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left canada as a minor and want to come back to study university

Gal334

Newbie
Oct 11, 2020
6
0
hello .
when i was 7 (2010) years old me and my parents lived in Canada for 5 months and then they had to leave Canada and return back because of family medical issues and then i had cancer and we never came back to Canada and the PR expired in 2014.

now everything had passed and im 17 years old and want to come back to study in The University of Toronto in two years from now .

1.is it possible to enter Canada and study as a PR?
2.what is the best way and time to do the process in order to enter Canada as a PR?
 
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Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
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There are many H&C posts on here with subject left as a minor so assume you have used the search function to research those cases.

You would probably need to apply for a PRTD to travel to Canada using H&C case to get approval and given you are 17 the sooner you apply the better although and others can comment as I am not sure maybe when you are 18 and no longer considered a minor.

Note that the current processing times for H&C case could be a couple years in part due to COVID causing delays so it may take some time to get approval, whether that timeline applies to PRTD H&C applications no idea given the processing times are quoted as one size fits all H&C

In terms of timing might even be worth considering initially a study permit in parallel to an H&C and then flipping to domestic student assuming UoT will support plus of course initial costs would be greater that route and no guarantee H&C will be approved so there is a risk

Above my view only so others may comment/correct.
 
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primaprime

VIP Member
Apr 6, 2019
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884
hello .
when i was 7 (2010) years old me and my parents lived in Canada for 5 months and then they had to leave Canada and return back because of family medical issues and then i had cancer and we never came back to Canada and the PR expired in 2014.

now everything had passed and im 17 years old and want to come back to study in The University of Toronto in two years from now .

1.is it possible to enter Canada and study as a PR?
2.what is the best way and time to do the process in order to enter Canada as a PR?
Legally, you are still a PR even if your card expired in 2014. PR status can only be revoked after you renounce it yourself, or your application for a PR travel document (PRTD) is refused and you fail to appeal in time. So I do not believe you could enter on a study permit as long as you are still a PR. You will have to apply for a PRTD with evidence as to why you deserve to keep PR status on humanitarian and compassionate (H&C) grounds, and then if you are refused, appeal that decision. This process can take over a year, so you may choose to renounce your PR instead and come to Canada as an international student. My guide to the residency obligation linked below explains the process further.

The success of an H&C appeal depends on several factors and it is impossible to predict the outcome of most cases. My general analysis would be that although you obviously did not choose to leave Canada, you also could not have independently developed strong ties here during a five month stay over ten years ago. As is their right, your parents decided it was better for you to live with them back home. It would therefore likely not be an undue hardship for you to lose PR, since you are already well-established with them abroad.

You could argue that your family remained abroad due to medical issues, but the fact remains that you haven't tried to come back even once in the last decade, and there is excellent medical care available in Canada.

A couple of other notes:
  • In similar cases, some people on this forum have suggested waiting until you turn 18 to apply for a PRTD. If you apply while you're still legally a minor, they may presume the application was made at the behest of your parents, and so you will be more explicitly judged based on their choices.
  • The purpose of PR status is to allow someone to live in Canada permanently, not just to study here or take advantage of lower tuition. If you state that you only want to come back for university, they are quite likely to refuse your PRTD application. You must want to return to Canada for good.
 

Gal334

Newbie
Oct 11, 2020
6
0
Legally, you are still a PR even if your card expired in 2014. PR status can only be revoked after you renounce it yourself, or your application for a PR travel document (PRTD) is refused and you fail to appeal in time. So I do not believe you could enter on a study permit as long as you are still a PR. You will have to apply for a PRTD with evidence as to why you deserve to keep PR status on humanitarian and compassionate (H&C) grounds, and then if you are refused, appeal that decision. This process can take over a year, so you may choose to renounce your PR instead and come to Canada as an international student. My guide to the residency obligation linked below explains the process further.

