Meeting Permanent Residency requirements while living in the US

[jnt211]

Hello. I've seen a few posts about this but wanted to clarify...

I am a Canadian citizen -- my son and husband are PR-- and my daughter is a Canadian citizen as well. We lived in Canada for one year, but had to relocate to the US due to Covid related job issues. We plan to return, but will have been living in the US together for nearly two years by the time we return to Canada. Have my son and husband been meeting their PR obligations since they are living with my daughter and I (we are both dual citizens)? I am not concerned with them meeting their citizenship obligations, simply that they are not jeopardizing losing their PR status.

Of note, we never alerted CIC or anyone that they were leaving Canada for an extended time, are we supposed to? If so, whom do we contact? Thanks!!

 

[scylla]

Hello. I've seen a few posts about this but wanted to clarify...

I am a Canadian citizen -- my son and husband are PR-- and my daughter is a Canadian citizen as well. We lived in Canada for one year, but had to relocate to the US due to Covid related job issues. We plan to return, but will have been living in the US together for nearly two years by the time we return to Canada. Have my son and husband been meeting their PR obligations since they are living with my daughter and I (we are both dual citizens)? I am not concerned with them meeting their citizenship obligations, simply that they are not jeopardizing losing their PR status.

Of note, we never alerted CIC or anyone that they were leaving Canada for an extended time, are we supposed to? If so, whom do we contact? Thanks!!

IRCC will often apply the "who accompanied whom" rule in these situations.

This means that if the primary reason for relocating outside of Canada was due to your job, then the time spend outside of Canada can be counted towards PR by your husband and son. If the primary reason for relocating outside of Canada was due to your spouse's employment, then the answer is uncertain and IRCC may not allow you to count the time.

FYI - your daughter is irrelevent in this situation since she is a minor.

 

[jnt211]

IRCC will often apply the "who accompanied whom" rule in these situations.

This means that if the primary reason for relocating outside of Canada was due to your job, then the time spend outside of Canada can be counted towards PR by your husband and son. If the primary reason for relocating outside of Canada was due to your spouse's employment, then the answer is uncertain and IRCC may not allow you to count the time.

FYI - your daughter is irrelevent in this situation since she is a minor.

I keep reading about this "who accompanied who" and I feel really stumped by it.

Is it basically who financially supports the family more? We both worked in hospitality and were furloughed indefinitely during Covid. There was a work opportunity in the US for both of us -- though my husband (the PR) is our primary income earner and I work but am more with our children. Is this the nuance that determines the who accompanied who?

 

[PMM]

Hi

Hello. I've seen a few posts about this but wanted to clarify...

I am a Canadian citizen -- my son and husband are PR-- and my daughter is a Canadian citizen as well. We lived in Canada for one year, but had to relocate to the US due to Covid related job issues. We plan to return, but will have been living in the US together for nearly two years by the time we return to Canada. Have my son and husband been meeting their PR obligations since they are living with my daughter and I (we are both dual citizens)? I am not concerned with them meeting their citizenship obligations, simply that they are not jeopardizing losing their PR status.

Of note, we never alerted CIC or anyone that they were leaving Canada for an extended time, are we supposed to? If so, whom do we contact? Thanks!!

1. Hopefully your son is under the age of 18 so your spouse and him can maintain their PR status.
2. You don't have to contact anyone.

 

[YVR123]

I keep reading about this "who accompanied who" and I feel really stumped by it.

Is it basically who financially supports the family more? We both worked in hospitality and were furloughed indefinitely during Covid. There was a work opportunity in the US for both of us -- though my husband (the PR) is our primary income earner and I work but am more with our children. Is this the nuance that determines the who accompanied who?

Since both of you are working, it's hard to say that he is not accompanying you (the citizen). i.e. I think your case is ok.
I don't think it's determined by who makes more money. In some cases, the citizens were staying home only with the children or homemaking and the family returned to the home country of the PR. Those cases are harder to argue that the PR is accompanying the citizen.

 

[dpenabill]

I keep reading about this "who accompanied who" and I feel really stumped by it.

Is it basically who financially supports the family more? We both worked in hospitality and were furloughed indefinitely during Covid. There was a work opportunity in the US for both of us -- though my husband (the PR) is our primary income earner and I work but am more with our children. Is this the nuance that determines the who accompanied who?

The who-accompanied-whom question does not affect a child (minor/dependent) living abroad with a Canadian citizen parent. That is, does not matter if the family went and is abroad to accompany the PR parent so long as the child is living abroad with a Canada citizen parent. (And as @PMM noted, of an age meaning they are a dependent.)

In the circumstances you describe, for now it should be safe for the PR spouse to rely on the accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse credit. There is no guarantee, and this is something that can change, but the key factors are: living abroad together and having made the move abroad together, a move abroad from residing in Canada together.

Thus, I essentially agree with the observation by @YVR123

If there was a longer period of time the PR spouse here was clearly settled and living in Canada, prior to the move, it would be safe to be even more confident there would be no problem (so long as the couple moved abroad together and is living abroad together). In some cases where there is not an established history of the PR being well-settled in Canada, that appears to involve some risk a who-accompanied-whom question can come up.

Explanation:

If the family was living together in Canada prior to a move abroad, the reason for the move abroad will NOT, not ordinarily, trigger any who-accompanied-whom questions.

Even if the issue arises, the usual approach to evaluating whether a PR gets credit for time abroad accompanying a Canadian-citizen-spouse is to allow the credit so long as the couple were ordinarily residing together abroad.

