Less than 1 year residency obligation

[valpyan]

Hi,

I would appreciate some help/ guidance. I landed in Canada in 2015 for a few weeks and have been out of Canada since then. I applied for my PR card and SIN.
I plan to return to Canada in late Sept 2019. My PR expires in March 2020, which means I will have only about 6 months residency. However, I have been working for (the subsidiary of a) Canadian company this whole time and will have an offer from another Canadian company in Sept.
Will I be able to show this to renew my PR (assuming I can get this my written on a company letter head)? What are the challenges I will face when entering Canada and while renewing my PR card? Is it straightforward? Thanks all for your help!

 

[canuck78]

You could get reported for not meeting your RO while entering Canada which could lead to you eventually losing your PR status. Working for a Canadian subsidiary during the last 4 years will not count. If you manage to enter without getting reported you will have to remain in Canada with an expired PR card which means you can’t travel outside of Canada for at least 2 years until you can renew your PR card.

 

[Bs65]

Just to expand on what Canuck78 ha said you cannot claim the time working for a subsidiary given the residency rule only applies if you had been working for a Candian company in Canada for a period of time, not just a few weeks and then they assigned you temorarily outside of Canada still working for the Canadian based company. Just because it is subsidiary would not count to maintain the residency obligation so you will be at risk when you enter Canada of losing your PR status so you will just have to keep fingers crossed and plan to stay put for a couple of years.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi,

I would appreciate some help/ guidance. I landed in Canada in 2015 for a few weeks and have been out of Canada since then. I applied for my PR card and SIN.
I plan to return to Canada in late Sept 2019. My PR expires in March 2020, which means I will have only about 6 months residency. However, I have been working for (the subsidiary of a) Canadian company this whole time and will have an offer from another Canadian company in Sept.
Will I be able to show this to renew my PR (assuming I can get this my written on a company letter head)? What are the challenges I will face when entering Canada and while renewing my PR card? Is it straightforward? Thanks all for your help!

To the extent the others have emphasized the RISK of being reported upon your arrival at a PoE, I concur in that caution.

In this regard, they are very likely correct that the time working for a Canadian subsidiary will NOT be given credit toward compliance with the RO, leaving you way short, way in breach, and thus very much at risk for being reported and losing PR status. (If you do not understand this, this is something discussed in depth in other topics, including a topic I started earlier this year specifically to go into some depth about the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit. More re this at end of post.)

That said, I disagree with the proposition that you cannot "claim" the time working for the Canadian subsidiary.

And when you arrive here, IF you are questioned about why you have been abroad so long, or asked related questions, and in particular if you are referred to Secondary and examined about Residency Obligation compliance, you should claim the time working abroad for a Canadian subsidiary as a reason for why you remained abroad so long and along with that further assert (truthfully, honestly) related factors . . . such as (again, if TRUTHFUL and HONEST) you needed the experience with the subsidiary to qualify for and obtain a position IN Canada . . . or you believed the time working for the subsidiary would count (again, only if this is truthful). Explain whatever YOUR REAL REASONS were.

It is very unlikely that the time working for the Canadian subsidiary will count toward meeting the RO. Which leaves you in breach of the RO. But that time could be a big positive factor in evaluating H&C reasons for why you should be allowed to retain your PR status.

Probably a good idea to have as much supporting documentation you can to show that the employer is a Canadian business or at least the subsidiary of a Canadian business.

But mostly . . . IF ASKED . . . remember, at the PIL it is better to answer questions as directly and SIMPLY as possible, without elaborating . . . and if you are lucky you could be waived into Canada without being closely questioned about RO compliance.

BUT if you are referred to Secondary and more or less specifically asked about RO compliance, which seems fairly likely to happen, that is when and where to provide more extensive details about WHY you have remained abroad and the employment related elements. Be OPEN. Be HONEST. Explain your situation and decisions.

No one here can predict how this will go. A lot depends on a wide range of factors, not the least of which is YOUR CREDIBILITY (which is why it is so important to be truthful, to be honest . . . appearing to be hesitant, vague, or evasive, let alone at all deceptive, can make a huge, huge difference).

SUMMARY: You are well in breach of the RO. So the risk of being reported is substantial. While working for a Canadian subsidiary is NOT going to get you credit toward meeting the RO, it could be a factor tipping the scales in your favour otherwise. How it will actually go is very, very difficult to forecast . . . and, in this regard, PLEASE report back how it does in fact go for you.



WHAT HAPPENS THEN:

How it goes at the PoE upon arrival can vary. It is possible you could be waived through by a PIL officer, without being asked any in-depth RO questions.