The success of an H&C appeal depends on several factors and it is impossible to predict the outcome of most cases. My general analysis would be that although you obviously did not choose to leave Canada, you also could not have independently developed strong ties here during a five month stay over ten years ago. As is their right, your parents decided it was better for you to live with them back home. It would therefore likely not be an undue hardship for you to lose PR, since you are already well-established with them abroad.

You could argue that your family remained abroad due to medical issues, but the fact remains that you haven't tried to come back even once in the last decade, and there is excellent medical care available in Canada.

A couple of other notes:
  • In similar cases, some people on this forum have suggested waiting until you turn 18 to apply for a PRTD. If you apply while you're still legally a minor, they may presume the application was made at the behest of your parents, and so you will be more explicitly judged based on their choices.
  • The purpose of PR status is to allow someone to live in Canada permanently, not just to study here or take advantage of lower tuition. If you state that you only want to come back for university, they are quite likely to refuse your PRTD application. You must want to return to Canada for good.
first of all thank you for your response .
My plan is to come to Canada probably in two years and then stay there for the purpose of study and also work and live .
I got to read more about the ways I can get to Canada and wanted to know if there is a higher chance that PRTD will be approved or is it better to enter Canada through the US border and then stay two years in Canada?

and if i choose to go on the PRTD option so when is the best time to start the process ?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
Not that long ago (but for us old folks the years seem to fly by) the removed-when-a-minor case was among the more predictable cases SO LONG AS the PR made the effort to come to Canada relatively soon AFTER attaining the age of majority or emancipation. In which cases it appeared that most, if not nearly all, had very good odds of being allowed to keep PR status.

And even in the last few years, it still appears most of these cases have an outcome favouring the young PR, allowing the removed-when-a-minor PR to keep status. But in the last few years there has been an increase in the number of reports going the other way, which appear (with insufficient consistency to draw conclusions) to mostly involve individuals who had spent very little time in Canada many years before (soft landing family with no subsequent return to Canada), and who otherwise have minimal to zero other ties to Canada (no siblings or other family in Canada for example); the latter still appears to be the less likely outcome but without reliable statistical information this is merely how it appears.

The reported successful cases are BOTH those in which the young PR applied for a PR Travel Document as well as young PRs arriving at a PoE (such as those able to travel via the U.S.).

The Difference Between PR TD Applications in Contrast to Arriving at a PoE:

In general, RO enforcement has tended to be more strict and H&C relief less forthcoming in Visa Office PR TD application decision-making compared to PoE screening. Thus, for example, PRs who do not have a particularly compelling H&C case (which is the vast majority of RO H&C cases) typically have at least somewhat better odds if they can travel to Canada via the U.S. without applying for a PR TD. Moreover, in this scenario, the PR immediately enters Canada even if Reported, and even though those days in Canada do not count toward the RO itself, they do matter for purposes of weighing H&C considerations. And if the PR is waived through without being Reported, the PR can remain in Canada for the next two years and that will totally cure the breach of the RO, and thus after that the PR can safely apply for a new PR card.

There are downsides to taking that approach. For individuals who need a more definitive future, for example, before packing up and coming to Canada, the application for a PR TD will give them a definitive answer (allowing for an appeal if the decision is negative). And, indeed, if the PR TD is issued based on H&C reasons it will be coded (usually anyway) as such and the PR can then immediately apply for a new PR card upon arrival in Canada, no need to wait two years. For many the latter is important, since it can be critical to have a valid PR card to present to schools, provincial health care insurers, and such.

It warrants noting, too, that there are signs that PoE screening has grown more strict over the years. As I observed elsewhere recently, in browsing IAD decisions it appears that the number of appeals from PoE 44(1) Reports has increased a lot compared to PR TD denial appeals. Suggesting PoE enforcement is up. So the difference in how strict they are respectively may be disappearing.


OTHERWISE . . .