There have been some exceptions to the latter. Just *some* but not a lot, and no indication that is common. Other than some very isolated instances (which may have been triggered by factors not readily apparent), cases in which the who-accompanied-whom question is seriously considered, and credit is denied despite time the couple are abroad together, are almost all more or less extreme situations in which the PR has negligible ties to Canada; most involve PRs who never actually resided in Canada.

In addition to living together, actually traveling together, regardless of the reason for going abroad, should usually suffice even if there is a who-accompanied-whom challenge.

All that said, this may be an issue somewhat in transition. Recent changes in the form, checklist, and instructions for a PR card application, for example, appear more oriented to the term "accompanying" than previously (rather than living or residing together abroad). My sense is to NOT read too much into this and that there is no cause to anticipate who-accompanied-whom challenges unless --

-- the PR spouse has never or only minimally resided in Canada, or​

-- it appears the couple are abroad to be where the PR spouse's life is centered and over a lengthy period of time (many years) the couple has not maintained Canadian ties other than the one spouse's citizenship status​

If and when the issue does arise, how things go can get complicated, there are many variables and nuances, and there is no clear law specifying what constitutes "accompanying" a spouse, with conflicting approaches to how the who-accompanied-whom question is assessed. This is discussed at-length and in depth in another topic:
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-i...ing-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/

 

[armoured]

We lived in Canada for one year, but had to relocate to the US due to Covid related job issues. We plan to return, but will have been living in the US together for nearly two years by the time we return to Canada. Have my son and husband been meeting their PR obligations since they are living with my daughter and I (we are both dual citizens)?

A few short things to note to add to discussion above:
-if you will only have been outside Canada for two years, your spouse and son will be in compliance anyway (as long as total days outside of Canada <1095 in the relevant five year period, in this case from day of landing to the five year anniversary of landing.

-one of a few small tricks about the 'accompanying citizen' rule is when exactly this gets decided by IRCC. The points at which this generally comes up when renewing the PR card, applying for a PRTD (because PR card expired or otherwise lost), or - if reported for non-compliance - on appeal. (It might get informally 'counted' at a border crossing, i.e. border officer asks why out of compliance and explanation given, officer waves you through - distinction only being here that no formal decision made, just leniency on basis that not worth reporting).

Upshot likely being: if your husband and spouse remain compliant by the time they need to renew the PR card, basically it will never come up (or at least need to be decided).

-Is your spouse a US citizen? It's my speculation (belief) that a PR who moves with a spouse to a third country (i.e. not own home country) is less likely to have the question of who-accompanied-whom come up. Doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with the points above (i.e. your case may be straightforward anyway), just saying it's possibly one of the factors considered.

 

[jnt211]

Thank you for all the replies -- it does sound like a very nuanced situation! I am a Canadian who has almost always lived in the US, except for the one year we lived in Canada. We had settled there entirely and had it not been for Covid and a total absence of work and a newborn child we would have remained. Our goal is to return in the next year -- in which case it would have been one year living in Canada (since landing in Sept 2019) and then two years living in the US. So maybe it is all a non-issue since we would be moving back within the original 5 years of the PR term?

-Is your spouse a US citizen? It's my speculation (belief) that a PR who moves with a spouse to a third country (i.e. not own home country) is less likely to have the question of who-accompanied-whom come up. Doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with the points above (i.e. your case may be straightforward anyway), just saying it's possibly one of the factors considered.
[/QUOTE]

Yes my spouse is a US citizen (we all are, except my daughter and I are dual with Canada-- my husband and son are US only with CA PR). Both my kids are minors.

When we returned we thought it was only going to be a few months, but Covid just kept on keeping on... I guess when we go back it will just be a typical move and not an whole thing at the border again since they have their PR cards and my daughter has her CA birth certificate....

 

[canuck78]

Thank you for all the replies -- it does sound like a very nuanced situation! I am a Canadian who has almost always lived in the US, except for the one year we lived in Canada. We had settled there entirely and had it not been for Covid and a total absence of work and a newborn child we would have remained. Our goal is to return in the next year -- in which case it would have been one year living in Canada (since landing in Sept 2019) and then two years living in the US. So maybe it is all a non-issue since we would be moving back within the original 5 years of the PR term?

-Is your spouse a US citizen? It's my speculation (belief) that a PR who moves with a spouse to a third country (i.e. not own home country) is less likely to have the question of who-accompanied-whom come up. Doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with the points above (i.e. your case may be straightforward anyway), just saying it's possibly one of the factors considered.

Yes my spouse is a US citizen (we all are, except my daughter and I are dual with Canada-- my husband and son are US only with CA PR). Both my kids are minors.

When we returned we thought it was only going to be a few months, but Covid just kept on keeping on... I guess when we go back it will just be a typical move and not an whole thing at the border again since they have their PR cards and my daughter has her CA birth certificate....
[/QUOTE]

In terms of notifying people you are supposed to notify the provincial healthcare authority. You will have to reapply for your health card after not meeting the residency obligation to maintain provincial health coverage even if you still have valid health cards. Depending on where you lived, how long you exactly spent in the province and when your child you may have not met the residency obligation to qualify for health coverage. You also need to be contacting CRA to advise them you have left Canada. Have you stopped receiving all your benefits like CCB?

in terms of the who accompanied whom when you received your job offers would likely be a factor. If one partner got the offer and started working much earlier than the other that could be an issue as it would appear that the move would have been due to one partner’s job. The fact that you both had lived in the US for a long period of time and had only briefly returned to Canada and then returned to the US highlights your return to US more than cases where people have moved around to various countries, partners have lived in different countries, the Canadian has spent time in Canada before marriage. As others have said it is hard to know whether it will ever be an issue. Best option is always to meet your RO. If you can’t meet your RO you should return as close to meeting your RO as possible. Worst case scenario you could always sponsor again.