Level of Interdependence in Spousal Relationship

[Marty11]

Hi All,

I need some advice from everybody, especially from the senior members in the following matter:

I have received my CAIPS notes, as my wife was scheduled for an interview in June at the Hong Kong VO, and I wanted to know their point of view on our file.
Here is what they say:

"Proof of relationship is standard package of photos & communications familiar in this office. Lack of documentary proof demonstrated combined joint affairs to the extent that reasonable person would expect of a couple spousal relationship, nor demonstrate the level of interdependence expected to such a relationship. Recommendation: Further examination."

So, what we have done so far: I have almost 1000 combined records of:
- e-mails, both ways;
- telephone both from me to her and from her to me;
- Yahoo Messenger and
- QQ International chats records.

As far as financial support, since we first made contact she told me that she does not need my money, and I told her the same as both of us have assets. So, I did not send her money on a regular basis, I just sent her money for some bigger expenses she had, including paying all her immigration fees when I submitted our file to the CIC last year, So far I have sent her a total exceeding 3000$ (including those fees), and by June will be something in excess of 3500-3600$ as I told her that I will help with some notarization/translation expenses.
I have records of all the money sent to her. This may go against our time line which is:
First made contact in Nov. 2010, married in July 2011 in China, and we met so far three times (Jan. 2011, July 2011, Jan. 2012) and will go to HK for her interview in June 2012. I have paid for the wedding party (I have the receipt, actually CIC has it).
Today I went to my banks to see if I can add her name to my accounts, 1 bank said that she has to be present and the other bank said that they are willing to help me and they have to investigate the legal issues as she is not in Canada yet. If they accept, I will have a proof that we have joint accounts, but that is 50-50% right now.

My question is and I need help here: WHAT ELSE CAN I OR SHE DO TO PROVE THEM WRONG at the interview ???
Senior memebers please help !
I usually do not panic and can keep my cool but now .....

I am starting to think if she fails the interview, what next ? I will appeal their decision, meanwhile we gather more proof, this means 6-7000$ for a good lawyer and another trip to China after another 6 months to be with my love for 1-2 weeks.

Why? Why ? Why ?

I am very determined to bring her here no matter what ! And I will tell this to them right to their face, if necessary.

Sorry for my long story, but I just wanted to present our context.

Please help !

Thank you.

 

[Marty11]

And something else to add: we both started to get seme "Blessing letters" from our parents, relatives and freinds, we hope to have soemwhere around 10-12 of these, although not required but to prove the legitimacy or our relationship and marriage.

 

[petergriffin]

For our application we included any bills or receipts or titles of assets in both our names also as the previous poster mentioned we included notarized letters from family and friends that had met my wife.

 

[Marty11]

Thank you,

We do not have any titles of assets in both of our names. The only thing in both our names were a couple of hotel receipts from China and HK showing that we shared the same room, those were included. Any other receipts I had, I sent them all.

 

[Marty11]

Any other ideas please ?
Thank you.

 

[Fencesitter]

"Proof of relationship is standard package of photos & communications familiar in this office. Lack of documentary proof demonstrated combined joint affairs to the extent that reasonable person would expect of a couple spousal relationship, nor demonstrate the level of interdependence expected to such a relationship. Recommendation: Further examination."

I am trying to fully understand what the above means. Basically, what it looks like they are saying is that you didn't provide enough documentary proof of joint affairs (could be interpreted as financial, living, etc). The thing I'm not sure about is the 'interdependence' note. What exactly do they mean by that? From the dictionary: dependence between two or more people. What do they want you to prove here? That your wife depends on you? How can this be proved to satisfy them if you don't live together?

I don't think providing more evidence of communication is going to help. They want to see more proof that your relationship meets their standard of what they consider a normal marriage. I'm not sure what proof you have, but I would definitely focus on any money given to your wife to support her, and how you depend on each other.

For my case, we have a son, so that should take care of any questions in regards to interdependence. We also have a joint account, rental contract, a car, etc. We provided them with loads of pictures and details surrounding our financial situation. My wife stays at home and takes care of our son, while I go off to work to earn the money. We are a team...she handles the home front, while I handle earning the money (but we noted that I also help around the house when I get home from work, which is totally true!). We've also been living together since 2006...

Marty, there is no need for panic. You have those notes, so prepare accordingly. Don't think that your wife will fail at the interview. All you need to do is prove you are a genuine couple...this should be easy, since you ARE genuine. Just provide reasonable explanations to satisfy the visa officer. I don't have any other suggestions...just focus on building more proof of your relationship.