I largely agree with the good observations offered by @primaprime . . . with a small quibble regarding:

The purpose of PR status is to allow someone to live in Canada permanently, not just to study here or take advantage of lower tuition. If you state that you only want to come back for university, they are quite likely to refuse your PRTD application. You must want to return to Canada for good.
For sure, the purpose for granting PR status is to enable the individual to PERMANENTLY live in Canada. And this purpose is often considered in the way the various H&C factors are evaluated.

And the returning PR's *intent* is similarly a factor taken into consideration. But how so is among the more difficult aspects to forecast or discern, even more so than many other elements which are also difficult to quantify.

Part of the reason I believe (this is not articulated, so far as I have seen, in IAD decisions) that the impact of intent is so difficult to forecast or discern is that for the most part the Residency Obligation scheme itself is structured to be independent of intent. After all, not only is the impact of the intent factor particularly hard to assess, it is well recognized that an individual's actual intent tends to be nebulous, difficult to discern, and difficult to verify.

Leading to a young PR's intent to come to Canada to study. So far as I have seen, this does NOT appear to hurt the H&C case.

While the decision itself was seven years ago now, just today I was referencing (in another topic) a case in which a PR had been previously allowed to retain status despite a breach of the RO . . . in particular, that PR "was granted a new permanent resident card (PR card) in 2013 on humanitarian and compassionate (H&C) grounds, largely on the basis of his acceptance to a graduate studies program in Canada." See Teh . . . 2020 CanLII 40074 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/j8961 That is not the best example, and especially so since it was seven years ago (albeit the IAD decision here was this year, denying this same PR's more recent appeal of a denied PR TD, in 2018). I am referencing it merely because it is an example right at hand.

Doing some research into more recent actual cases may be worthwhile, to discern whether this has changed much, but over the years it generally appeared that PRs, particularly young PRs, have not had their intent to come to Canada for school purposes considered a negative factor.
 

primaprime

VIP Member
Apr 6, 2019
3,387
884
Leading to a young PR's intent to come to Canada to study. So far as I have seen, this does NOT appear to hurt the H&C case.
It's definitely not a major consideration that would actively hurt an H&C case, but in at least a few cases involving young PRs who expressed a desire to study in Canada, it was alluded to that they were free to do so as international students.

In Lai (the same case which eventually established that a PR removed while a minor should not have their claim to relief "enhanced" by the choice of their parents to relocate abroad), the Board wrote that "The appellant likely has other options to return to Canada...as an international student." By that point, she had attended a high school in Canada for over a year.

The decision in Ayyoub mentions that the appellant "paid an application fee to seek enrollment at a Canadian post-secondary institution," but this did not weigh in her favour given the lengthy absence and lack of attempts to return. As for her brother who had become a PR at the same time and was now back in Canada as a student, "more likely than not, he had to apply for a student visa to study here."

In Leung: "Foreign students, who are not permanent residents, generally pay higher tuition fees for a university education in Canada than permanent residents...There was no evidence before the panel that she cannot continue to study in Canada subject to obtaining student visas." (This appellant was also already studying in Canada.)

In Qasim, although here the minor was a secondary applicant, "The minor appellant wants a better education which he can only get in Canada, which is not a credible claim...The big difference is that in Canada [as a] permanent resident, the minor appellant would not have to pay the foreign student tuition rates which are significantly higher than that paid by citizens and permanent residents."

Finally in Shen, "The Minister suggested that the appellant’s main goal now is to become a permanent resident of Canada, to take advantage of cheaper resident tuition rates in Canadian universities than would be the case than if she were a foreign student." The Board was equivocal on that point, but agreed that "the appellant does not have a serious interest in settling in Canada."

Overall, I wouldn't draw conclusions from this given the other circumstances in each case were likely far more relevant to their refusals, but it does show that a stated intent to return to Canada for studies has not been a positive factor in previous appeals. Especially given OP's lack of ties to Canada, and especially if they plan to apply for a PRTD, they should be as explicit as possible that they want to live and work here permanently.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
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It's definitely not a major consideration that would actively hurt an H&C case, but in at least a few cases involving young PRs who expressed a desire to study in Canada, it was alluded to that they were free to do so as international students.

