. Nonetheless, if you want to give yourself another layer of safety, you could carry, in your hands, proof of the date you left Canada or other proof to show you were in Canada as of December 2015.

Of course there is NO perfect level of safety. Your compliance with the PR RO can now depend on PROOF of your presence in Canada. And since, again, you are obviously cutting-it-close, there is some degree of risk.

Moreover, you have now boxed yourselves into staying in Canada for nearly all of the next two years, at minimum, and including in effect continuing to be cutting-it-close for NEARLY the NEXT THREE YEARS, since when August 2020 comes around, those days you were in Canada in 2015 will begin to fall out of the calculation and NOT count. So even if you stay in Canada without ever leaving you will still be cutting-it-close until well into mid-2021, until you have THIS TIME (not counting any 2015 days) have been present in Canada for at least 900 to 1000 days (until you have well-established permanently settling in Canada including being in Canada well over half the time in the most recent five year time period).

 

[crude101]

Obviously you are cutting-it-close and obviously cutting-it-close has some risks. So what is "safe" is relative.

Odds are good you will be OK. Maybe even VERY good odds it will be OK. Assuming you do in fact return in November, especially the first half of November.

Indeed, odds are fairly good there will be NO questions about PR RO compliance. Even though the date the PR card expires is NOT relevant in a formal calculation of PR RO compliance, for a PR in the first five years since landing the act of presenting a valid PR card which does not expire for nearly two more years or so, that in itself does NOT suggest a RO issue. So there is little reason for the PoE officer to pursue questions about RO compliance.

However, given how long you have been outside Canada, and the fact that obviously you are cutting-it-close, and the fact that you are past the third-year anniversary of the date you landed, means actual compliance with the RO is dependent on how long you have actually been present in Canada and questions about this MIGHT be asked. If asked, odds are good your word (assuming it is truthful) will suffice, albeit the PoE officers might caution or warn or admonish you about future compliance with the PR RO. Nonetheless, if you want to give yourself another layer of safety, you could carry, in your hands, proof of the date you left Canada or other proof to show you were in Canada as of December 2015.

Of course there is NO perfect level of safety. Your compliance with the PR RO can now depend on PROOF of your presence in Canada. And since, again, you are obviously cutting-it-close, there is some degree of risk.

Moreover, you have now boxed yourselves into staying in Canada for nearly all of the next two years, at minimum, and including in effect continuing to be cutting-it-close for NEARLY the NEXT THREE YEARS, since when August 2020 comes around, those days you were in Canada in 2015 will begin to fall out of the calculation and NOT count. So even if you stay in Canada without ever leaving you will still be cutting-it-close until well into mid-2021, until you have THIS TIME (not counting any 2015 days) have been present in Canada for at least 900 to 1000 days (until you have well-established permanently settling in Canada including being in Canada well over half the time in the most recent five year time period).

Thank you for your response. I do have the entry and exit boarding passes for the days i was in Canada. The passport stamps etc. Also the bank statements reconfirming that the transactions were done in Canada till dec 2015. So the actuall worry is the i am boxing myself in for two years and wont be able to leave canada till August 2020 arrives (thats when my days will be complete) for PR renewal.

 

[dpenabill]

I am going to go into some detail here because many, many PRs tend to overestimate the relevance of meeting the PR Residency Obligation during the first five years. Having more than 730 days credit during the first five years does NOT COMPLETE a PR's Residency Obligation. A PR's RO is NEVER complete for as long as he or she is a PR.

For example, 730 days presence during the first five years has NO MORE significance than having one day's presence prior to the third year anniversary of the day of landing.

And the day after the fifth year anniversary, and every day after that, how many days the PR was present in Canada during the first five years is NOT relevant. What is relevant, what counts, is how many days the PR has been present during the previous five years AS OF that day, for each and every day going forward.

SHORT ANSWERS COMPARED: Most get this when, as many forum participants tend to describe it, it is said that as of the fifth year anniversary the PR RO is a "rolling" calculation. So the typical short answer to PR RO queries is that "the RO is a 'rolling' calculation requiring the PR be present in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years."

However, more than a few PRs tend to underestimate the practical impact of this. So, as I am wont to do, I offer the LONG EXPLANATION.

This is largely in the nature of a CAUTION. Just peruse the scores and scores of posts in topics about Secondary Review and PR card processing timelines and you will see a steady stream of complaints, and more than a little gnashing of teeth, in the many, many tales of woe related to those PRs who were cutting-it-close when they applied for a new PRC . . . some are indeed rather sad tales, such as the PR practically stuck in Canada when a parent is suddenly seriously ill or suddenly dies, for example, her PRC application stuck in SR and given the fact of cutting-it-close the PR is afraid to travel abroad and depend on getting a PR Travel Document in order to return to Canada (some visa offices tend to be more strict, sometimes severely so, in determining whether to grant a PR TD, and in some visa offices in particular the timeline for obtaining a PR TD can be a big issue).