The other possibility is you are referred to Secondary, and questioned closely about RO compliance, which I have discussed above and which itself can lead to different outcomes, including:

-- being allowed to enter Canada without being reported
-- being issued a 44(1) Report, which in turn leads to an interview with another officer (may be by telephone) who can decide whether to issue a Departure Order or allow you to keep PR status​

The later first: if you are issued a 44(1) Report and interviewed by another officer, and issued a Departure Order, you will be allowed to enter Canada and you should then appeal (if you want to try keeping PR status). If in contrast that officer accepts your explanation of reasons for why you remained abroad as sufficient to allow you to keep PR status, you will be allowed to enter Canada AND you should be able to then proceed to apply for a new PR card with low risk, based on that PoE officer's formal H&C decision.

If you are simply waived into Canada by a PIL officer or if referred to Secondary and questioned, and that officer also more or less waives you into Canada without making any formal report, count your blessings AND WAIT TWO YEARS, or at least nearly two years, BEFORE APPLYING FOR A NEW PR CARD. Use your current PR card to get set up for provincial health care and a drivers license. And a SIN if you did not already get one. Then avoid travel outside Canada for TWO YEARS. Avoid making any applications to IRCC for TWO YEARS. Get yourself into compliance with the PR RO before you engage in any further transactions with CBSA or IRCC.


MORE RE RO CREDIT FOR TIME EMPLOYED BY CANADIAN SUBSIDIARY: This comment is mostly for emphasis. I suspect you may not fully recognize or accept the caution offered by @canuck78 and @Bs65 and myself, that your employment with a Canadian subsidiary abroad will NOT qualify for the employed-abroad-by-Canadian-business credit toward RO compliance. If indeed you have doubts about this, again there is a lot of information in this forum about this issue and, more to the point, how difficult it is to actually qualify for the credit. Just being employed by a Canadian business is NOT enough to get the credit. As I mentioned, there is a topic I started to address this subject in-depth. See:
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/working-abroad-ro-credit-including-business-trips-an-update.607559/

Sample quote:

CAUTION: Actually qualifying for the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit toward PR RO tends to be very tricky for any PR who actually needs the credit. It warrants noting, for example, even though I am very confident there is NO rule or policy which precludes the credit for "business trips," that does NOT mean business trips will qualify for the credit. The requirements are complex AND OFTEN STRICTLY APPLIED, depending on the FACTS in the particular case, which are typically also complex.

 

[valpyan]

Hi Canuck78, Bs65, Dpenabill:

Thanks a lot for the detailed responses. It gives a fair idea what I could be getting into. There are 2 more points I'd like to add:
I have been working for the Canadian subsidiary since 2010 and still continue to do so (so even while in Canada, I was working at the HQ). Let us call this company A. The company which will make me an offer (let us call it B) in Canada is also related to Company A. I have had continuous employment since 2010. Will this make a difference?
When I move in few weeks, I will not be able to sit out the 1.5 year period in Canada, as my role will require me to travel abroad. This will be a challenge.
What can I ask my company to do to support me?
Thanks again for all your help! I really appreciate it.

 

[canuck78]

Hi Canuck78, Bs65, Dpenabill:

Thanks a lot for the detailed responses. It gives a fair idea what I could be getting into. There are 2 more points I'd like to add:
I have been working for the Canadian subsidiary since 2010 and still continue to do so (so even while in Canada, I was working at the HQ). Let us call this company A. The company which will make me an offer (let us call it B) in Canada is also related to Company A. I have had continuous employment since 2010. Will this make a difference?
When I move in few weeks, I will not be able to sit out the 1.5 year period in Canada, as my role will require me to travel abroad. This will be a challenge.
What can I ask my company to do to support me?
Thanks again for all your help! I really appreciate it.

You said you landed in 2015 for a few weeks. How long did you live and work in Canada when you became a PR before you were transferred abroad. Very hard to comment but still don’t think you qualify. No your employer can not help you obtain a valid PR card. Canada has a very lenient RO and there are consequences if you don’t maintain your RO.

 

[Bs65]

Just for clarity where was your salary paid , in Canada or outside Canada. Whilst working abroad did the Canadian based company pay you allowances for being assigned abroad to this subsidiary? Where did you pay or report any tax liabailities ? Can you show in all these years how you maintained a connection with the Canadian HQ through travel back to Canada which might be considered normal for an assignee. The fact that you were only in Canada for weeks seems you did not even establish a residence in the country another negative.

These are factors that can decide whether this was a genuine assignment or more like some permanent role.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi Canuck78, Bs65, Dpenabill:

Thanks a lot for the detailed responses. It gives a fair idea what I could be getting into. There are 2 more points I'd like to add:
I have been working for the Canadian subsidiary since 2010 and still continue to do so (so even while in Canada, I was working at the HQ). Let us call this company A. The company which will make me an offer (let us call it B) in Canada is also related to Company A. I have had continuous employment since 2010. Will this make a difference?
When I move in few weeks, I will not be able to sit out the 1.5 year period in Canada, as my role will require me to travel abroad. This will be a challenge.
What can I ask my company to do to support me?
Thanks again for all your help! I really appreciate it.