. . . [for full post follow link]

Overall, I wouldn't draw conclusions from this given the other circumstances in each case were likely far more relevant to their refusals, but it does show that a stated intent to return to Canada for studies has not been a positive factor in previous appeals. Especially given OP's lack of ties to Canada, and especially if they plan to apply for a PRTD, they should be as explicit as possible that they want to live and work here permanently.
To be clear: In NONE of these cases was intent to come to Canada to attend school a negative factor.

Referencing:
Lai 2005 CanLII 77672 (CA IRB)
Ayyoub 2018 CanLII 101202 (CA IRB) (NOT a removed-as-a-minor seeking return to Canada soon after attaining independence case)
Leung 2006 CanLII 52293 (CA IRB)
Qasim 2013 CanLII 100566 (CA IRB) (NOT a removed-as-a-minor seeking return to Canada soon after attaining independence case)
Shen 2016 CanLII 93226 (CA IRB)

As I previously observed, regarding a returning PR's "intent to come to Canada to study. So far as I have seen, this does NOT appear to hurt the H&C case."

And there is nothing, nothing at all in those cases, suggesting otherwise.

Otherwise it is important, really, really important, for PRs seeking H&C relief for a failure to comply with the PR Residency Obligation, to focus on TRUTHFULLY and HONESTLY providing the information the PR believes is relevant to making his or her best H&C case. (While "truthfully" (being accurate) and "honestly" (being free from deceit, including free from implicit deceit, deception by omission, or otherwise gaming-the-system) may seem like redundant terms to many, they aren't, as many a crafty lawyer is wont to exploit.)

Even as to intention. I would say especially as to intention except that the imperative to be truthful and honest especially applies to every aspect of the information a PR submits.

While there are so many other factors which can and likely will have influence in how things go for a particular PR, in a removed-as-a-minor seeking return to Canada soon after attaining independence case, my impression is that an honest statement of intent to come to Canada to attend university will help to make a better case than an insincere expression of an intent to live in Canada permanently.

Lawyers might disagree. And, if one obtains the assistance of a lawyer (hired, paid-for, not a free consultation which is worth little or no more than what one pays for it), and the lawyer advises otherwise, probably better to go with the lawyer's advice.

But short of having a paid-for lawyer's advice about what to say and how to say it, in that specific situation, generally it will be better to stick to the truth as best as the PR knows it, as honestly as the PR can describe things, including the PR's plans or intentions. And for many young people, a plan or intent to attend university is about as long-term any concrete plans or intentions go. Sure, more than a few have plans beyond that. Many do not. Best to be honest and NOT make stuff up.

Beyond that . . . beyond that goes beyond the scope of the OP's query, into the weeds some, or potentially into the weeds a lot depending on how deep into it one goes. Regarding "intent" especially. Again as I previously noted:
"And the returning PR's *intent* is similarly a factor taken into consideration. But how so is among the more difficult aspects to forecast or discern, even more so than many other elements which are also difficult to quantify."​

The "intent" element is complicated enough that absent some specific guidance from a qualified lawyer, a paid-for lawyer hired to assist in the specific instance, it is best to just simply be truthful and honest. That is, follow a lawyer's advice if that is bought and paid-for (as long as it does not involve engaging in fraud or misrepresentation), BUT otherwise just be as truthful and honest as one can be.

REMINDER: Factors which can be a *negative* in the H&C case are balanced and considered in context with all other considerations. Other than the extent of the breach itself, what matters most is what weighs in favour of allowing H&C relief. Most other negative factors tend to have a largely neutral impact, with some exceptions (gets complicated; some negative factors are more about offsetting or tending to negate this or that positive factor).