I'm not going to wish you luck, because there is no need for that...you'll be fine...you'll pass that interview...and I predict you'll have the visa by the end of June!!!

FS

 

[Fencesitter]

Paying the CIC fees...hmm...could this be interpreted the wrong way if you have not been sending her money on a regular basis?

I would explain the reasons for not sending money. In my opinion, money should not be the determining factor as to the genuineness of your relationship, so maybe you should prepare those communication records to back up your reasons for not sending money.

FS

 

[petergriffin]

Hiya marty........FS has some good ideas and info for you and like he said dont panic. You sound very very sincere and im sure it will come across that way in the interview.

My wife and i included all that has been previously mentioned and also copies of my life insurance policy naming her as beneficiary and our joint bank account in her country and copies of my bank statements from canada showing any atm withdrawls i made in her country.

If Canadian banks wont give you a joint account maybe the banks in her country will....Might be worth a try.

Im not sure if its worth the hassle for you getting the life insurance stuff....We just included it because we had it from before.

 

[Marty11]

Thanks FS, that is what I have been doning in the last 16 months or so, gathering evidence. I have loads of chat records, telephone bills both from me and from her (many days we talk two times, in the morning and in the evening, and that can be traced) nd many e-mails, around 150 both ways. I rpovided I think a total of 50-60 photos from our outings together in Jan 2011, our wedding in July 2011, with her parents, brothers, friends. My children and parents were not there for our celebration due to prohibitive cost of palne tickets, hotels, etc...for 4 peaople. That might be 1 reson.

How we depend on each other ? Not very much financially, I send her money once in a while for extra expenses. But we depend on each other on the sentimental, affective level. How do we demonstrate that ??? Except with e-mails and that we often talk twice a day.

Paying the CIC fees...hmm...could this be interpreted the wrong way if you have not been sending her money on a regular basis? - what do you mean by that ? That I am interested in her financial status and I want to bring her in Canada ? That is not our case. We are both financially stable. And she said many times that she does not need my money, that is why I did not send her on regular basis money. If I just knew before, I would have send her say 200$ every month.

Anyway, we just have to stick together and we will succeed. Sooner or later, I am sure of that. I just feel it !

 

[Marty11]

Thanks Peter.

I tried that as soon as I got back from China last year, I talked to HR in my company, they said that everything takes effect AFTER she lands in Canada. Like she will be the beneficiary of my poension, according to Canadian law, I can put her as the benieficiary of my life insurance (part or all) as well, but all these only after she is here and they take effect after 3 months after she arrives here. That is what I was told.
To make a joint bank account in China, now is too late, in June I go to HK only, I do not cross into China. If I knew we could have done that when I was there last time in jan. 2012.
And now it got nother idea. Few months ago I modified my will, and I put her there as well, as beneficiary of my estate. I will take a copy of that as well.

Also, before we got married we agreed to make a Marriage Agreement (Pre Nuptial, as it is common here for partners at their second marriage, like is the case for both of us). My question now, should I include that as evidence as well ?
It is made here in Canada at a Law office and signed by both my lawyer and her lawyer.

 

[Fencesitter]

Marty,

In regards to the CIC fees, I was just brainstorming. I don't know how the VO will look at this if you haven't been supporting your wife financially. They may think: "Why would the sponsor pay the fees when he hasn't provided financial support and they claim to be financially independent?" Perhaps I am wrong...

As for the other proof, yes, do what you feel will establish interdependency on a different level (i.e. not financially).

Did you say you met your wife online? How long was the courtship before getting married? This may also be a factor you might consider.

Do you have any plans to have children? What did you submit in regards to your wife's employment in Canada?

Seeing as your relationship is genuine, I think the main thing is to eleviate the VOs concerns by overwhelming them with quality proof to satisfy what has been written in the CAIPS notes.

My wife and I were just discussing your case, and we both feel that you won't have any trouble. We compared our case to yours, and although there are a lot of differences, ultimately, you're situation SHOULD be different because you don't live with your wife. For us, like I mentioned, we've been together for years. We were bf/gf for nearly 3 years before getting married. We've been married for nearly 3 years and have a child + two dogs. You should explain that some of these things would have taken place in your relationship if you had been living here in China. The VO has to be reasonable given your circumstances...but don't be afraid of the interview...instead...your wife should go there with all the confidence in the world...there is no need to over think this...