I am NO expert and am particularly NOT qualified to offer personal advice.

You are correct, the details in the relationship between you and your employer can make a difference. The employer's "business" also makes a difference. As I previously noted, and linked, there is a far more in-depth discussion about the employed-abroad-by-Canadian-business credit toward RO in other topics here.

Bottom-line: just being employed by a Canadian business is NOT enough to qualify for the credit for time abroad in the employ of a Canadian business. The employment relationship needs to meet certain criteria. That criteria is largely captured in the terms "TEMPORARY ASSIGNMENT," but as some will say, "the devil is in the details." I cannot begin to analyze your particular situation anywhere near reliably enough . . . too many personal details can make too big a difference.

Likewise, the "Canadian business" needs to meet certain criteria, and the criteria is significantly more narrow than being organized in Canada and owned by Canadians. And again, as some will say, "the devil is in the details."

It appears you were engaged in a position located abroad. Still has that appearance. That is, it does not appear you were temporarily assigned abroad. So even if the employer meets the criteria, satisfies the "Canadian Business" requirement, it does NOT appear you will be allowed credit (but it might favourably tip the H&C scales such that you could keep your PR status, for now, depending on actual presence in Canada going forward). Still, again, "the devil is in the details," so I cannot say for sure how it will go . . . problem is, there is no way to get a definitive opinion from IRCC upfront . . . you get a decision when IRCC engages in the process of a PR Residency Determination. The PR carries the risk his or her particular employment relationship will not get credit.


Travel Abroad in Next Two Years:

Again, there is no way to get a definitive determination you will get credit before it makes a difference. If you are allowed credit for the time employed abroad by the subsidiary of a Canadian company, future travel will be OK. If not, sorry, every time you go abroad you will be taking the chance that the next time you return to Canada you get reported, leading to the loss of your PR, and each time that risk will be more than the last.

A lawyer may be able to be more confident, after going over the actual details in your situation. But that will still be just an OPINION, with no guarantees. And to be clear, this is tricky enough you should not trust any lawyer unless the lawyer does indeed closely review ALL the particular circumstances, including the letter you would need from the company describing your employment relationship.

For what that letter needs to include, in addition to being signed by an official of the business, see the checklist for a PR Travel Document application and item 10 . . . there are other sources outlining this same information but that one tends to be among the easiest sources to get to quickly through the IRCC "new immigrants" portal ( this might link to a page with a link to the checklist pdf). And while you are there, peruse the other documents regarding which it says "you may also include:" . . . but many of these will typically be required, especially those directly related to showing the business is a "Canadian Business." (While that information is specifically for applying for a PR TD, it is mostly the same as you will need for a PR card application or told to have the next time you arrive at a PoE.)

In the meantime, in the other topic I link above there are literally scores of citations and links to primary sources of official information which address many aspects of the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit.

 

[valpyan]

You said you landed in 2015 for a few weeks. How long did you live and work in Canada when you became a PR before you were transferred abroad. Very hard to comment but still don’t think you qualify. No your employer can not help you obtain a valid PR card. Canada has a very lenient RO and there are consequences if you don’t maintain your RO.

Before, I got my PR, it was in 2009-2010, for over a year. In 2015 it was for about 3 weeks, that is all.

 

[valpyan]

Just for clarity where was your salary paid , in Canada or outside Canada. Whilst working abroad did the Canadian based company pay you allowances for being assigned abroad to this subsidiary? Where did you pay or report any tax liabailities ? Can you show in all these years how you maintained a connection with the Canadian HQ through travel back to Canada which might be considered normal for an assignee. The fact that you were only in Canada for weeks seems you did not even establish a residence in the country another negative.

These are factors that can decide whether this was a genuine assignment or more like some permanent role.

I was paid salary in another country and unfortunately I did not visit Canada in the interim. But, my senior management was in Canada. You could argue that it was a permanent role, but I am getting back to Canada with this company. I am beginning to understand the challenge now.

 

[canuck78]

Before, I got my PR, it was in 2009-2010, for over a year. In 2015 it was for about 3 weeks, that is all.[/QUOTE

Highly unlikely you’d be able to use the time out of Canada because you weren’t actually transferred for a temporary position overseas.

 

[vensak]

I was paid salary in another country and unfortunately I did not visit Canada in the interim. But, my senior management was in Canada. You could argue that it was a permanent role, but I am getting back to Canada with this company. I am beginning to understand the challenge now.