Perhaps the biggest negative factor that can sabotage an otherwise good H&C case is compromised credibility. Whatever the PR does, hiding things, even if negative, tends to be risky. Canadian officials are far better at seeing through things than many apprehend. And there is very little that will HURT the PR's H&C case more than appearing the least bit deceptive, or appearing to be gaming-the-system, let alone being outright deceptive.



For clarification:


Three of the cited cases ( Lai 2005 CanLII 77672 (CA IRB), Leung 2006 CanLII 52293 (CA IRB) and Shen 2016 CanLII 93226 (CA IRB)) are about PRs removed-as-a-minor seeking return to Canada soon after attaining independence. Overall the outcome in these cases is contrary to how it appears most of these cases turn out. More needs to be said about this. Especially the statement that it is "established" that a minor should not have their claim to relief "enhanced" by the parents' choice to relocate abroad, which I would urge is something that is NOT at all "established."

Among the others one (Qasim 2013 CanLII 100566 (CA IRB) ) is about a minor's application WITH a parent's application (cases which, with some exceptions, tend to depend more or less on the outcome of the parent's H&C case). The other (Ayyoub 2018 CanLII 101202 (CA IRB)) is a PR who not only was a little older but who also had already traveled internationally to attend school after attaining the age of majority.

Again, nonetheless, in NONE of these cases was intent to come to Canada to attend school a negative factor.

As I said in my previous post: "[regarding] a young PR's intent to come to Canada to study. So far as I have seen, this does NOT appear to hurt the H&C case."

HOWEVER, an important however, a KEY however: these cases (the three that are relevant) illustrate that being removed as a minor does NOT guarantee H&C relief allowing the PR to retain status. In particular, these cases illustrate the variability and vagaries of obtaining relief from a failure to comply with the PR Residency Obligation. Thus, even though it still appears that the removed-as-a-minor PR seeking return to Canada soon after attaining independence generally has GOOD ODDS of a favourable outcome, some cases go the other way, and as I previously observed . . . in recent years there have been an increasing number of such cases with negative outcomes which appear "to mostly involve individuals who had spent very little time in Canada many years before (soft landing family with no subsequent return to Canada), and who otherwise have minimal to zero other ties to Canada . . . "

To be continued . . .
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
Into the Weeds . . .

In my previous post I said it is not "established" that the choices of parents will not "enhance" the young PR's H&C case. What is "established" law in regard to evaluating H&C claims in the RO-breach case is complicated and a tangent prone to be more misleading than illuminating.

[Basically the Federal Court decisions do not "establish" binding precedent, and otherwise the impact they have on IRCC, CBSA, or the IAD, varies considerably, depending . . . which, again, goes down a tangent that will not illuminate much that is practically useful. Some IAD panels state they are "bound" by Justice Barnes statement in Lai 2006 FC 1359, where he stated that the child's "claim to relief should not be enhanced by those parental decisions," even in some cases which fall outside the scope of the ruling itself where the IAD panel is not dealing with a minor child's claim but an independent adult. And overall, how FC decisions affect IAD decision-making is more complicated than that. Again, that is a tangent tending to be more confusing than helpful. And for purposes of the particular issue being addressed here, the impact of being removed-as-a-minor on an adult's H&C claim, there is plenty enough clarification otherwise.]

As a practical matter, with exceptions and subject to trends I have addressed in depth before, elsewhere, it nonetheless warrants much emphasis that so far as we can discern, including anecdotal reports here (including one successful report just this week by a PR issued a PR TD soon after reaching the age of majority, who had spent one year in Canada as a minor and was absent from Canada since then) as well as what can be extrapolated from IAD decisions AND also some Federal Court decisions, a removed-as-a-minor PR seeking to return to Canada soon after attaining independence or the age of majority, generally appears to have good or perhaps very good odds of being issued a PR Travel Document based on H&C reasons despite failing to meet the PR Residency Obligation.