I've said before that I would welcome an interview. It would finally give us a chance to meet with someone to explain everything in detail. Writing descriptions and narratives is one thing, but actually meeting someone face-to-face is something else. The only reason I don't want an interview is due to timing; we want to get out of China ASAP! Other than that, the interview would be fun for us...we wouldn't even prepare...we'd just go there and have a chat...maybe bring some coffee and biscuits...

FS

 

[Fencesitter]

Opening a joint bank account in China is painful. It takes ages. We did finally do it, but not because of immigration (the interest was higher + if anything happened to me, my wife would have legal access to our money). We tried to get a letter from the bank stating that we have a joint account, but they refused (weird! and very frustrating). Luckily, the notary public was able to notarize the original contract showing our joint account (the document we signed when we first opened the account). We had a major fight with the manager of the bank after waiting for 2 hours to get a simple letter stating that we have a joint account. Banking in China sucks!

FS

 

[Marty11]

Did you say you met your wife online? How long was the courtship before getting married? This may also be a factor you might consider.
We met online in Nov. 2010, met in peson in Jan. 2011 in HK, for 1 week. It was love at first sight for us, we are compatible at many emotional levels and have many common view points about life. Although there is a 12 years difference between us (me 48, she 36) this is not an impediment as long as we love each other. I proposed in that same week and we got married in July 2011 in China in Gz and had the wedding party in Changsha two days later where her mother, her brothers, her friends and a cousin attended our event. I sent many pictures from that event to CIC.

Do you have any plans to have children?
Not for the moment, we both have children from previous marriages, but after she settles down here , if God blesses us with a child, then so be it.

What did you submit in regards to your wife's employment in Canada?
Nothing, after she comes here she has to get some more English language courses, then she will decide what she wants to do. She will probably go back to school for a couple of years if she wants to continue same kind of work she is doing now.

 

[mr70]

In my opinion the financial support is not really a factor,however,your spouse paid the fees and it is usually the sponsor who pays them and not the sponsored. I think they are looking more for things like B-day cards,thinking of you cards,gifts etc and somethings showing support for your spouse on an emotional level.

The joint bank accounts between Canada and overseas countries are non existent in my opinion and I would think that the VO would understand that. I myself have tried to get joint accounts but have been told that my spouse needs to be here in Canada and sent CIC the letters the banks sent me stating that.

I think that showing your pre nup would not be a good thing,it may be looked at like you and your spouse are not in a genuine and continuing relationship. Every relationship has different dynamics and trying to show that on paper is difficult not really knowing what the VO's interpretation of a relationship is. What I would consider a typical relationship may vary to what our VO's is.


It sounds like you have provided lots of proof and what works for you and your spouse in your particular relationship.Living in two different countries is difficult and the VO's must understand that.

 

[CharlieD10]

I'm going to venture the opinion that one of the things they are looking at is the short length of your courtship, and maybe the fact that overall since you've been married you may not have spent a lot of time face to face with your spouse, and don't seem to be making any effort to combine your lives. This gives the impression that the marriage is not meant to last and you are avoiding emotional and financial "entanglement" to make it easier to separate once the visa is in hand.

Short courtships don't necessarily have to be a death knell, though, my husband and I were married after knowing each other 15 months, 13 of which were online. So you need to show that in spite of the short time, you KNOW each other, and you rely on each other. They are looking for people to need their marriage for more reasons than just getting a visa.

When selecting chat records and emails to send, don't just pick days at random, LOOK at your conversations and choose actual dates when you discussed matters that demonstrate financial and emotional interdependence.

For example, we don't have a joint account either, but we did have a lot of conversations on how we would handle our finances, and we made day-to-day decisions together. My husband would tell me about opening a new GIC, or getting changes done to his insurance, and I talked to him about paying the various bills for our apartment. We included days like those in the chat logs we sent.

As far as emotional interdependence goes, it's more than the "I love you's" that they are looking for. Do you lean on each other, talk things through together, maybe you even argue about things? That's interdependence. There were a couple of lengthy chat sessions when I kvetched to my husband about my boss and work situation, and he spent a lot of time talking me down and making me feel better. Then there was the email in which I wrote him the Riot Act because he stayed out late one night, and missed my goodnight call and text and had not given me any idea of his having plans. I included all of these to show that, yes, we live apart by many miles, but we live our lives "together" and "with" each other.

So, look for those conversations, look for those actions that show that you are very much a couple, distance and uncombined finances notwithstanding.

P.S. Not sure what province you are in, but my husband was actually able to get insurance for me in ON, and I haven't landed yet. He was somewhat put out that my rate is lower than his, not just because I am female and younger, but I don't smoke, either. :