Reaching the threshold of 730 days presence in Canada as of the end of the first five years is NOT magical. That day is just like any other day when it comes to calculating compliance with the RO.

So the actuall worry is the i am boxing myself in for two years and wont be able to leave canada till August 2020 arrives (thats when my days will be complete) for PR renewal.

To be clear: PR does NOT get renewed. There is NO renewal of PR status.

For clarity: YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LEAVE CANADA FOR ANY MORE TIME AFTER AUGUST 2020 THAN YOU CAN IN THE MEANTIME UNTIL, AT THE VERY SOONEST, DECEMBER 26, 2020.

Compliance with the PR Residency Obligation can never said to be "complete." Each day is a different calculation. To be in compliance with the PR RO the PR must have been present in Canada:

-- at least 730 days within the previous five years,
-- OR, until the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, NOT been absent for more than 1095 days since the date of landing​

If you arrive in November, TECHNICALLY (potentially subject to providing proof of days present, if requested) you will be in compliance with around a month margin. If you stay without leaving, that will continue to be how much margin you have UNTIL DECEMBER 26. 2020.

REMEMBER: As of 17 August 2020 there is a completely NEW five year period of time for calculating your compliance with the PR RO. And that applies to the next day and every day after that unless and until you become a Canadian citizen.

FOR EXAMPLE: If you leave Canada (say you leave August 29, 2020) and then return to Canada October 1, 2020. Your compliance with the PR RO will be based on the number of days you have been in Canada between October 1, 2015 and October 1, 2020. The days you were in Canada in August and September 2015 WILL NOT COUNT.


EXAMPLE BASED ON APPLICATION TO RENEW PR Card:

Typically a PR can make an application to renew a PRC when the PR's current PRC will expire in less than six months (sometimes, including currently, technically IRCC will allow PRs to apply even sooner as posted on their website; currently up to nine months before the card expires as of the last time I looked). Common usage, and IRCC usage as well, often refers to the "renewal" of the PR card. Substantively this is actually the issuance of a NEW or replacement PR card. Nothing is "renewed" as such.

When there is an application for renewal, for a new PR card to replace one that is soon expiring, IRCC MUST make a determination regarding compliance with the PR RO.

Assuming you come and stay as planned, until December 26, 2020 the PR RO compliance calculation for you will be EXACTLY the same no matter which day you make the PRC application. It will be exactly the same calculation if you make the PRC application June 17, 2020, or July 17, 2020, or August 17, 2020, or October 12, 2020 or November 23, 2020. You will have EXACTLY the same number of days credit toward PR RO compliance on every one of those days, and all the days in-between . . . right up to December 26, 2020. Assuming you STAY in Canada with NO trips abroad (well, you could make day-trips or even one-night trips to the U.S. without affecting the calculation).

The fact you have been in Canada 730 days, or 769 days, as of August 16, 2020 does NOT mean anything more than the fact that the number of days you have been in Canada to date plus the number of days left until August 16, 2020 add up to 730 or 769. And as of August 17, 2020 the fact you were present in Canada at least 730 days in your first five years will NOT be relevant. What will matter as of August 17, 2020, will be how many days you have been in Canada in the five years preceding that day. So, again, if you apply for a new PRC on, say, September 1, 2020, NONE of the days you were present here in August 2015 will count. What will count is how many days you have been in Canada between September 1, 2015 and September 1, 2020.

IMPACT OF CUTTING-IT-CLOSE: Again, for you, assuming NO travel abroad after arriving in November, the PR RO calculation will remain EXACTLY the same UNTIL DECEMBER 26, 2020. That is, you will NOT be adding a single day more to the days credit you get toward compliance with the PR RO, until you are present in Canada on and after December 26, 2020. Since you are already cutting-it-close, (and at best will continue to be cutting-it-close well into 2021) there is a substantial risk an application for a renewed or new PRC will be subject to non-routine processing. No way around this now. You have already been absent for nearly three years.

In such a scenario there is, for example, the risk the PR will be required to pick up the newly issued PR card in person (rather than the PRC being mailed to the PR), or in some cases the PR may be required to attend an interview and answer questions about presence in Canada. The inquiry in these scenarios can be, and typically will be, about BOTH compliance as of the date the application was made AND compliance as of the date of the counter-interview (see ENF 27, which I recently linked in topic about SR, which includes a screening checklist for counter-referrals) or the date of the interview.