But it also warrants cautioning, nonetheless, that there is NO guarantee. Some cases go the other way. And the reporting suggests this may be increasingly so in regards to individuals with minimal establishment in Canada, who had spent a minimal amount of time in Canada many years before (such as soft landing family with no subsequent return to Canada), very little time in Canada within the relevant five years, and who otherwise have minimal to zero other ties to Canada.

It also warrants emphasis that the longer it goes after reaching the age of majority, the older the PR is before pursuing a return to Canada, the lower the odds of a favourable outcome.

It further warrants emphasizing the dominant factor in these cases is showing that the PR made the effort to return to Canada "at the first opportunity" AFTER attaining the age of majority. And emphasizing that the absence from Canada is, otherwise, largely a neutral factor.

As I previously noted, the Lai 2005 CanLII 77672 (CA IRB) case invites some further clarification:
In Lai (the same case which eventually established that a PR removed while a minor should not have their claim to relief "enhanced" by the choice of their parents to relocate abroad), the Board wrote that "The appellant likely has other options to return to Canada...as an international student." By that point, she had attended a high school in Canada for over a year.
This decision was largely focused on issues related to applying the new PR Residency Obligation on an individual granted PR status under the previous law. For present-day matters this is largely OLD, OLD stuff. Not much relevant, though some may find the discussion in that case regarding the role of intent, under the old law, informative when contrasted to the changes.

Moreover, this is not actually a case in which a PR removed-as-a-minor is seeking H&C relief soon after attaining the age of majority. Lai was a minor (still a child) when the underlying inadmissibility decision was made, and indeed still only 17 at the time of the IAD hearing.

Which provides some context for the reference to the parents' choices in the later Federal Court decision, Lai 2006 FC 1359, by Justice Barnes, where it was stated that the child's "claim to relief should not be enhanced by those parental decisions."

While this particular statement has been oft cited by IAD panels, whether or not it is an "established" or binding rule is far less important than what it means assuming it is a definitive rule.

The simple version is that it means the reason for the minor being abroad is essentially neutral. Well, almost neutral even if not quite.

But that tends to gloss over the real impact of how being removed-as-a-minor affects a PR's claim for H&C relief in order to return to Canada "at the first opportunity" AFTER attaining the age of majority (for emphasis: again, in most but not all such cases).

For example, some insight into what this (the claim to relief should not be enhanced by parental decisions) means is offered in the relatively recent (fall 2019) IAD decision Faisal 2019 CanLII 130873, which quotes Justice Barnes. Cutting through the rhetoric and legalese, allowing that it still seems relief is largely, usually, allowed, this is because (as stated in Faisal 2019 CanLII 130873):
Regardless of what the appellant’s parents had in mind when they removed her from Canada, she had no real agency in making decisions as she was a minor.
Fairness dictates that she should not have to answer for her parents’ actions.
So saying that the parents' choices do not "enhance" the young PR's H&C case, per se, is basically beside the point, since the length of the absence is essentially obviated by the fact it was due to the parents' choices not the PR's, and this largely eliminates the biggest negative factor in these cases: how long the PR was not IN Canada.

Leading to the IAD panel's reasoning in Faisal (which I believes is the more common approach to these cases, recognizing again, however, there are cases which go the other way):
Given the particular circumstances, the appellant does not have many of the positive factors that are usually required for special relief to be granted.
But despite that H&C relief is granted because
"Fairness dictates that she should not have to answer for her parents’ actions."

That is, even if one does not describe the effect of being removed-as-a-minor, by a parent's choice, as "enhancing "the H&C claim, this specific circumstance is the main reason why such PRs are allowed H&C relief notwithstanding a breach of the RO which otherwise would almost certainly result in the loss of PR status, so long as they make the effort to return to Canada soon AFTER attaining the age of majority (and again emphasizing that while this appears to be the usual result, some cases do go the other way).
 
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