Where your manager sits does not really matter. That is just internal company organization to whom you would be sending some nice sounding emails and having conf calls with.
For what CIC concerns, you could be reporting to a Santa Claus.
Come on, these days it is pretty common to report to somebody sitting in a different country.

What matter is following:
1. you would have to be hired for a position in Canada (being physically in Canada).
2. You have started that work in Canada.
3. You got temporary assignment to work abroad (for example to open a new branch there).
4. Company does intend to get you back to Canada at the end of that temporary assignment. So there will be a job position secured for you at the end of that.
5. Rule 4 has to be kept all the time even if assignment get extended.
6. And needless to say that such temporary assignments do not have a standard work contract with that local branch. (because they are not hired there). Yes they might need work visa, but that can be done with original contract as well (if needed, temporary amendments can be done).

In your case as you have stated, you just worked for a company somewhere outside Canada that happened to have a branch or a headquarter in Canada.
And so it happened, that for whatever internal reason you were assigned as a part of international team to report to a manager that was sitting in Canada.
And now that your contract there has finished (or you have resigned or you were fired), you have found a different job position in Canada with a Canadian company (and given your still PR status, you were hired).
So your case has nothing to do with PR obligation exception.

 

[valpyan]

Where your manager sits does not really matter. That is just internal company organization to whom you would be sending some nice sounding emails and having conf calls with.
For what CIC concerns, you could be reporting to a Santa Claus.
Come on, these days it is pretty common to report to somebody sitting in a different country.

What matter is following:
1. you would have to be hired for a position in Canada (being physically in Canada).
2. You have started that work in Canada.
3. You got temporary assignment to work abroad (for example to open a new branch there).
4. Company does intend to get you back to Canada at the end of that temporary assignment. So there will be a job position secured for you at the end of that.
5. Rule 4 has to be kept all the time even if assignment get extended.
6. And needless to say that such temporary assignments do not have a standard work contract with that local branch. (because they are not hired there). Yes they might need work visa, but that can be done with original contract as well (if needed, temporary amendments can be done).

In your case as you have stated, you just worked for a company somewhere outside Canada that happened to have a branch or a headquarter in Canada.
And so it happened, that for whatever internal reason you were assigned as a part of international team to report to a manager that was sitting in Canada.
And now that your contract there has finished (or you have resigned or you were fired), you have found a different job position in Canada with a Canadian company (and given your still PR status, you were hired).
So your case has nothing to do with PR obligation exception.

Hi Vensak,
This is one way of looking at it and we cannot control how the CIC looks at it. Thank you for your inputs. But, it is the same company I am getting back to ...

 

[canuck78]

Hi Vensak,
This is one way of looking at it and we cannot control how the CIC looks at it. Thank you for your inputs. But, it is the same company I am getting back to ...

The big issue is that you were not working in Canad at this company as a PR and then were transferred to another country. We have seen other misunderstand the requirement and seek out Canadian companies to work for abroad or even work for the Canadian embassy or consulate as a member of the local staff even if they had PR. Because it specifies that government jobs will be given credit. In the case of local staff at a Canadian embassy, it is specifically mentionned that it doesn't count. Would consult some Canadian immigration lawyers about your situation. Just be wary if lawyers promise that everything can be fixed and it won't be a problem. Definitely some questionable lawyers who only want get you to sign on the dotted line.

 

[Bs65]

So final comment but lets say you successfully enter the country which as a PR you are entitled to do but without being reported and you put yourself in the hands of IRCC when renewing your PR card to decide whether you have a case for working abroad on a temp assignment from a Canadian employer despite having not been paid in Canada or assume paid any Canadian taxes since 2015 which would be a giveaway that you never established any residence tax or otherwise in the country.

In the PR card renewal application there are few questions which could give you challenges

#20 Work history which based on your post could obviously show you probably never worked in Canada for any period of time for the Canadian business at the Canadian HQ

#21 Travel history where will be clear based on your post you have not been back to Canada since the few weeks post landing making it unusual for anyone on a temp assignment to not have traveled back at all in 4 years.

#22D provide address details of absences outside Canada employed by a Canadian business where it will become clear that you hardly spent any time since landing in Canada in 2015

#24 Income tax and filing history consent . Giving authority to access your CRA records which assume maybe there will be none which think would be unusual for any Canadian employee on the Canadian business payroll.

When you sign the application it is a solemn declaration so you should of course not misrepresent anything given there will be consequences in doing so.

Still seems your option assuming you get into the country without being reported will be to find a job in Canada and stay put for a couple of years to set your residency obligation before you order a new card. Even then do not forget that business trips even for a Canadian employer do not count towards the residency obligation.

Good luck but without taking the stay put option looks like an uphill challenge and maybe as per the previous poster you need to consult professional advice, being wary of any promises that advice might give .