In your situation, for example, if you apply for a new PRC, say July 7, 2020 or September 7, 2020, assuming you have not traveled outside Canada in the meantime, you will be in RO compliance as of the date you applied for the PRC (which is an eligibility requirement to be issued a new PRC), but given cutting-it-close you may need to pick up the card in person (which involves a "counter interview") or attend a formal RO compliance interview. If you have not traveled outside Canada at all, NO PROBLEM at the interview. If, however, in the meantime you have traveled outside Canada for, say, more than the number of days between when you arrive in November and December 25, you will NOT be in compliance as of the day of the interview AND at risk for being issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order.

And apart from that, assume you stay in Canada until August 16, 2020, until September 1, 2020 even, and then travel abroad. If you are abroad more than the number of days between when you arrive in November and December 25 (plus the number of additional days after August 16, 2020 you stay, before actually leaving), you will be in breach of the PR RO and at risk for being reported when you return to Canada.

Even if you are issued a new PR card in 2020, if you leave Canada in 2020 before the date in November you arrive this year, and are then abroad past December 25 that year, you will likewise be in breach of the PR RO and, even with an almost brand new PR card in hand, at risk of being reported and losing PR upon your return to Canada.

Again, this site is rife with tales of woe told by many who failed to grasp the "rolling" nature of the PR RO. I have gone into this detail in the hopes that those for whom keeping PR status is a priority they can better grasp this and better navigate their travel choices to avoid not only the risk of losing status outright but also potentially difficult struggles to keep PR status if and when IRCC apprehends a breach.

 

[Guggu]

Hello sir I have been outside Canada for 3 years and 3 days .my pr card is valid till October 2020 can I still make it to Canada without any problem at Poe. Thanks

 

[crude101]

You said ....

Even if you are issued a new PR card in 2020, if you leave Canada in 2020 before the date in November you arrive this year, and are then abroad past December 25 that year, you will likewise be in breach of the PR RO and, even with an almost brand new PR card in hand, at risk of being reported and losing PR upon your return to Canada

This i dont understand. Why

 

[dpenabill]

Hello sir I have been outside Canada for 3 years and 3 days .my pr card is valid till October 2020 can I still make it to Canada without any problem at Poe. Thanks

A valid PR card (and passport) is sufficient to obtain boarding on a flight destined for Canada. So yes, a valid PR card will allow you to travel to Canada.

Since you have been outside Canada for three years and 3 days, you are currently in breach of the PR Residency Obligation. Unless one of the exceptions is available (accompanying citizen spouse for example), an absence for three years plus in itself, definitely, on its face, constitutes a breach of the PR RO, because there is no way to have been present in Canada 730 days within the preceding five years (or, for a PR who landed less than five years ago, once the PR has been absent three years (plus a day or two) since landing, there is NO way to be in Canada at least 730 days in the first five years).

If a PR arrives at a Canadian PoE and is in breach of the PR RO, the PR is at risk for being reported and losing PR status (the procedure is discussed in-depth in numerous other topics).

BUT how it will actually go, how it will in practice go at the PoE, depends on many, many other factors. The length of the most recent absence is only one factor, even if the length of that absence by itself shows a breach of the PR RO. The reason why the PR has not returned sooner can be a huge factor. If the PR is still within the first five years of landing, and not very much in breach, there is probably a fair chance of being waived through or a good chance that a Secondary examination only results in a caution or admonition rather than being reported. Way, way too many variables and possibilities to try enumerating them.

Basically, the more in breach the returning PR is, the bigger the risk of being questioned about RO compliance, and if question, the bigger the risk of being reported. The better, more compelling reason the PR has for not coming to Canada sooner, the better the PR's chances of not being reported even if questioned. But again, there are many other factors in play.

You said ....

Even if you are issued a new PR card in 2020, if you leave Canada in 2020 before the date in November you arrive this year, and are then abroad past December 25 that year, you will likewise be in breach of the PR RO and, even with an almost brand new PR card in hand, at risk of being reported and losing PR upon your return to Canada

This i dont understand. Why

And I am well familiar with the extent to which many do not understand this. You are NOT alone in this. I know many fail to fully grasp how a "rolling" RO actually works. That is why I offered the LONG EXPLANATION. Sorry that I cannot explain this better. I will give it another shot.

This is indeed commonly misunderstood by many and that is why I made a concerted effort to include some examples which, I hoped, would better illuminate how the Residency Obligation works. My heart often aches when I see sad stories here from so many who failed to fully understand the rolling nature of the RO and that it can never be said a PR has "completed" the obligation.

First and foremost, the date a PR card expires is NOT relevant in calculating compliance with the RO. NOT RELEVANT. A brand new PRC issued in, say, October 2020, valid to October 2025, has ZERO bearing on whether or not the PR is meeting his or her obligations. ZERO bearing later that year, or in 2021. It does not matter how long the PRC is valid. Period.

Compliance with the PR RO is a DAILY calculation. Between now and August 16, 2020, RO compliance is based on calculating the total number of days you have been in Canada since landing PLUS the number of days left on the calendar until August 16, 2020, as long as the total of these two adds up to 730 or more, the PR is in compliance. If during this first five years, and since landing, the PR has been outside Canada for more than 1095 days it is then arithmetically IMPOSSIBLE to meet the PR RO.

Thus, if you return to Canada by, say, November 17, 2018, you will have been absent from Canada approximately 1057 days. Technically this gives you a 37 or 38 day margin over the minimum (assuming you can provide proof of actual presence to the satisfaction of IRCC or a border officer). As long as you are not absent from Canada more than 37 more days between your arrival in November and August 16, 2020, you are in compliance with the RO (again, technically, subject to providing proof of actual presence to the satisfaction of IRCC or a border officer if asked).

That will NOT make compliance with the PR RO "complete" as of August 16, 2020. There is no such thing as completing RO compliance.

Assuming no further absences, as of that day you will still have 1057 days absence during the five years that count. Credit for approximately 768 days presence. (Note: this is subject to precise calculation considering February 29 in a leap year.) The next day, August 17, 2020 you will still have 1057 days absence during the five years that count, that is the five years between August 17, 2015 and August 17, 2020, and thus still only 768 days presence. AND as of August 23, 2020 you will still have 1057 days absence (768 days presence) during the five years that count, that is the five years between August 23, 2015 and August 23, 2020.

This continues for every day until the second year anniversary of the day you return to Canada. Thus, for example, as long as you continue to stay in Canada, as of November 3, 2020 you will still have been absent from Canada for 1057 days, or put the other way, you should be (potentially subject to proving it) credited for 768 days presence.

And, again, if you applied for and obtained a new PR card by then, by say November 3, 2020, that has NO effect on how long you have been outside Canada or inside Canada during the preceding five years. AND the PR RO is based on that, on how long you have been outside Canada or inside Canada during the preceding five years. That is how it works.

So as of November 3, 2020, you will still have an approximate 38 day margin. If you leave that day, every day you are gone after that will SUBTRACT a day from your calculation . . . until December 25, 2020. This is because every day between November 3, 2020 and December 25, 2020 you LOSE credit as the corresponding dates in 2015 NO LONGER COUNT because they are more than five years ago.

Thus, in this example (having returned here November 17, 2018) if you leave November 3, 2020, and are gone 39 days (until December 13, 2020 say), you will be in breach of the PR RO, since as of December 13, 2020 you will have only been present in Canada 729 days between December 13, 2015 and December 13, 2020. Again, you would be in breach even if you are carrying a new PR card valid until October 2025.

A one day breach is NOT at all likely to trigger any serious questioning of compliance. NOT likely to trigger being reported. NOT likely to cause loss of PR status. BUT to be in breach is to be AT RISK for losing PR status (and as I have gone into detail elsewhere, given the vagaries of actual PROOF to IRCC satisfaction, even cutting-it-close carries some risk). And as I have otherwise emphasized, among key factors is how big the breach is, the reasons why there was a breach, and as I have gone into detail in other topics, to what extent IRCC perceives whether or not the PR has fully settled and is living PERMANENTLY in Canada.

ONLY if you stay in Canada until the two-year anniversary of your return will you then actually have a full 730 days actual presence going forward when you leave Canada again (for up to the following three years). For example, if again you actually return here November 17, 2018, and then you stay until at least November 17, 2020, at that point you will have 730 days of continuous presence in Canada and thus you will have, at minimum, at least 730 days presence within the preceding five years until November 16, 2023 no matter how many additional days you are absent after November 17, 2020. Technically you could leave Canada November 18, 2020 and not return until November 17, November 2023 (but that would be cutting it extremely close and quite risky since it would be a situation which on its face likely to raise serious questions if not suspicions, given it would appear to be obvious you had made little or no effort to fully settle and live in Canada permanently, contrary to the purpose for a grant of PR status).

Bottom-line: if you return November 3, 2018, you will need to stay until November 4, 2020 to be sure to be in compliance going forward after that. If you return November 17, 2018, you will need to stay until November 18, 2020 to be sure. That is, you will need to stay TWO STRAIGHT years, since as of August 17, 2020 the days you were in Canada in 2015 will begin to STOP counting.

I hope I have explained this adequately.